Is university worth it?

Ninja Aiden said:

PAH. FOUR YEARS TO PAY OF £44K?! ARE YOU JOKING?!

Lmao, the average post-grad in the UK does NOT pay off £44k in four years. Hell, not even the upper-class people could pay that off in four years jesus christ! That is not how it works at all, I'm afraid, and I wish it did, otherwise I'd have been the first one racking up a ****-ton of debt to get an amazing job like that. I've spoken to people first hand paying back student loan, and people fresh out of university, and heard mainly the same thing: they can't get a job, and paying back the debt is very hard.

Like seriously, think about this. £44k debt repaid in four years? That's £11k per year. That's over half of the average post-grad's wage, IF they even get a job! Now trust me, I know the figures, because I researched them fully along with help from first-years at uni and family and friends, and they really are not that high any more. The number of people coming out of university and going into jobs is definitely NOT 61%. Less than half go into jobs after 6 months now.

Higher lifetime payout? I'm not sure where you got the information that this directly correlates with a uni degree, but that's kinda false, and would be a huge prejudice within the working world. Of course, if you want to move up to a different job within your unit that requires a degree, then yes, you won't be able to move up, but then that also applies to post-grads who also don't have said degree.

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First of all, I'm not sure how you construed what I posted as meaning that grads pay off 44k in four literal years. What I said is that four years of 12k better pay every year goes into paying off debt, and the remaining x minus four years goes to, well, life. Also, I included links in my previous posts, so you know where I've been getting this information. Also, I find it difficult to take it at your word to just "trust you" on your research, because I've been citing my figures with links I've found this very day. So if it's definitely not 61%, find a source that corroborates with that. It's bad form to criticize someone else's sources just to say trust me when you're asked to provide your own.

Ninja Aiden said:

You seem to think that having a degree anywhere means super jobs, super wages, no worries. I don't know about America, but I can tell you that in England, that is not the case. Getting a job in England is extremely competitive, and you have to be the best of the best at the moment to find a decent one. This involves experience, and having every extra qualification you can think of to show that you're not just some run-of-the-mill post-grad. The same applies here in Germany to a lesser extent. Here in Germany, a lot of focus is put onto apprenticeships, because the government realises that university just isn't getting students the future and jobs that apprenticeships can. A lot of students now take on apprenticeships here, because it's a much more rewarding scheme, that doesn't land you in debt that you can't pay off, and grants you entrance to the working world a lot more successfully than uni does.

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I don't seem to think that at all. I'm telling you what I think the numbers tell me. You talk a lot of qualitative description, but do you have anything objective to back it up?

Ninja Aiden said:

Germany doesn't emphasise university, because it realises that university is a dying cause, and more and more people are looking to apprenticeships, because they are more successful, and more rewarding to the apprentice.

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Well, apprenticeship has been part of German culture ever since, well, the Middle Ages, so I'd definitely not attribute their continued emphasis of apprenticeship completely to anything recent. Apprenticeships have been successful in Germany for hundreds of years, and their system is just well-developed compared to other countries. That has been the case even before university became accessible to most people.

I'm also baffled at how the average student debt in the UK is so high when tuition in the United States is higher. From topuniversities.com: "For home students, institutions in England and Wales can charge up to a maximum of UK£9,000 (US$13,430) per year for undergraduate degree programs." It's nice to know there are caps on tuition in the UK, but anybody who's familiar with American private colleges will know that annual tuition runs several multiples of that number.

"As scary as 44k looks, it only takes four years of the average 12k annual increase in lifetime earnings to pay back student loans"

That's what you said, and where I got the idea you were saying it takes four years to pay off student loans. If I misinterpreted that, my bad, but it reads to me like you're saying that it takes four years to pay of Student loans.

Also, I'm not sure why you're asking me for objective data, when this question; "Is University Worth It?" is clearly subjective, and to want objective data and responses to a subjective question is just bizarre. I've told you my experience, findings and thoughts on the matter, and that's that. Arguing with you isn't going to change the fact that I do not consider university to be worth the time or money spent on it. Finding objective data also isn't going to help that fact, because what I've been told by universities and students has convinced me it's not a worthwhile cause.

If you think it is, that's fine, but don't expect an objective response when the question doesn't facilitate it.

We have our respective opinions, but we can use objective data to support our points. 44k looks the same to you as it does to me. But anecdotal experience 1) cannot be verified and 2) doesn't speak on behalf of, well, society - which is what this thread is about. The point isn't to change each others minds per se, it's to have a proper discussion about it. Objective data informs a lot about our lives, like how much we eat, what the weather's going to be like tomorrow, you name it. Objective data can be reliable. And if you don't think it's reliable, then its reliability can be debatable. Those are all good things. You make a lot of claims, but the only kind of support you maintain is that of your own (and other's experience). Besides, you appeal to statistics in your posts, which ought to be objective but you don't have any sources for them.

Anyways, we're presenting opinions and conclusions, which are subjective by nature, but that's besides the point.

