Fanfiction Lounge

Pfff, I should have known that no one would read my long post. Bay! Astinus! Where are you, you read my last long post!

NO CAKE FOR ANYONE! BAH!

And it was a beautiful cake too.

So I just finished the initial draft of TRINITY chapter 5 and good fraking lord does it have a ton of dialogue. It's one of those chapters that I need to both introduce a lot of new stuff and tie all of it into old stuff that needs to be recapped to an extent before I move on with the plot, so...yeah. It doesn't help that a good part of the chapter is of two new characters questioning Tashima about what the hell went on up to that point, and then going on to explain their plan for the future.

What's terrible is that the next chapter may also end up with loads of dialogue as it'll probably be focused on developing the three new characters I introduced with this chapter further. Arrow, Ava, and Kyle... Be glad I changed Kyle's name from what it used to be: Andy. I think I may have mentioned in here before that I was introducing an androgynous new character soon. Well, that would be Arrow. And he's just crazy it turns out. And a Ditto. Yeah, I don't think you see those in fanfics too much.

So... TRINITY chapter 5. Expect it this weekend, all few of you who actually read it (Yes, I'm looking at you Typhlosion/random Japanese garble). You'd think winning the SWC would do more for my popularity. <_<

What does it take to be popular here?! ;_;

When it comes to your writing, is there anything you do that annoys you? Like a pet peeve?
Long chapters with loads of dialogue. Yet I can't stop doing them, especially around the beginning of a fic. ;_;

Describing forests and generic interior environments also annoy me. True, I can get pretty fancy with describing forests, but the problem is that they're all the same! I can only talk about the birds hopping between branches overhead as a soft breeze rustles the bright green leaves so many times before I go crazy. Same for generic interior environments. Namely, hallways. Good god I hate hallways. You think by now I would just stop designing my interior environments with so many hallways but the truth is that buildings do have tons of hallways! What do you expect me to do?!

How intelligent do you see Pokémon as being?
On the same level of humans for the most part, being fully sentient, sapient, and self-aware. Some are perhaps less so than others, but all Pokemon regardless of IQ are self-aware at least.

I don't get how you people can write about Pokemon as being mere animals. You say that's how they are in the games, but there's nothing really that proves that. The games are far too limited to show one way or the other, so saying their animals is just your own view.

I've never gotten the whole concept of "game canon"... The only game canon really is the plot, and perhaps the battle system and stats. Everything else is far too ambiguous to really use without expanding on it, in which case you're getting outside of canon anyway. Why would you want to describe them as animals anyway? :( It's just...cold. You're removing an entire set of characters from your fic. Even if you can't understand the Pokemon, simply having them as sentient and intelligent means that their actions would give them character. As animals, they're just...robots, programmed to act according to their basic desires and a sense of self-preservation. It's sort of like, why even write Pokemon if you just use them as tools...

The people here who actually know me well (probably just Astinus) may understand why I get so worked up about this. :S

Redstar said:

As stated in the games and used in the manga, gym badges are talismans that basically put pressure on or even brainwash Pokemon.

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No they don't. Badges are merely a sign that a trainer has a certain level of competence, and so Pokemon which don't know the trainer so well (traded Pokemon) can trust that the trainer know what they're doing and is worth listening to. Note that Pokemon you caught don't care how many badges you have, they trust you because they know you well so they don't need any fancy proof that you're good.

The game certainly doesn't even imply that they brainwash the Pokemon; the only place that really happens is within Colosseum and XD with the Shadow Pokemon, in which it's a rather evil thing that it's your ultimate goal to cure the Pokemon of. I don't think Nintendo would ever imply that such an evil concept is good and accepted within the context of a kid's series.

Really, you think too much like Silver. :S Pokemon aren't just tools, man! They deserve to be loved! The power of love can conquer all! Except Ixodida in Val's Anime Ex Machina. Because they're badass aliens. Who, might I add, also have a tendency to brainwash their hosts it seems. Except Adam, because he's weird and mysterious and I'm sure in no way a Biblical allegory.

