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Aegislash retest

Sirfetch’d

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    An official thread has not been posted but apparently, as seen here, Aegislash is the next mon up for suspect. Aegislash was banned from OU play quite a while go but was a highly debated ban. Many felt the ban was undeserved and many felt that the ban should have came sooner. How do you feel about Aegi potentially being back in OU?
     

    srinator

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    I swear i still dont see how aegi can be good for the meta. I mean sure it stops things like mega meta,mega voir,mega chams etc from being as borked as it is now, but honestly getting in one mon with ridiculously powerful stab that it can easily spam due to its access to things like king shield and also having a pseudo 150/150 defenses and 150/150 offenses is something to really consider while thinking about obviously broken ass mon .

    I swear i would rage so hard if that thing gets back into ou :/
    i would rather deal with mega meta tbh

    sorry for rambling, but p shaken etc >.<
     

    KorpiklaaniVodka

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  • I hope they bring Aegi back since there are way too many threats to prepare for. With Aegi back, lots of Pokemon would take a massive blow in viability, which I think is good for the meta.
     

    Yoshikko

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    alright ok i cannot contain my excitement. i'm sorry sri you seem to be emotionally damaged somehow, but when i came back aegi was already banned so i've never experienced it before. i also absolutely LOVE its design and concept, i think it's such a clever pokemon and i'd be so stoked to use it!!

    anyhow, i think this is totally what the metagame needs rn. it's just become stagnant and even though i wasn't around when it was ou i feel like this was only a matter of time. totally pro unban

    mega altaria and aegislash team hnnnnnnNNNNNNNNG PLESE
     
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    Nah

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    Finally having a potential unbanning eh? But idk how I'd feel about Aegislash being brought back to OU. I've never been good at understanding how exactly a specific Pokemon effects the meta and whether it truly is good or bad for it. Not like I'd ever get the required COIL needed to vote in the suspect anyway, if I had a Smogon account.
     

    Anti

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  • I'm happy for this retest as it was nearly not banned last time (and under current voting policies would not have been; it's why you're not allowed to change your vote now after posting lol) so it's certainly borderline enough to warrant a second look.

    If I am recalling correctly, I used Aegislash on every XY team I built. It's really, really good. I think people overstate its power though. You basically have to run the fast Life Orb set to have a chance to beat many of its checks, and while that set is strong, we're not dealing with DPP Salamence here:

    252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 138-164 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- 90.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Heatran runs Speed now, making the attack hit harder but forcing a switch immediately to over getting OHKOed. Also, as much as I love such a set, it forfeits much of Aegislash's defensive utility, which is supposedly its "healthy" effect on the metagame.

    The slower sets with Spooky Plate or Leftovers hit decently hard, but these simply cannot break past defensive Pokemon like Heatran, Zapdos, Gliscor (SDef), Venusaur-Mega, Sableye-Mega (SDef), Amoonguss, and even some Hippowdon. (Mandibuzz too if you consider it relevant.) It's not like it's without offensive checks either: either Landorus forme, either Mega Charizard, Excadrill, and especially Bisharp are very annoying Pokemon for it to face, and the forfeiture of momentum to them is a very real issue. It's not like the Zards are wallflowers or something.

    Its versatility is very frustrating and it has a ton of soft checks but many fewer hard checks. I don't think "oh it can Head Smash Mandibuzz!!1!" is a very good argument, but it can pick off a huge number of its checks. SD is particularly threatening, and SubToxic is very annoying if you pack the wrong checks.

    King's Shield is very annoying. I personally don't see this as a problem though. If Knock Off and Scald are allowed, which actually much safer to spam (as you *can* lose the 50/50, which can potentially be devastating, so there is a natural deterrent for spamming KS). As part of the whole package on a Pokemon, it's one of its most compelling traits, but I think to ban it based on this mechanic would be flawed. It's not like physical attackers aren't buffed enough in this meta.

    My only hope is that people approach this test with an open mind.

    Look, a lot of good players disagreed on it last time. It almost didn't get banned. This doesn't mean anything in itself (hashtag appeal to popularity), but when you look closer, it speaks to the fact that it's not so egregiously broken that it got rolled out of the tier like Greninja or Mawile did. It's not as threatening. Conversely, this Pokemon is buffed to the max, which is why it was banned in the first place. It's kind of hard to say exactly how good it will be in this meta, though some effects are more predictable than others ("yay my offense doesn't lose a Pokemon to Gardevoir every time it comes in"), but whether that effect is healthy and whether Aegislash's strength can be contained remains to be seen.

