Aliens, of the ancient variety?

[Livewire]

One of my favorite pseudo-scientific topics there is.

Now, there is exists a theory that has been gaining steam in recent years, that aliens, or other intelligent lifeforms, visited earth in the past, and they formed the basis for our various mythologies and religions, as well as spurring along human development by supplementing existing technology and directing the course of history.

Proponents argue that the evidence for ancient astronauts comes from supposed gaps in historical and archaeological records, and they also maintain that absent or incomplete explanations of historical or archaeological data point to the existence of ancient astronauts. The evidence is said to include archaeological artifacts that they argue are anachronistic or beyond the presumed technical capabilities of the historical cultures with which they are associated (sometimes referred to as "Out-of-place artifacts"); and artwork and legends which are interpreted as depicting extraterrestrial contact or technologies.

Religious texts

Proponents cite ancient mythologies to support their viewpoints based on the idea that ancient creation myths of gods who descend from the heavens to Earth to create or instruct humanity are actually representations of alien visitors, whose superior technology accounts for their reception as gods. Proponents attempt to draw an analogy to occurrences in modern times when isolated cultures are exposed to Western technology, such as when, in the early 20th century, "cargo cults" were discovered in the South Pacific: cultures who believed various Western ships and their cargo to be sent from the gods as fulfillment of prophecies concerning their return.[21]
Flying machines are sometimes mentioned in ancient texts; one example is the Vimanas, mythological flying machines found in the Hindu epics. These tales range from fantastic aerial battles employing various weaponry, to the mundane relating simple technical information, flight procedure, and flights of fancy. (See also Vaimanika Shastra, a text on Vimanas supposedly "channeled" in the early 20th century.)[22]

Ezekiel

In the Biblical Old Testament, the Book of Ezekiel tells of a flying object seen as a fiery whirlwind which when descended to the ground gave the appearance of being made of metal. It is described among other things as a wheel within a wheel containing four occupants, "living creatures", whose likeness was that of man. The passage goes on to say that wherever the wheels went the creatures went, and when the living creatures were lifted up the wheels were lifted up.[23] In chapter 4 of Chariots of the Gods?, entitled, "Was God an Astronaut?" von Däniken refers to the vision of Ezekiel, suggesting Ezekiel had seen a spaceship, a hypothesis Morris Jessup had put forward in 1956[24] and Arthur W. Orton in 1961.[25] A detailed version of this hypothesis was described by Josef F. Blumrich in his book The Spaceships of Ezekiel.[26]

Genesis

In the Book of Genesis, Genesis 6:1-4 states that "When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose... The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them." In the King James Version they are identified as "giants". The Nephilim are perhaps children of the fallen angels, although scholars are uncertain.[27] Erich von Däniken sees an extraterrestrial connection in this passage, and suggests that here "we have the sons of God, who interbreed with human beings." [28]
Chuck Missler and Mark Eastman argue that UFOs carry the fallen angels, or offspring of fallen angels, the Nephilim of Genesis, who have now returned. They believe it was this interbreeding between the angels and humans that led to what they call "the gene pool problem." Noah was perfect in his "generations," that is "Noah's genealogy was not tarnished by the intrusion of fallen angels. It seems that this adulteration of the human gene pool was a major problem on the planet earth." [29]
Von Däniken also suggests that the two angels who visited Lot in Genesis 19 were not angels, but ancient astronauts. They may have used atomic weapons to destroy the city of Sodom. In any case, the otherworldly beings acted as if there was a time set for Sodom's destruction. Von Däniken questioned why God would work on a timetable and why an "infinitely good Father" would give "preference to 'favorite children,' such as Lot's family, over countless others."

Other Old Testament passages

In several chapters of the Old Testament God is depicted as traveling as a column of smoke and/or fire[31] and making the sound of a trumpet.[32] These descriptions also describe Yahweh as having a physical presence,[33] rather than an abstraction. Yahweh is described raining lightning[34] and stones[35] down upon the enemies of the Hebrews. However, descriptions of the Hebrew God have also featured protecting wings and outstretched arms in the Psalms, features which may be considered contrary to theories of mechanical manifestations of God.

Additionally, the characteristics of the Ark of the Covenant and the Urim and Thummim are identified as suggesting high technology, perhaps from alien origins.

