America becoming more fascist?

[Kanzler]

RE: fascism - I agree with Thepowaofhax here. What separates fascism from right-wing authoritarianism, what separates the Hitlers and Mussolinis from the Trumps of the world, are those key characteristics in Griffin's theory of fascism. Fascism and Trump are certainly comparable, but fascism is a specific form of right-wing authoritarianism that heavily emphasizes revolutionizing the political order, an organic nation or people, ideologically oriented against capitalism and socialism, and palingenetic ultranationalism - in other words a "mythic" ultranationalism. Trump isn't the most liberal democrat but I wouldn't consider him contemptous of democracy, he talks up the American people but not in a way that describes them as an organic "Volk", he obviously has some disagreements with socialism and capitalism but he's not fundamentally opposed to either as enemies, and while he's nationalist he doesn't advocate for a return to a "golden period" or invoke a national myth.

In summary, fascist regimes and movements in the past have demonstrated a degree of radical right-wing authoritarianism that Trump currently doesn't match up to. You could make the argument that America has certainly progressed on the trajectory toward fascism though, even if it isn't nearly radical enough yet.

 

[gimmepie]

RE: fascism - I agree with Thepowaofhax here. What separates fascism from right-wing authoritarianism, what separates the Hitlers and Mussolinis from the Trumps of the world, are those key characteristics in Griffin's theory of fascism. Fascism and Trump are certainly comparable, but fascism is a specific form of right-wing authoritarianism that heavily emphasizes revolutionizing the political order, an organic nation or people, ideologically oriented against capitalism and socialism, and palingenetic ultranationalism - in other words a "mythic" ultranationalism. Trump isn't the most liberal democrat but I wouldn't consider him contemptous of democracy, he talks up the American people but not in a way that describes them as an organic "Volk", he obviously has some disagreements with socialism and capitalism but he's not fundamentally opposed to either as enemies, and while he's nationalist he doesn't advocate for a return to a "golden period" or invoke a national myth.

In summary, fascist regimes and movements in the past have demonstrated a degree of radical right-wing authoritarianism that Trump currently doesn't match up to. You could make the argument that America has certainly progressed on the trajectory toward fascism though, even if it isn't nearly radical enough yet.

Contemptuous of democracy? Maybe not but he certainly believes that the world would be a better place if he ruled it all as supreme leader and is happy to circumvent democracy if it furthers his personal agenda.

He's hyper capitalist and seems to completely despise everything socialism is and stands for.

He is outwardy and openly biased against those who are not your typical white American.

His campaign slogan was literally "Make America Great Again".


The government might "only" be on a more right/fascist trajectory - even someone as vehemently anti-Trump as me can tell the US isn't a fascist nation (yet) - but Trump himself is very much a fascist. Or at least some sort of wannabe fascist.

 

[Kanzler]

Contemptuous of democracy? Maybe not but he certainly believes that the world would be a better place if he ruled it all as supreme leader and is happy to circumvent democracy if it furthers his personal agenda.

He's hyper capitalist and seems to completely despise everything socialism is and stands for.

He is outwardy and openly biased against those who are not your typical white American.

His campaign slogan was literally "Make America Great Again".


The government might "only" be on a more right/fascist trajectory - even someone as vehemently anti-Trump as me can tell the US isn't a fascist nation (yet) - but Trump himself is very much a fascist. Or at least some sort of wannabe fascist.

What his personal beliefs are is besides the point. Putin is much worse if we are talking about democracy, but we wouldn't call him fascist.

Fascists aren't hypercapitalist, they're against capitalism and socialism as the enemy. People who espouse such views aren't just considered wrong, they're vilified and considered traitors or enemies to society. Foreign capitalists and socialist countries are seen as targets to be conquered or neutralized. Trump simply isn't like that, the rhetoric just isn't as extreme.

That just means he's racist. He doesn't see race as a fascist would, though. Perpetuating stereotypes about other races is not the same as invoking racial purity or exhalting the the American nation above all else.