Why do Pokemon obey their trainers, especially if they know they are going to loose or get hurt?
The biggest thing in TFC is pretty much loyalty. Keep in mind, though, that in TFC you can't just walk into the nearest field and expect to catch a Pokemon, or even run into one at all. Starters have that bond with their trainer of course and follow them because they're friends, but with other Pokemon it's mostly because they have a sense of loyalty or other sort of bond to the trainer. Take Jehiel, he feels loyal to Shrike since Shrike managed to beat and capture him. Since Jehiel prizes strength, he feels obligated to follow someone stronger than himself. Then there's Ramiel, who's loyal to Shrike because he saves him from being killed. Matariel is loyal to Rayne because of the bond and connection they have, which I can't get into too much. Fury for Aira is pretty much the same as Ramiel for Shrike, in that she saved him.

Each Pokemon generally has their own reason for following their trainer, which can range from a simple friendship to not even following them at all and vehemently refusing to obey their orders (which is in canon too. See: Charizard)

Shrike Flamestar said:

No they don't. Badges are merely a sign that a trainer has a certain level of competence, and so Pokemon which don't know the trainer so well (traded Pokemon) can trust that the trainer know what they're doing and is worth listening to. Note that Pokemon you caught don't care how many badges you have, they trust you because they know you well so they don't need any fancy proof that you're good.

The game certainly doesn't even imply that they brainwash the Pokemon; the only place that really happens is within Colosseum and XD with the Shadow Pokemon, in which it's a rather evil thing that it's your ultimate goal to cure the Pokemon of. I don't think Nintendo would ever imply that such an evil concept is good and accepted within the context of a kid's series.

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I really don't think an animal is going to care if you flash a little trinket at them... The manga basically says they let you control Pokemon, so I assume it's the same in the games. The only thing I can really say for sure the games say are that they boost your Pokemon's stats a bit.

And as I said, nothing in the games say that Pokemon are just animals either. The games are far too simplistic and ambiguous, and you can't say they they're animals in game canon just because nothing says they're sentient. Nothing says they're dumb animals either.

I had said that in my post X_x Am I the only one who reads my own posts?

Shrike Flamestar said:

I've never gotten the whole concept of "game canon"... The only game canon really is the plot, and perhaps the battle system and stats. Everything else is far too ambiguous to really use without expanding on it, in which case you're getting outside of canon anyway. Why would you want to describe them as animals anyway? :( It's just...cold. You're removing an entire set of characters from your fic. Even if you can't understand the Pokemon, simply having them as sentient and intelligent means that their actions would give them character. As animals, they're just...robots, programmed to act according to their basic desires and a sense of self-preservation. It's sort of like, why even write Pokemon if you just use them as tools...

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That's a rather cold way to think about animals... Just because I feel Pokemon are animals and non-sentient, doesn't mean I don't think they have a soul (or soul-like entity in Pokemon canon) or motivation. I feel most are animals, while some are like dolphins or chimpanzees.

Shrike Flamestar said:

And as I said, nothing in the games say that Pokemon are just animals either. The games are far too simplistic and ambiguous, and you can't say they they're animals in game canon just because nothing says they're sentient. Nothing says they're dumb animals either.

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Well I'm just going on RBY and GSC, but Pokemon are pretty much treated like animals in those gens. My friends that have played the later games say they're still treated that way, though a bit more gracefully because of the anime.

R/B influenced the anime, which influenced Yellow (introducing the concept of friendship). That in turn influenced the anime more, which influenced G/S/C to a lesser extent, which again influenced the anime. Then grumpy parents etc influenced both the games and the anime, etc etc, blah blah blah, and we end up where we are now: a far softer Pokemon world, yet darker. Like chocolate.

Shrike, I read your last post about Aura, but forgot to comment! >.> Anyways, I thought your take on Aura is interesting, though a bit confusing. ^^; I'll need to re-read the post, though. Also, about your dialogue problem: don't worry about it. Seriously, I'm tired of people saying, "my chapter sucks because it has too much dialogue!" Most of the time dialogue gives the readers a clue to the characters' personalities, even causal talk.

How intelligent do you see Pokémon as being?
Most of the Pokemon I see are above average human intelligence, considering most will be able to know which attack to use (whether trained or untrained), able to understand human speech, able to live in the wild perhaps even better than real life animals, and also a lot of the Pokedex entries stating a lot of them very smart and able to do great feats.

Why do Pokemon obey their trainers, especially if they know they are going to loose or get hurt?
Pretty much loyalty and a sense to protect their trainers. In my fics the trainers and Pokemon are shown to get along really well because they bonded (some faster than others, though). Also, many would not hesitate to take the bullet for their trainer.

