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Debate 2020 First Trump Biden Political Debate

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    As the first major political debate took place last night, would anybody like to give thoughts or feelings on it?

    While I don't think i'm well versed or politically intelligent enough yet to be opinionated, I would love to read what others thought of it.

    I was wondering why if a question is directed at one person, the others mic isn't cut. Wouldn't this stop interruptions?
     
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    My thoughts are What a holy shit trainwreck that you just can't stop watching. Like I don't know how anyone can get anything out of that. I mean I already know I'm voting for Biden. But yes they should cut each other's mics when they are given their 2 minutes of uninterrupted talk time.
     
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    Not gonna lie. For Europeans it was like watching a comedy.

    That was my reoccurring thought. I was imagining what it would be like watching from that kind of perspective.

    It's my first time being able to vote, otherwise I think I would pass. That and non voters seem to get shamed to an extent.
     
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    Its more of a they have the right to vote and don't and then sit there and bitch about EVERYTHING. That's when people get upset. If you are able to vote and don't then sit there and shut up.
     
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  • I was wondering why if a question is directed at one person, the others mic isn't cut. Wouldn't this stop interruptions?

    A lot of people are commenting about this. It doesn't seem to be common knowledge, but both campaigns agree to the rules of the debate. If there's a feature that's absent, that's because they couldn't achieve agreement on that. A lot of reporting suggests that the moderator did a bad job. That's just an awful take that shifts responsibility away from Trump who is truly responsible for the mess that was the debate.
     
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    I mean the moderator can only do so much professionally if Trump just can't shut that glory hole of his. He keeps talking over the moderator and doesn't listen to him and just argues.
     
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    Its more of a they have the right to vote and don't and then sit there and bitch about EVERYTHING. That's when people get upset. If you are able to vote and don't then sit there and shut up.

    I understand the sentiment of this. I partially agree that not participating in the voter process eliminates the right to complain, yet I say partially because if you go into the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances". So while technically...your right to complain can't be denied, I do agree that your complaints lose validity if you didn't try to participate in the first place. I do like the way you worded it. "Sitting there and shutting up" is a much better way of putting than what I commonly see, where it's usually if you don't vote you forfeit the right to complain. Which would abridge freedom of speech....that and part of me still sees staying out of the vote as neglecting a civic duty. Which is why I registered the day I became eligible.




    A lot of people are commenting about this. It doesn't seem to be common knowledge, but both campaigns agree to the rules of the debate. If there's a feature that's absent, that's because they couldn't achieve agreement on that. A lot of reporting suggests that the moderator did a bad job. That's just an awful take that shifts responsibility away from Trump who is truly responsible for the mess that was the debate.

    I was not aware of this. Thank you for sharing.

    If anybody feels like explaining, does anybody mind clearing up the whole electoral college system? I've tried to look into it myself, but have not found a definitive answer.

    If I'm getting this correct, the popular vote can't be the deciding factor because that would mean the more populated states would always determine the election. So instead there's a set number of electoral representatives, who you vote for indirectly when you cast in a ballot for the popular vote.

    So...It's a group of people who are supposed to represent your vote? Then wouldn't the electoral college always coincide with the popular vote anyways?
     
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  • I was not aware of this. Thank you for sharing.

    If anybody feels like explaining, does anybody mind clearing up the whole electoral college system? I've tried to look into myself, but have not found a definitive answer.

    If I'm getting this correct, the popular vote can't be the deciding factor because that would mean the more populated states would always determine the election. So instead there's a set number of electoral representatives, who you vote for indirectly when you cast in a ballot for the popular vote.

    So...It's a group of people who are supposed to represent your vote? Then wouldn't the electoral college always coincide with the popular vote anyways?

    Under the Electoral College system, each state has its own number of electors, and all of the electors in a state go to one candidate or another (except for Nebraska and Maine, but that's 2/50). So the electors in any state don't really represent your vote but rather the candidate who won the most votes in that state.

    For example let's say there's this hypothetical country with state A and state B. State A has a population of 50,000 voters and 50 electors, and state B has a population of 25,000 votes and 25 electors.

    The Purple Party wins 30,000 votes in State A and 5000 votes in State B. The Yellow Party wins the rest - 20,000 votes in State A and 20,000 votes in State B.

    The Yellow Party wins the popular vote - 40,000 votes total compared to 35,000 votes total for the Purple Party.