Apocryphal writings

The apocryphal Book of Enoch tells of similar flying objects and beings called "the Watchers" who have mutinied from "heaven" and descended to earth, but goes further in that Enoch is taken on journeys to various corners of the Earth in the object and at one point even travels to the heavens.


Artifacts and artwork

Alleged physical evidence includes the discovery of artifacts in Egypt (the Saqqara Bird) and Colombia-Ecuador, which are claimed to be similar to modern planes and gliders,[39] although these have been interpreted by archaeologists as stylized representations of birds and insects.

"The Baptism of Christ", 1710, by Aert de Gelder

​

Spoiler:

More support of this theory draws upon what are claimed to be representations of flying saucers in medieval and renaissance art.[40] This is used to support the ancient astronaut theory by attempting to show that the creators of humanity return to check up on their creation throughout time.
Other artistic support for the ancient astronaut theory has been sought in Palaeolithic cave paintings. Wondjina in Australia and Val Camonica in Italy (seen above) are claimed to bear a resemblance to present day astronauts. Supporters of the ancient astronaut theory sometimes claim that similarities such as dome shaped heads, interpreted as beings wearing space helmets, prove that early man was visited by an extraterrestrial race.

Nazca Lines

The ancient Nazca Lines comprise hundreds of enormous ground drawings etched into the high desert landscape of Peru, which consist primarily of geometric shapes, but also include depictions of a variety of animals and at least one human figure. Many believers in ancient astronauts cite the Nazca lines as evidence because the figures created by the lines are most clearly depicted or only able to be seen when viewed from the air. Writing professor Joe Nickell of the University of Kentucky, using only technology he believed to be available to people of the time, was able to recreate one of the larger figures with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Monumental architecture

Evidence for ancient astronauts is claimed to include the existence of ancient monuments and megalithic ruins such as the Giza pyramids of Egypt, Machu Picchu in Peru, or Baalbek in Lebanon, and the Moai of Easter Island.[citation needed] Supporters contend these stone structures could not have been built with the technical abilities and tools of the people of the time and further argue that many could not be duplicated even today. They suggest that the large size of the building stones, the precision with which they were laid, and the distances many were transported leaves the question open as to who constructed these sites. These contentions are categorically rejected by mainstream archeology. Some mainstream archeologists have participated in experiments to move large megaliths. These experiments have succeeded in moving megaliths up to at least 40 tons,[43][44] and they have speculated that with a larger workforce larger megaliths could be towed with ancient technology.[45] Such allegations are not unique in history, however, as similar reasoning lay behind the wonder of the Cyclopean masonry walling at Mycenaean cities in the eyes of Greeks of the following "Dark Age," who believed that the giant Cyclopes had built the walls.

What do you believe?

 

[Steven]

I'm not going to say whether or not it happened. I wasn't there.

Based upon the evidence, it's possible. But so is the fact that the civilizations were probably more advanced than we believe. I think it's highly possible we aren't the most advanced human civilization that has existed on Earth. Whether or not that means there were aliens helping them is not for me to decide.

I do believe aliens exist, it's inevitable. Intelligent life too. I just don't have an opinion on if they affected human development, because I wasn't their. Their art could just be art. People 10,000 years down the road might look at art of Pokemon and think "Animals used to shoot lighting from their face?"

 

[Rainy Day]

I'm not sure about aliens, but I do know that I liked Nazis better.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I actually saw a special on the History channel about this...and I think that it might be true...if so than it proves that God really exists and that Aliens exist too! Gods = Aliens
I mean the Aztecs thought that the more technologically advanced spaniards were gods when they first came due to their weird tech and a myth that said about a white bearded god.

 

[Bela]

I actually saw a special on the History channel about this...and I think that it might be true...if so than it proves that God really exists and that Aliens exist too! Gods = Aliens
I mean the Aztecs thought that the more technologically advanced spaniards were gods when they first came due to their weird tech and a myth that said about a white bearded god.

So because some human beings mistake other human beings as superior, godlike entities, it follows that such superior, godlike entities exist?

The History channel really needs to rename itself the Conspiracy Theory channel. Whether it's Nazis or Aliens, the "History" channel is all over it. And when it finally does accurately rename itself, Glenn Beck should pick that channel as the one he goes to once his contract with Fox supposedly expires this year.