First of all, terminology lesson:
Sentience = "Ability to feel or perceive subjectively". AKA, something that's sentient has an actual sense of self and is able to perceive things according to its own individual thoughts, and so is able to feel stuff like pain and understand that it's bad. They don't necessarily know what the pain actually is, though, they just intuitively react to it.
Sapience = Wisdom. This is what most people think of when they say sentience. Sapience infers that the being is able to actually understand and interpret what's going on and make their own complex decisions based on what they can sense. However, those decisions can be limited without...
Self awareness = Able to recognize that oneself is actually an individual being due to possessing actual consciousness. This allows the being to be able to think about themselves in more qualitative terms, which is quite useful if they're sapient.

So yeah. It's a pretty safe bet that animals are sentient, the whole debate is rather they're sapient or self-aware. I do think that most animals are indeed sapient (even if my last post may have sounded otherwise. Sorry, a bit of overreacting there), it's self-awareness that's the issue, and just what level of intelligence they possess. So if you're just going to say animals without any qualifier, well, don't be surprised that some people (me) assume the worst.

Still, if you say that most Pokemon are like my lazy pet cat Taffy (who I miss dearly when I'm not at home like now. I could really use her when I'm stressed like this...), well... That's not saying much. Even if you do think that animals are smart to an extent, you have to admit that they're incredibly simple in their thinking. Yes, dogs and cats will show affection to you, however that's probably just because you feed them and pet them and give them attention and everything. Keep in mind that those animals are domesticated and bred to be like that, though. Still, they're calm and obeying demeanor would mean that domestic animals would be equivalent to tamed Pokemon.

We're talking about wild Pokemon (for the most part) and thus wild animals though, and that's where it's interesting. Now, if you keep assuming that badges brainwash the Pokemon that's not really a problem, however as I said nothing says they brainwash anyone and so I don't feel comfortable assuming something so radical. For wild Pokemon to undergo such an extreme shift in personality from being violent like a wild animal to calm like a domesticated one when being caught, it really indicates that they have to have some sort of deeper intelligence that lets them realize they've been bested in combat by someone superior who they should look up to. That would indicate sapience, for being able to realize they lost and the trainer is better than them, and self awareness so they can actually realize what this means in relation to their own self. With all three of sentience, sapience, and self awareness you're really getting outside what I define an animal. If your concept of an animal includes all three of those already, then, well, there's really nothing to argue about here other than how I think your use of the term animal in this case is wrong, or at least needs more elaboration.

Redstar said:

Well I'm just going on RBY and GSC, but Pokemon are pretty much treated like animals in those gens. My friends that have played the later games say they're still treated that way, though a bit more gracefully because of the anime.

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The Pokemon are treated like piece of data. Humans are barely treated any better. If you go by just the games, than the humans of the Pokemon world are remarkably stupid. The problem is just a lack of detail, especially in the old games. To say that Pokemon are treated like animals just because they stand around being stupid and saying weird fragments of their Japanese names when out of their balls and doing nothing more than blindly following orders when in battle would mean that humans are equally stupid because they just stand around in one spot 24/7 saying the same thing over and over again and not caring how many times you barge into their house and examine their stuff. The games are simply limited. If a Pokemon game was made on, say, the Xbox 360 or something this probably wouldn't be such a problem, but rather it was started on the original Gameboy which isn't much to speak of. Game Freak worked with what they had, and it stuck as an iconic part of the franchise throughout the rest of the games. It's one of the reasons I find Mystery Dungeon rather interesting, because it protrays the entire franchise in a new light.

I'd also like to point out the Sinnoh myths here, which you probably don't know about seeing as their fourth gen. They're sort of Biblical-style myths regarding Sinnoh's history, and in them Pokemon are not only portrayed as being able to talk but also as intelligent for the most part. In fact, the original text for one of the myths from the Japanese version talks about Pokemon and humans marrying. Now yes, myths are myths, but the fact that people within the game actually believe those stories at least says that they probably believe Pokemon are intelligent like in the myths.

Bay said:

Shrike, I read your last post about Aura, but forgot to comment!

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Fwee! Yay! However...

Sorry, couldn't resist when I saw that in Google.

Two long posts in one night. This is annoying.

EDIT: I just want to add that I'm watching a show about soldiers in the Civil War craving sex and porn. It is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I would have changed the channel, but I was too focused on writing this. Just a hint into how I get when I write these long posts. <_< I think I'll change it now...