    But due to the electoral college, Purple has more votes than Yellow in State A and wins State A and all its 50 electors. Yellow has more votes in State B and wins all 25 of its electors. Purple wins the electoral college.

    Basically, any vote beyond 50% in a state is a wasted vote, because you already won the state by having 50%+1 of the vote. So what can sometimes happen is that a candidate wins certain states by a large majority which helps contribute to their popular vote share but doesn't win them more states.
     
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    Under the Electoral College system, each state has its own number of electors, and all of the electors in a state go to one candidate or another (except for Nebraska and Maine, but that's 2/50). So the electors in any state don't really represent your vote but rather the candidate who won the most votes in that state.

    For example let's say there's this hypothetical country with state A and state B. State A has a population of 50,000 voters and 50 electors, and state B has a population of 25,000 votes and 25 electors.

    The Purple Party wins 30,000 votes in State A and 5000 votes in State B. The Yellow Party wins the rest - 20,000 votes in State A and 20,000 votes in State B.

    The Yellow Party wins the popular vote - 40,000 votes total compared to 35,000 votes total for the Purple Party.

    But due to the electoral college, Purple has more votes than Yellow in State A and wins State A and all its 50 electors. Yellow has more votes in State B and wins all 25 of its electors. Purple wins the electoral college.

    Basically, any vote beyond 50% in a state is a wasted vote, because you already won the state by having 50%+1 of the vote. So what can sometimes happen is that a candidate wins certain states by a large majority which helps contribute to their popular vote share but doesn't win them more states.
    .. why is this a thing again?


    Echoing the comment about this looking like a comedy show to Europeans. Just the fact that most I've seen from it have been talk about Trump's disrespect for speaker turns and not about the actual politics. What even is the US leadership anymore?
     

    Nah

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    .. why is this a thing again?
    Supposedly it came into existence because the writers of the Constitution couldn't decide on how the president should be elected, for various reasons, so we got this thing that was sort of a mix of the two main ideas. Or so I've heard.
     
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  • That seems like too much bureaucracy. It should just be the total majority of the country since that's what the president represents. Seems like a way to give victory to an undeserving party.
     

    Ivysaur

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  • .. why is this a thing again?

    Two reasons. One, the founders were afraid that an ignorant real-state mogul from New York could rise to the presidency by running a populist, hate-filled campaign so they thought that adding an extra layer as a safety measure would prevent it. In theory, voters don't elect a president but a number of 'wise men' delegates who would be supposed to be smarter than to fall for that kind of candidate. In fact, they never mandated that those electors be elected themselves- state parliaments could just appoint them without asking the citizens, as plenty of states did in the early years (South Carolina didn't hold a presidential election until mid-19th century).

    Second, there was the issue of slavery. If the president were chosen through a national popular vote of citizens, then all those slaves would effectively not exist, and the slave-holding states were angry that a huge chunk of their population would just vanish like that. They wanted political power for all the slaves they had! So, by adding a 'representative' layer, they could appoint those proportionally to their overall population, regardless of whether they were citizens or slaves. The compromise was that slaves would count as 3/5ths of a human and they would count towards the non-slaves in those states being given more representatives to the House and electors to choose a president.

    If I'm getting this correct, the popular vote can't be the deciding factor because that would mean the more populated states would always determine the election. So instead there's a set number of electoral representatives, who you vote for indirectly when you cast in a ballot for the popular vote.

    Except, not really. If every vote is equal, then every vote counts! If you're a small rural voter in Nebraska, your vote counts the same as that of a professional worker in San Francisco. Look at Texas- the largest cities in the state are deeply democratic, but republicans win by running up large margins among the millions of rural voters, and by getting a large minority of voters in those large cities too. And that's fine! In a presidential election in which every vote counted, Republicans would have a reason to campaign in California, because every vote they wrung out of the republican minority in that state would be relevant. But democrats would also get a reason to campaign in Mississippi and Arkansas!

    Right now, the presidential election is decided by a handful of states that happen to be very close in the polls. When was the last time anyone campaigned in North Dakota? How many ads have been bought in Idaho and Oregon and Hawaii and Maryland and Alaska and California and Oklahoma? Zero. Who cares about what Vermont and New York and West Virgina vote? Nobody- they are already accounted for. The election is happening in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin and Florida, everything else is just incidental. It makes even less sense.
     