Proponents argue that the evidence for ancient astronauts comes from supposed gaps in historical and archaeological records, and they also maintain that absent or incomplete explanations of historical or archaeological data point to the existence of ancient astronauts.

The notion that evidence for a claim is found from an absence of proof against such a claim is ridiculous.

Example: I think the Easter Bunny is real. Can you prove the Easter Bunny isn't real? Since you do not have proof that confirms, once and for all, that the Easter Bunny does not exist, it follows that the Easter Bunny is real.

Now compare: I think ancient astronauts came to our planet and influenced our society. Can you prove that was not the case? Since you lack a means of explaining these gaps in historical records and other assertions that I will make about a lack of evidence for the claim that societies had no otherworldly influence, I will then conclude that this validates my own claim. That is, since I place the burden of proof to the contrary on you, I can freely state that ancient astronauts did, in fact, influence our early cultures and societies.

The "Out of place artifacts" are also typically either fabricated or mistakenly identified.

 

[Mr Cat Dog]

I actually saw a special on the History channel about this...and I think that it might be true...if so than it proves that God really exists and that Aliens exist too! Gods = Aliens
I mean the Aztecs thought that the more technologically advanced spaniards were gods when they first came due to their weird tech and a myth that said about a white bearded god.

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Even if this is true - and while it would be nice to believe, if the only evidence that can be brought is circumstantial passages from Scripture open to spurious interpretation which wreaks heavily of conspiracy - that doesn't necessitate God = Aliens. It just assumes there are OTHER life forms out there, not that said life forms are the creators of everything as we know it.

But just so we're clear: I don't believe any of this, however nice it would be if it were true. As Livey says: this is pseudo-science at its most ostentatious!

 

[Livewire]

Now compare: I think ancient astronauts came to our planet and influenced our society. Can you prove that was not the case? Since you lack a means of explaining these gaps in historical records and other assertions that I will make about a lack of evidence for the claim that societies had no otherworldly influence, I will then conclude that this validates my own claim. That is, since I place the burden of proof to the contrary on you, I can freely state that ancient astronauts did, in fact, influence our early cultures and societies.

The "Out of place artifacts" are also typically either fabricated or mistakenly identified.

The logic works both both ways - It can niether be proven nor repudiated, but only debated.

And no, some of the out of place artifacts have merit or have been verified as a historical enigma, such as the Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca head, whic depicts an Anglo-Saxon, Caucasian man, yet it was found amongst Mesoamerican burial regalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head

 

[Steven]

The logic works both both ways - It can niether be proven nor repudiated, but only debated

Like Religion. Since it can never be proven/disproven without a time machine, I don't understand the point in debating about it.

 

[Livewire]

Like Religion. Since it can never be proven/disproven without a time machine, I don't understand the point in debating about it.

Then don't post.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an interesting topic to debate. It raises some interesting theories and points, and challenges the established view.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

I don't really have much of an opinion other than it's just interesting that such a number of ancient cultures seem to have some variation of ancient astronauts.

But at the same time, they all have some variation of other paranormal, supernatural things.

So, to me, just myth

 

[インフェルノの津波]

So...let me get this straight...we're trying to find out if aliens associated with our ancestors, and the History Channel is covering this?

I have an even bigger question: HOW THE HELL DID PEOPLE OF ANCIENT TIMES MOVE THOSE HUMONGOUS ROCKS THAT WOULD TAKE BULLDOZERS TO MOVE?!

In all seriousness, I honestly don't care if aliens made me a sandwich while standing on their head, focus on more serious topics, if they have the money to fund this crap then how about giving money to, I don't know, a TV program on cancer (unless they've done that already), or maybe focus more on those with epilepsy?

As usual, people purposely do what they want to do.

 

[Livewire]

So...let me get this straight...we're trying to find out if aliens associated with our ancestors, and the History Channel is covering this?

I have an even bigger question: HOW THE HELL DID PEOPLE OF ANCIENT TIMES MOVE THOSE HUMONGOUS ROCKS THAT WOULD TAKE BULLDOZERS TO MOVE?!

In all seriousness, I honestly don't care if aliens made me a sandwich while standing on their head, focus on more serious topics, if they have the money to fund this crap then how about giving money to, I don't know, a TV program on cancer (unless they've done that already), or maybe focus more on those with epilepsy?