EDIT 2: New avatar and title, which I've been meaning to change for forever. Title is win and quite true, yes/yes? Another option was "He who uses the same avatar everywhere he goes." but that was too long. Quilava = love

Shrike Flamestar said:

First of all, terminology lesson:
Sentience = "Ability to feel or perceive subjectively". AKA, something that's sentient has an actual sense of self and is able to perceive things according to its own individual thoughts, and so is able to feel stuff like pain and understand that it's bad. They don't necessarily know what the pain actually is, though, they just intuitively react to it.
Sapience = Wisdom. This is what most people think of when they say sentience. Sapience infers that the being is able to actually understand and interpret what's going on and make their own complex decisions based on what they can sense. However, those decisions can be limited without...
Self awareness = Able to recognize that oneself is actually an individual being due to possessing actual consciousness. This allows the being to be able to think about themselves in more qualitative terms, which is quite useful if they're sapient.

Click to expand...

All the terms mean the exact same thing, and saying otherwise is really just splitting hairs.

Shrike Flamestar said:

We're talking about wild Pokemon (for the most part) and thus wild animals though, and that's where it's interesting. Now, if you keep assuming that badges brainwash the Pokemon that's not really a problem, however as I said nothing says they brainwash anyone and so I don't feel comfortable assuming something so radical. For wild Pokemon to undergo such an extreme shift in personality from being violent like a wild animal to calm like a domesticated one when being caught, it really indicates that they have to have some sort of deeper intelligence that lets them realize they've been bested in combat by someone superior who they should look up to. That would indicate sapience, for being able to realize they lost and the trainer is better than them, and self awareness so they can actually realize what this means in relation to their own self. With all three of sentience, sapience, and self awareness you're really getting outside what I define an animal. If your concept of an animal includes all three of those already, then, well, there's really nothing to argue about here other than how I think your use of the term animal in this case is wrong, or at least needs more elaboration.

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I seriously doubt that a Pokemon thinks in terms of "defeat equals friendship"... You kick a bear's ass, its not going to be your friend. It's going to maul you to death next chance it gets.

I'm really just going off canon. The manga states that badges are used to control Pokemon, and the only way this makes sense is some sort of brainwashing or puppetry.

As far as the games... I always thought badges served the same exact purpose (considering the manga goes off game notes, it's practically canon clarified). The Master Ball, however, I personally think is the most powerful badge of all.

Shrike Flamestar said:

The Pokemon are treated like piece of data. Humans are barely treated any better. If you go by just the games, than the humans of the Pokemon world are remarkably stupid. The problem is just a lack of detail, especially in the old games. To say that Pokemon are treated like animals just because they stand around being stupid and saying weird fragments of their Japanese names when out of their balls and doing nothing more than blindly following orders when in battle would mean that humans are equally stupid because they just stand around in one spot 24/7 saying the same thing over and over again and not caring how many times you barge into their house and examine their stuff. The games are simply limited. If a Pokemon game was made on, say, the Xbox 360 or something this probably wouldn't be such a problem, but rather it was started on the original Gameboy which isn't much to speak of. Game Freak worked with what they had, and it stuck as an iconic part of the franchise throughout the rest of the games. It's one of the reasons I find Mystery Dungeon rather interesting, because it protrays the entire franchise in a new light.

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Graphics have nothing to do with it. Pokemon is basically ****-fighting, and Pokemon have always (regardless of graphics) been depicted as animals. Everything in the games, from catching to battling to digitizing to grooming to frickin' breeding points to a view of Pokemon being animals.

Shrike Flamestar said:

I'd also like to point out the Sinnoh myths here, which you probably don't know about seeing as their fourth gen. They're sort of Biblical-style myths regarding Sinnoh's history, and in them Pokemon are not only portrayed as being able to talk but also as intelligent for the most part. In fact, the original text for one of the myths from the Japanese version talks about Pokemon and humans marrying. Now yes, myths are myths, but the fact that people within the game actually believe those stories at least says that they probably believe Pokemon are intelligent like in the myths.

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I'll get to those myths later, but they're probably non-canon. Zeus raped a woman in the form of a swan, yet she still got pregnant... That can't really happen, so humans marrying Pokemon is probably a similar metaphorical situation. It doesn't necessarily mean humans view Pokemon as anything more than an animal. Ancient Greeks didn't worship swans as sex gods... They killed and ate them.