To me a lot of this stems from the disconnect we have with the perception of success. We have romanticized the kind of white collar work that requires college degrees so hard that it's created an inertia to succeed in the more professional occupations. Working with your hands, building things, fixing stuff, society used to honor these kinds of jobs, but has now decided to demonize them as some sort of punishment for not doing well in school. It's been jammed into our heads since we were young: go to college or you'll get a subordinate trades job, you'll live with your parents, your hair will fall off and you'll shit your pants. There is a very real skills gap in the United States because vocational trades are neither being filled nor pursued -- we are not interested in these very real opportunities because they simply do not match up with the notions of success in our own eyes. (see: welding, air traffic controlling, etc)

One thing that makes college look pretty suspect to me is the cost. I mean, it just seems like kind of a rip off? The price of college tuition has continued to increase beyond the rate of inflation, and paying for it has become more and more a pipe dream for the average person. Responding to this, the government offers us student loans, lending us money they don't have in order to train us for jobs that I'm started to doubt even exist atm. But again, the inertia to be educated is just too strong. As Ullion put it, I feel like college is the best investment only if you know exactly what you intend to pursue, but sadly a degree has become a prerequisite for the white collar jobs we all seem to want so much. I'm currently training to be a pilot, a fucking pilot, and yet I'm still required to take classes such as musical composition, computer 101, and creative writing to get a degree so that the airlines will even consider looking at me. wut?

Imagine the same conversation we are having about college applied to our own health and fitness. Can you imagine how silly it would sound if someone told you that you had to spend hoards of money on the best gyms in the country just to be healthy? Because this is how the whole college thing is sorta sounding to me. I'm not against an expensive gym membership and I'm not against college. But, it's not for everyone now is it.

As far as what we can do about this, man I just don't know. The pressure to go to college and get a degree -- combined with the companies expectation for you to do so -- is just too strong. But it's just not working. I meet lots of people from the University in town and most of them don't even know what they want to do, yet they continue to drown themselves in debt and pursue their degree because that is what they are taught is the best option. (philosophy major? lol)

Kanzler said:

What about a more global level? Do you think a university education should be sought after by most people? Should most of our workforce consist of university graduates, and should most of the population pursue a university degree?

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Definitely not. I think a society in which practically everyone goes from school to university isn't economically plausible since we need people to fill the menial jobs that essentially make the world go round. Even considering people who work and study simultaneously, more people in university is still going to mean less people filling those jobs and that could potentially be quite problematic.

I think I already answered your last two points in my previous points. For a very large number of jobs you really don't need a university degree and some unrelated degree isn't going to help you get into any of these jobs. If I was running a retail business, I would much sooner give a position to a person with retail experience than to a person with a degree in biochemistry that had never worked in a store in their lives.

gimmepie said:

Definitely not. I think a society in which practically everyone goes from school to university isn't economically plausible since we need people to fill the menial jobs that essentially make the world go round. Even considering people who work and study simultaneously, more people in university is still going to mean less people filling those jobs and that could potentially be quite problematic.

I think I already answered your last two points in my previous points. For a very large number of jobs you really don't need a university degree and some unrelated degree isn't going to help you get into any of these jobs. If I was running a retail business, I would much sooner give a position to a person with retail experience than to a person with a degree in biochemistry that had never worked in a store in their lives.

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Good thing I have that degree in biochemistry AND worked in a store in my life, eh?

But that's exactly what we've been seeing happening. Not practically everyone goes from school to university yet, but it's become the trend as labour intensive jobs become outsourced or mechanized. Those jobs will always exist as long as there's a demand for them. However, jobs requiring university degrees pay more, and and having more of them is good for the economy if you like having nice things.

I'm coming very late to this debate, so I will end up referring to points made by others but I'm not going to go and quote everything. I will be using examples of people I know in some of these arguments, as everyone except Kanzler has done the same. ;-)

The first argument I want to address is that someone with years of experience > a university degree. It depends.

• My dad is a high school drop-out and spent approximately 15 or so years in IT in the 80s and 90s. When he was made redundant from his company in the early 2000s he was unable to secure another job in this industry because he had no formal education in the field. He now works in a completely different area.
  
• One of my classmates during my undergraduate at university studying engineering was a mature age student. He had already had experience working with companies like Rio Tinto, but had no engineering degree. He needed to attend university in order to further his career.
  
• I work for an engineering consultancy that sells design services and technical advice to clients. If you don't have an engineering degree, regardless of the roles you may have on projects, you will be classified and paid as a "technical officer". Furthermore, if applying for a position hands on engineering skills are not sought after unless the person also has a qualification (there are exceptions - but to my knowledge they're very rare).
  
• Conversely to the point above, contracting firms would be far more likely to get someone with practical experience, but you may be limited in progression to particular roles, such as design by lack of a degree.
  
• Sometimes companies also have weird biases. For example, in talking to the mature age student above I learnt that companies like Rio Tinto would more likely hire a graduate with a bachelors degree than a PhD, simply because of an impression that PhDs are pigeon holed and cannot adapt to new work types (which is a load of BS). Similarly there will be biases against those without degrees to those with.
  