As usual, people purposely do what they want to do.

You could post something relevant to the topic, jsyk.

Actully, the Pyramids were thought to have been build in 20 years. Which is, impossible. The great Pyramid consists of 2.3 million blocks, each weighing roughly two tons. If the common theory hold up, a stone would have to be cut, moved, and layed every 9 seconds. Which, is false.

Hmmmm.

 

[Rich Boy Rob]

I've always found this idea fascinating. I do think that it is a possibility and definitely more so than the idea of literal gods.
If extra-terrestrials had ever visited before, it's undoubtable that they would have been seen as deities, though I do wonder why they wouldn't have presented themselves to us publicly since then.

The notion that evidence for a claim is found from an absence of proof against such a claim is ridiculous.

Example: I think the Easter Bunny is real. Can you prove the Easter Bunny isn't real? Since you do not have proof that confirms, once and for all, that the Easter Bunny does not exist, it follows that the Easter Bunny is real.

Whilst I agree, I must point out; this is what followers of religion have been doing since the dawn of civilisation.

The "Out of place artifacts" are also typically either fabricated or mistakenly identified.

I suggest you look up on the Antikythera mechanism. It's an ancient machine that calculates astronomical positions. Light years ahead of it's time.

 

[Netto Azure]

Go watch Stargate. Christianity is based upon the Ori beliefs! :D

 

[Livewire]

I've always found this idea fascinating. I do think that it is a possibility and definitely more so than the idea of literal gods.
If extra-terrestrials had ever visited before, it's undoubtable that they would have been seen as deities, though I do wonder why they wouldn't have presented themselves to us publicly since then.



Whilst I agree, I must point out; this is what followers of religion have been doing since the dawn of civilisation.



I suggest you look up on the Antikythera mechanism. It's an ancient machine that calculates astronomical positions. Light years ahead of it's time.

I agree Rob. If you at it, without a religious bias, it makes sense. The whole notion that various human Mythos are based around the possibility of alien contact, and the ancients interpreted them as gods, with divine powers, when in actuality they were just an advanced society themselves. Think about it this way, Gods descended from the heavens, Jesus aceneded to heaven in a great flash of light. It makes sense.

 

[groteske]

LiveWire, check out some of William Cooper's speeches on youtube. As an aside, I watched a NatGeo documentary last night that said the pyramids took 70 years, but either way it's still impossible with the technology of that period.

SO's friend has been spamming him with similarly-themed youtube videos/speeches. I can forward or post if anyone's interested. It's an interesting theory to think on, even if you aren't actually considering it.

I've just begun reading the Old Testament for the first time in some 10 years. Once I'm able to stop laughing at Genesis (and myself, for once swallowing this crap without second thought) I'm looking forward to reading everything with an alien-oriented bias. If nothing else it'll be entertaining!

 

[Livewire]

LiveWire, check out some of William Cooper's speeches on youtube. As an aside, I watched a NatGeo documentary last night that said the pyramids took 70 years, but either way it's still impossible with the technology of that period.

SO's friend has been spamming him with similarly-themed youtube videos/speeches. I can forward or post if anyone's interested. It's an interesting theory to think on, even if you aren't actually considering it.

I've just begun reading the Old Testament for the first time in some 10 years. Once I'm able to stop laughing at Genesis (and myself, for once swallowing this crap without second thought) I'm looking forward to reading everything with an alien-oriented bias. If nothing else it'll be entertaining!

I'll certainly look into that, This area of thought interests me greatly as a history major.

The Pyramids could not have been built with hammers, chisels, ropes and pulleys. Not when the stones weigh 2 tons. And especially not since there are over 2 million individual stones.

 

[TRIFORCE89]

Pyramids didn't go up over night you know.

Maybe 20-odd years. They aren't *that* complicated from an engineering aspect - manpower yes. But they had a workforce and slaves. So, I thin 20-years of constant physical labour sounds about here.

Some great cathedrals took hundreds of years. Those were made by people, not aliens. I think it's the same with the pyramids

 

[Livewire]

Pyramids didn't go up over night you know.

Maybe 20-odd years. They aren't *that* complicated from an engineering aspect - manpower yes. But they had a workforce and slaves. So, I thin 20-years of constant physical labour sounds about here.