Shrike Flamestar said:

EDIT: I just want to add that I'm watching a show about soldiers in the Civil War craving sex and porn. It is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. I would have changed the channel, but I was too focused on writing this. Just a hint into how I get when I write these long posts. <_< I think I'll change it now...

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I watched the same thing, both parts, long time ago. Pretty awesome.

Redstar said:

All the terms mean the exact same thing, and saying otherwise is really just splitting hairs.

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No. Just no. They are completely different, and Shrike just explained how. I'm not sure how you can honestly say otherwise when it's just been explained to you so clearly.

Arigatou, Shrike. I get the difference now.

Sparkling Dragon said:

No. Just no. They are completely different, and Shrike just explained how. I'm not sure how you can honestly say otherwise when it's just been explained to you so clearly.

Arigatou, Shrike. I get the difference now.

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I meant they're used the same way. Sentience implies self-awareness and sapience... Well. Doesn't really fit at all. It has come into science fiction terminology lately as a synonym for sentience, but the definition really doesn't fit.

Yes. Sci-fi and other fiction have fudged the three together, but their true meanings are as stated above.

I suppose, but the semantics of language aren't my concern. I know what sentience means and used it for that exact definition, so why I'm getting a terminology lesson is beyond me.

You're getting a terminology lesson because Shrike thought we could all use enlightening. And I daresay he hates to see the English language misused, much like myself.

Redstar said:

All the terms mean the exact same thing, and saying otherwise is really just splitting hairs.

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No, denying that there is a difference between them shows that you don't want to do any research. They are all components of the abstract notion of consciousness and intelligence and each serves a different role, the problem is that popular culture has for so long simply lumped everything into sentience that most people now don't even realize that it's really not what they beleive. It's like a genericized trademark...

Redstar said:

I seriously doubt that a Pokemon thinks in terms of "defeat equals friendship"... You kick a bear's ass, its not going to be your friend. It's going to maul you to death next chance it gets.

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And a bear is an animal that lacks the intelligence of a human unless you can somehow prove to me that they're as smart as us, which you can't. As I said, the only way that would work is, yes, if badges brainwash Pokemon. However, nothing in canon, NOTHING, so much as even implies that badges have some sort of magical property.

And I thought we were dealing with game canon here? If we're talking manga then there's really no question about Pokemon being intelligent anyways, they definitely are there... I'm not sure if you get this but one important thing with the games is that you do not need badges to control Pokemon you yourself caught. If you somehow managed to catch a level 100 Lugia without a single badge, it would still obey you. Badges are ONLY needed for traded Pokemon. The explanation I gave a few posts back is that traded Pokemon need that sign that you're worth trust and listening to, while Pokemon you caught know that you're woth following. Yes that's not canon, but it does make sense without taking anything to an extreme such as brainwashing.

Also, a master ball has no effect at all on if a Pokemon will obey you. As I said, a Pokemon you caught will obey you Master Ball or Poke Ball, eight badges or no badges. A traded Pokemon will only obey you if you have the badges it's level requires, even if in a Master Ball.

Redstar said:

Graphics have nothing to do with it. Pokemon is basically ****-fighting, and Pokemon have always (regardless of graphics) been depicted as animals. Everything in the games, from catching to battling to digitizing to grooming to frickin' breeding points to a view of Pokemon being animals.

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Then Pokemon in the anime are just as animalistic as their game companions. Except the anime, of all canons, is the most clear about Pokemon being more than just animals. The ****-fighting thing? You seem to forget that Pokemon enjoy fighting. Trainers don't force them to fight, Pokemon do it of their own free will.

And breeding hardly is animalistic since no one's forcing them to breed and in fact they won't breed if they don't want to. Technically you're not even putting them in the daycare center to breed, but rather to gain experience and have fun while not in your party. They then go and breed of their own accord if they like what they see in the other Pokemon. If anything, it just means Pokemon are extremely shallow in choosing to have sex with someone they may barely know. <_< Not as if there aren't plenty of humans just like that.

Redstar said:

I'll get to those myths later, but they're probably non-canon. Zeus raped a woman in the form of a swan, yet she still got pregnant... That can't really happen, so humans marrying Pokemon is probably a similar metaphorical situation. It doesn't necessarily mean humans view Pokemon as anything more than an animal. Ancient Greeks didn't worship swans as sex gods... They killed and ate them.