Just because MAGA was his campaign slogan doesn't mean he's harkening to a mythic, glorious past. For example, Hitler's Germany often made references to the medieval Teutonic knights to glorify and justify their efforts to conquer Eastern Europe, and considered his country the Third Reich. Mussolini made it very clear that his Italy would become a new Roman Empire. There simply isn't a parallel in Trump's rhetoric. He doesn't talk about having to purify society of its degeneration, and having America experience a spiritual rebirth into its roots.

I think you need to delve deeper in the propaganda and ideology of actual fascist regimes and ideologies to understand the difference. It's a matter or radicalism. Compared to actual fascists, Trump is nowhere near as radical for all the reasons I mentioned already. Everything you've described about him is too modest for fascism.

 

[gimmepie]

Snip

I suppose I could look deeper into it, but I find it hard to believe that someone who fits the literal definition of fascism isn't at least well on the road to being a fascist. Remember, you don't need to have actually achieved things to believe them either.

 

[Kanzler]

I suppose I could look deeper into it, but I find it hard to believe that someone who fits the literal definition of fascism isn't at least well on the road to being a fascist. Remember, you don't need to have actually achieved things to believe them either.

What's the literal definition of fascism then?

 

[gimmepie]

What's the literal definition of fascism then?

I posted a screen a page or so back with it. Mind you, there's other dictionaries and articles that have slightly different interpretations.

 

[Kanzler]

I posted a screen a page or so back with it. Mind you, there's other dictionaries and articles that have slightly different interpretations.

Eh I buy Griffin's definition more. But even if you take that dictionary definition, Trump's vision doesn't really have a social organization component to it. The dictionary definition is shot, imo, because you're using the word that's literally Hitler to apply to Trump. We would fail to draw a linguistic distinction between them if there is no word to distinguish between the likes of Hitler to the likes of Trump.

 

[gimmepie]

Eh I buy Griffin's definition more. But even if you take that dictionary definition, Trump's vision doesn't really have a social organization component to it. The dictionary definition is shot, imo, because you're using the word that's literally Hitler to apply to Trump. We would fail to draw a linguistic distinction between them if there is no word to distinguish between the likes of Hitler to the likes of Trump.

The two are honestly extremely similar. The only real difference is the degree of extremism.

 

[Kanzler]

The two are honestly extremely similar. The only real difference is the degree of extremism.

Ain't it the same when we compare socialism to communism, islamic government to ISIS, capitalism to ... some place like in Bioshock? You talk as if the degree of radicality or extremism isn't that big of a deal.

 

[gimmepie]

Ain't it the same when we compare socialism to communism, islamic government to ISIS, capitalism to ... some place like in Bioshock? You talk as if the degree of radicality or extremism isn't that big of a deal.

I don't mean to imply that Trump is on the same level as a Fascist dictator or anything. I'm just saying that they're both present on the scale of extremes that is fascist idealism.

 

[SunsetGreen]

sure and it all 'cause of Trump

 

[gimmepie]

sure and it all 'cause of Trump

I mean, a lot of it is but not all of it.
You need to elaborate.

 

[Maya]

'Fascism' is a concept that many historians find difficult to define; it's not really something that can be pinpointed so easily. In terms of recurring characteristics of fascist nations; yes, America has become more fascist, and this can be seen as a step backwards. But I wouldn't characterise it as a fascist nation. It's still comparatively a very modern and progressive society.

 

[El Héroe Oscuro]

'Fascism' is a concept that many historians find difficult to define; it's not really something that can be pinpointed so easily. In terms of recurring characteristics of fascist nations; yes, America has become more fascist, and this can be seen as a step backwards. But I wouldn't characterise it as a fascist nation. It's still comparatively a very modern and progressive society.

Taking away women's right to birth control, internet providers now being able to invade our privacy by selling our internet history, complete disregard of global warming signs, no good universal health care, the want to build a wall to keep immigrants out, declaration of war essentially without knowing the facts (i.e. trump just shot missiles at Syria over a matter where there wasn't a true sense of who started it)....

...sure, America is amazingly progressive if you disregard these items.