    Bring on the madness. Definitely getting reqs for this one.

    As one final postscript, I feel like this is the retest Latias never got in DPP. During the initial Aegisalsh test I spammed this comparison, and I suspect it still holds up. How do we tier a Pokemon who might be individually broken and over-centralizing, but whose impact on the tier we might actually find positive? It's an interesting question.
     

    Dark Azelf

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    I think Aegi is a great retest candidate. Not only does it give stall a little more breathing room against some threats (Garde, MHera, Gallade etc, Pursuits Goth etc, Kings Shield being an emergency stop to certain physical threats and at the same time being a psuedo win con etc) it also helps out offense, a style that really cannot switch into MGardy, DDMAltaria, MGross etc at all.

    I feel Aegislash is very much like GSC Snorlax. By playing in both metagames (GSC w/lax and w/o lax and XY W/Aegi and XY/ORAS W/o Aegi), i feel the same way about both. GSC Snorlax was better than certain ubers (Ho-Oh, Mewtwo, Lugia etc) at the time, that is a fact and could turn the game on its head with its ridiculous movepool (Curse, Belly Drum, SDestruct, Lovely Kiss, Fire Blast etc) as well as being an insane defensive and offensive threat.....but, is it broken? This is debatable. Some people believe it is, others dont. Anyways my main point is GSC is inherently worse without Snorlax than it is with it in the metagame because its just a fantastic glue pokemon and can do almost any role and it checks alot of insane things. I honestly feel the same thing can be said about Aegislash at this point, the metagame is better with it.

    Anyway i think Aegislash's main pro ban arguments are thats its checked better by defensive pokemon than offensive (obvious right?) but as usual if offensive players (the majority of people) complain about something it gets banned, so yeah lol (otherwise Goth, MGardy etc would have ALOT more pro ban attention), . I mean what offensive team is going to want to run things like Amoongus, Mandibuzz, Umbreon, Sp.Def Gliscor etc? Its like Anti said, its has offensive soft checks like Bisharp, Tran, MGyara etc but those tend to get worn down fast so i could see this go either way.
     

    skyburial

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  • King's shield doesn't do anything against Spore or Will-o-Wisp (or Tickle, etc.), and I think that in particular is what leaves Aegislash with its dork dirk in its hand 9/10 times it loses. You can compensate for this by running it special, but the issue is that KS and a low speed tier, which make Aegi so viable against wallbreakers and sweeps, is also its most crippling weakness against common status moves.

    I'm only saying anything here because I'd like to use Aegislash in the Prism League and its ban is the only reason I'm running Dragon/Ground over Dragon/Steel rn. Cue frustrated sighs and tongue lashings.
     

    Nah

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    I kinda wish that they wouldn't completely replace the regular OU ladder with the suspect ladder though. It's like, what if I don't wanna battle on the suspect ladder?
     

    Anti

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  • i don't get the point of a non ks aegislash. to me, this is tacitly acknowledging that the metagame is sufficiently broken that they would do a complex ban they otherwise would not consider to balance it out. if aegislash is broken, it should not be unbanned. if it is not, it shouldn't be. this is not a solution.

    glad we kept metagross in the tier!
     

    KorpiklaaniVodka

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  • i don't get the point of a non ks aegislash. to me, this is tacitly acknowledging that the metagame is sufficiently broken that they would do a complex ban they otherwise would not consider to balance it out. if aegislash is broken, it should not be unbanned. if it is not, it shouldn't be. this is not a solution.

    glad we kept metagross in the tier!

    now watch as they ban Dark Void Darkrai, Sacred Fire Ho-Oh and Protean Greninja and allow the Pokemon themselves into OU. Guess we'll be seeing mixed Ho-Oh and NP Darkrai rampaging through the tier.
     
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  • If they were to ban King's Shield, then that would take away one of the things that made Aegislash the disaster it was. It'd be quite a bit more tame as one would have to switch after attacking, most likely.
     

    Pinkie-Dawn

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  • Aegislash without King's Shield would potentially mess with some players' OCD, because it's Aegislash's signature move.
     

    skyburial

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  • 4 more days til the votes are in.

    d64.gif
     

    Zeffy

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    Gee, I was expecting that the difference between the votes would be smaller than this. That's what I get for not actually laddering, I guess :p
     

    Nah

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    I thought that it'd be closer than that too, considering how close it was last time. At least this means I don't have to re-do all my OU teams to accommodate for Aegislash.
     
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