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Um, yes, they're canon. They're in the games. Diamond/Pearl/Platinum. Fourth Gen. Nintendo DS. Go play them, they be awesome. Plus they have Buizel, the most awesome Pokemon since Quilava.

EDIT: You were getting a terminology lesson so that I could better explain how I view animals and Pokemon in a way that allows me to better compare the two in more qualitative terms rather than using just abstract notions. And because, yes, I get annoyed with everyone throwing around sentience as if it alone means something is on the level of a human.

EDIT 2: Yep, it's late. 3:30AM. I think I'm going to call it a night now but by all means, keep posting. I can reply tomorrow to anything...

Shrike Flamestar said:

No, denying that there is a difference between them shows that you don't want to do any research. They are all components of the abstract notion of consciousness and intelligence and each serves a different role, the problem is that popular culture has for so long simply lumped everything into sentience that most people now don't even realize that it's really not what they beleive. It's like a genericized trademark...

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I did do the research. I write science fiction, so I knew the terms right off the bat... Then I looked them up for confirmation. Lo and behold, sentience is the right word and the only applicable one.

Shrike Flamestar said:

And a bear is an animal that lacks the intelligence of a human unless you can somehow prove to me that they're as smart as us, which you can't. As I said, the only way that would work is, yes, if badges brainwash Pokemon. However, nothing in canon, NOTHING, so much as even implies that badges have some sort of magical property.

And I thought we were dealing with game canon here? If we're talking manga then there's really no question about Pokemon being intelligent anyways, they definitely are there... I'm not sure if you get this but one important thing with the games is that you do not need badges to control Pokemon you yourself caught. If you somehow managed to catch a level 100 Lugia without a single badge, it would still obey you. Badges are ONLY needed for traded Pokemon. The explanation I gave a few posts back is that traded Pokemon need that sign that you're worth trust and listening to, while Pokemon you caught know that you're woth following. Yes that's not canon, but it does make sense without taking anything to an extreme such as brainwashing.

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The games and manga suggest they have a magical property. Their very function suggests it.

Shrike Flamestar said:

Also, a master ball has no effect at all on if a Pokemon will obey you. As I said, a Pokemon you caught will obey you Master Ball or Poke Ball, eight badges or no badges. A traded Pokemon will only obey you if you have the badges it's level requires, even if in a Master Ball.

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I know it doesn't. That's why I said it was my personal belief, and one which is sole to my fic.

Shrike Flamestar said:

Then Pokemon in the anime are just as animalistic as their game companions. Except the anime, of all canons, is the most clear about Pokemon being more than just animals. The ****-fighting thing? You seem to forget that Pokemon enjoy fighting. Trainers don't force them to fight, Pokemon do it of their own free will.

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The games and manga state Pokemon don't fight in the wild. Humans makes them.

Shrike Flamestar said:

Um, yes, they're canon. They're in the games. Diamond/Pearl/Platinum. Fourth Gen. Nintendo DS. Go play them, they be awesome. Plus they have Buizel, the most awesome Pokemon since Quilava.

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I meant canon as in they didn't happen. Their myths. Myths didn't happen. I explained that with the whole Zeus comparison.

Shrike Flamestar said:

EDIT: You were getting a terminology lesson so that I could better explain how I view animals and Pokemon in a way that allows me to better compare the two in more qualitative terms rather than using just abstract notions. And because, yes, I get annoyed with everyone throwing around sentience as if it alone means something is on the level of a human.

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I don't think humans are the only sentient animal. There's plenty of animals I view as sentient.

You know what, this is like arguing with a brick wall.

How so? I'm explaining myself at every turn and saying what source in canon suggests or says what I've offered. I'm going off canon as best as I understand it.

I mean it's like arguing with a brick wall in that it's totally pointless as your opponent won't back down, people look at you funny for doing it, and banging your head against it doesn't help.

And did I mention how awesome Vocaloid is?

Well I didn't know we were arguing... Not much to disagree on or back down from.

And what's that?

We were arguing about whether there was a difference between sapience, sentience and self-awareness or not. And until Shrike went to bed not too long ago (which I should be doing too) I had backup. ;_;

It's software that lets you input music and lyrics, then churns them out for you. Kind of like the reverse of dictation software w/ melody. Try this one (hopefully the right link) for a good example of what can be done with it.