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    13,273
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    Two reasons. One, the founders were afraid that an ignorant real-state mogul from New York could rise to the presidency by running a populist, hate-filled campaign so they thought that adding an extra layer as a safety measure would prevent it. In theory, voters don't elect a president but a number of 'wise men' delegates who would be supposed to be smarter than to fall for that kind of candidate. In fact, they never mandated that those electors be elected themselves- state parliaments could just appoint them without asking the citizens, as plenty of states did in the early years (South Carolina didn't hold a presidential election until mid-19th century).

    Second, there was the issue of slavery. If the president were chosen through a national popular vote of citizens, then all those slaves would effectively not exist, and the slave-holding states were angry that a huge chunk of their population would just vanish like that. They wanted political power for all the slaves they had! So, by adding a 'representative' layer, they could appoint those proportionally to their overall population, regardless of whether they were citizens or slaves. The compromise was that slaves would count as 3/5ths of a human and they would count towards the non-slaves in those states being given more representatives to the House and electors to choose a president.



    Except, not really. If every vote is equal, then every vote counts! If you're a small rural voter in Nebraska, your vote counts the same as that of a professional worker in San Francisco. Look at Texas- the largest cities in the state are deeply democratic, but republicans win by running up large margins among the millions of rural voters, and by getting a large minority of voters in those large cities too. And that's fine! In a presidential election in which every vote counted, Republicans would have a reason to campaign in California, because every vote they wrung out of the republican minority in that state would be relevant. But democrats would also get a reason to campaign in Mississippi and Arkansas!

    Right now, the presidential election is decided by a handful of states that happen to be very close in the polls. When was the last time anyone campaigned in North Dakota? How many ads have been bought in Idaho and Oregon and Hawaii and Maryland and Alaska and California and Oklahoma? Zero. Who cares about what Vermont and New York and West Virgina vote? Nobody- they are already accounted for. The election is happening in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin and Florida, everything else is just incidental. It makes even less sense.

    Ohhh, thank you for sharing. My state was one of those you listed as accounted for so yeah I recognize it's never been a target during the election years.

    If you have a state that's historically say always voted democratic, then it would be a waste of resources and time to campaign there.

    So is this the reason the swing states get so much attention?
     

    Ivysaur

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  • Ohhh, thank you for sharing. My state was one of those you listed as accounted for so yeah I recognize it's never been a target during the election years.

    If you have a state that's historically say always voted democratic, then it would be a waste of resources and time to campaign there.

    So is this the reason the swing states get so much attention?

    Of course. To win the election, you need to win 50.1% of votes in states totalling 270 electoral votes (50.1%). Sure, most candidates would love to win 49 states like Reagan, but George W. Bush's 271 EVs in 2000 work just as well. So, if you are a politician, what do you do? You look at the last election and you try to hold the states your party won by a narrower margin and win the ones you lost by the smallest difference. And if some states seem to be suffering large swings for some reason, like the candidate being uniquely suited/awful for that state or a huge demographic shift or whatever (like, Maine has gone from D+3 in 2016 to polling like D+15 this year), you just take it (or give up on them) and move on to the rest of the list.

    Sure, republicans would love to win NY, and polls show a very close race in Texas and democrats would be over the moon if they carried it. But why spend money there when Florida has a near-tie and both parties have won it over the past decade? Maybe democrats could win Alaska if they started dumping money into it- but it makes more sense to pour it into MI, WI and PA, which they lost by less than 1%. And, since those three states alone would be enough to get to 270, really, why bother with anything else.

    So right now you have a core of six states (PA, WI, MI, MN, AZ and FL) which Trump won (or lost, in the case of MN) by very small margins and that polls show that could be won by Biden this year, which are getting most of the attention and tens of millions of dollars and all the rallies. And then you have a bunch of close-ish states (NH, NV, TX, GA, NC) which polls show are competitive but aren't as easily winnable for the party that lost them in 2016, where both parties are throwing symbolic amounts of money just for the heck of it- hey, Obama carried Indiana out of nowhere in 2008. It was pointless but, you know, the more states you win the better, especially if you do it on the cheap and doesn't distract you from the core states you *have to win*. Everything else? Clinton carried New Mexico by double digits, why should Trump bother? Alabama voted for Trump by 30 points or something, just who cares, he's going to win there without trying.
     
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