More specific to NinjaAiden's comments (however Australia doesn't have such a thing as engineering apprenticeships, so my specific knowledge is limited):

• If you want to be registered as a chartered engineer you need a degree (granted, requirements of chartered engineer status will vary country to country you definitely need a degree in the UK to be eligible). That said, in Australia at least, you don't need to be chartered to work as an engineer.
  

Whether a university degree is worth it or not comes down to where you want to go in life. If a person can achieve the career you want without one, then no, it's not worth it to that person. However, having one, as previously mentioned, gives you more options and can be an advantage. For example, if two people are applying for the same job and they have similar experience and capabilities, except one has a degree, chances are the person with the degree will receive preference. Of course so many people have degrees these days that generally both applicants will have a degree. Therefore, while someone with a degree may not be given preference, someone else is also not being giving preference because of their degree, if that makes sense.

On the question as to whether university education benefits society as a whole? Of course it does. All education does. To say otherwise is silly.

As someone who is about to start college in the fall, I don't have much of an opinion about its usefulness, but I think it is beneficial in the long run. After graduation, a lot of job opportunities, specifically those paying higher salaries, open up to you, so I think that should be taken into account.

I do agree though, that college tuition is ridiculous and sadly it will only continue to rise.

i honestly learned much more from writing programs in my spare time and having a job than anything learned in school, although it depends on a lot of factors

Yes and no. Yes, it helps, because that's what employers are going to look out, but at the same time, there are many instances where those people complain about university graduands, because they aren't capable of doing what the employers wants. Programming is one of these examples, where a lot people are not capable of solving certain problems programmatically, even though they should be able to.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you went to university or not, what matters is, that you can convince people that you're capable of doing the job.

R.F. said:

Yes and no. Yes, it helps, because that's what employers are going to look out, but at the same time, there are many instances where those people complain about university graduands, because they aren't capable of doing what the employers wants. Programming is one of these examples, where a lot people are not capable of solving certain problems programmatically, even though they should be able to.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you went to university or not, what matters is, that you can convince people that you're capable of doing the job.

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Aren't you creating a false dilemma here? Doesn't going to university help convince people that you're capable of doing the job? Realistically speaking, I don't think it's an either-or scenario.

Kanzler said:

Aren't you creating a false dilemma here? Doesn't going to university help convince people that you're capable of doing the job? Realistically speaking, I don't think it's an either-or scenario.

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University is meant to educate people in such a way that they become the next generation professors and inventors. The main goal is to teach theoretical aspects, whereas employers demand people who have practical experiences, which a lot of university graduands don't have. In general that doesn't imply, that those people are incapable of doing the job, per se, it just means they need some time in order to get used to it, which a lot of employers don't want to waste their time on. If there's another one who wasn't on university, but who already has some experience, they'll most certainly consider that person.

Granted, I can only speak of my own area, where employers have expectations that might be a little bit too high, which is why we often hear them complaining about not being able to find new employees who are capable to handle the job.

There was a study (really just some math) done by Mental Floss about this question, OP (rationally). In the US, if a BA got you $2/hr more, then it was worth it. Though you need to remember that as cost of education goes up, so will the wages. So the static $2/hr would actually be some kind of a % to better indicate whether it was worth it or not.

It's easy to think that having a degree would more likely get you a job initially (it does, even if slightly). But we forget that bigger companies that are industry specific would pay you more if you were to further your education even though you already work there. An example being my mom, she is a dental hygienist. She already makes quite a bit of money without an official degree, but if she were to get a degree now it would increase her wages. Which is also why "overqualified" is a real thing (even if the employee is totally willing).

The social problem today that "everyone has a degree" is real. Back in the day, it is easy to differentiate one from another just by looking at "has a BA." The bar has risen and BA is almost the norm. However, to get past this initial "judgment" what you need is connections. I don't mean the dirty definition either. It's trust. If a real friend that you trust tells you that they have someone that they trust who needs a place to stay for the night, would you let them use your house? But if some acquaintance does the same thing, would you? Having connections really does get you farther.

I went to university immediately after graduating high school. It's what I thought I was supposed to do.

There were many positives; all in all, it was a good life experience. But more studying, more education, was not the thing I needed most - especially with the price tag of $10000 per semester.

I find myself now scraping to get by every day, surviving on my own resourcefulness and the kindness of those around me. I didn't leave college with a degree, only a debt that currently seems insurmountable.

The average 18 year-old is in no position to make decisions on their future careers. Compared to what I know now, I didn't even know who I was back then, let alone what path I would take in life. I had no drive, no focus, no significant intentions about the future world and my place in it. I thought I did of course, but in retrospect it was simply play-acting at being an adult. In addition, my parents were very controlling and most of my time was spent relishing my new-found freedom.

I would honestly be in favor of a mandate that requires high-school graduates to wait 18 months before entitling in college. I believe that most teenage minds need time and experience to successfully navigate the college life.