Some great cathedrals took hundreds of years. Those were made by people, not aliens. I think it's the same with the pyramids

The only problem with that is there really isn't a period of Egyptian history that validates that. It would have taken tens of thousands of slaves and workers, and as far as Historians know, there isn't a time frame that matches up where that kind of manpower would be available, due to war or other domestic issues. The pyramids are roughly 4500-5000 yrs old, putting them around 2500-3000 BCE.

It's not entirely about the engineering aspect of it. The three great pyrimds point to astronomical points- the three stars in the belt of the Orion Constellation. They are located at a point of longitude and latitude that make them the center of all the landmass on earth. From a mathematical standpoint, the dimensions being nearly perfect.

The accuracy of the pyramid's workmanship is such that the four sides of the base have an average error of only 58 millimetres in length.[10] The base is horizontal and flat to within 21 mm.[11] The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc)[12] based on true north, not magnetic north,[13] and the finished base was squared to a mean corner error of only 12 seconds of arc.[14] The completed design dimensions, as suggested by Petrie's survey and subsequent studies, are estimated to have originally been 280 cubits high by 440 cubits long at each of the four sides of its base. The ratio of the perimeter to height of 1760/280 cubits equates to 2π to an accuracy of better than 0.05% (corresponding to the well-known approximation of π as 22/7). Some Egyptologists consider this to have been the result of deliberate design proportion. Verner wrote, "We can conclude that although the ancient Egyptians could not precisely define the value of π, in practice they used it".[15] Petrie, author of Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh concluded: "but these relations of areas and of circular ratio are so systematic that we should grant that they were in the builder's design".[16] Others have argued that the Ancient Egyptians had no concept of pi and would not have thought to encode it in their monuments. The creation of the pyramid may instead be based on simple ratios of the sides of right angled triangles (the seked).

 

[Hassan_Abdillah]

My humble opinion:

The topic is interesting no doubt, but to speak in defense of those who consider such discussions futile: even if aliens do exist, I doubt it would provide any intellectual premise for a notable worldview shift for an individual, due to the fact that we are left in darkness as to what these supposed aliens want, and what is there purpose with helping us, if there is any to begin with. People may come up with this or that hypothesis but any hypothesis would be as good as the next.

As long as we cannot establish a valid nexus between alien and human existence, we cannot make much, in fact any, intellectual headway in any direction whatsoever (enter conspiracy theorists). It's kind of like the concept of the Prime Mover: if it does exist, we don't know how it relates to this world, so worldview-wise we cannot make any decision with this information.

That said, I do believe that the evidence suggested for existence of aliens is unsubstantial as well. Just the fact that there are "out-of-place" artifacts which demonstrate intelligence ahead of its time, doesn't necessarily point to the fact that extra-terrestrial super-intelligent beings were responsible for it, since the way I see it, any explanation in this regard would be as valid as the next one. And alternative explanations abound in world religions: it can be a case of Divine Intervention (since Miracle is a central concept to Prophethood and revelation, and miracle by definition points to something which cannot be imitated), for instance. The Qur'an (I don't know the Bible's position in this regard) posits Jinns (supernatural beings with superior ability than mankind) as Causes of great architectural feats. Where these feats took place, we do not know, since the Qur'an being a religious book (as opposed to a history book) doesn't concern itself with historical information such as dates. I'm not saying that this position is intellectually firmer than the alien explanation, but just that we don't know anything about the Causative agents behind these, so it would be intellectually dishonest to prefer one position above another.

To be a tad more specific, I disincline towards the position some of the posters above has taken i.e. positing aliens as safer explanations than the religious case. Truth of the matter is we just don't know, so it's intellectually dishonest to make assumptions, and prefer one explanation above another without any valid basis. If religious bias should be ignored, then so should the alien bias, or we should give equal amount of benefit of doubt to both of them.

I think this attitude has borne out of the tendency of seeking natural explanations to everything, and preferring the natural explanations above the supernatural even in cases where we have no knowledge. This is of course intellectually unsafe, since the primary (and only) assumption of science is "Nature does not change it's 'laws' ". We accept this assumption anyway, and I understand that we do, since otherwise no progress would have been made in the fields of science and technology and human knowledge would mean nothing. This however does not mean this assumption applies everywhere, rather we should subject this assumption to scrutiny, especially in cases like this.