Baton Pass Discussion Thread (Disclaimer: Smogon tiers only) (Update: it has been nerfed)

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uncompetitive-strategies-baton-pass.3537569/

So I just discovered this thread, and found out just how much of a jerk this move is, even with the current clause. Back in 2014, this move got nerfed hard thanks to the troll known as Denisss, which destroyed the ladder with a full BP team. Then GeoPass came to life by virtue of the same player. Basically, a stupid Smeargle + Espeon core with Dual Screen + Memento Latios as teammate, a possible Unaware user and a very dangerous mega behind. According to Smogon, the OU Council plan to take action towards GeoPass soon enough. Then there's still SmashPass, with the same stupid strategy as in BW, Smeargle/Gorebyss/Huntail + a very dangerous wallbreaker.

Some questions:

• How do you think GeoPass affects OU?
• Are there any broken or uncompetitive pieces of this strategy?
• Opinion on SmashPass?
• Should the OU council just ban the move Baton Pass?

 

[Nah]

I don't really like Baton Pass teams. Sure they made it so you can only have one Baton Passer per team....but you really only need one to pull it off. It's annoying as fuck to deal with in this meta because there's plenty of shit to deal with already and this is just additional crap to deal with. Not like that's a completely terrible thing by itself, but Baton Pass kinda seems like a no-to-little skill thing to me. All you need is a BP poke, Espeon, an Unaware 'mon and the rest can pretty much be whatever you want. It's not terribly difficult to figure out or use. You only need like half a team to destroy other people's teams with.

I kinda think that the biggest issue with BP teams though is Espeon. Normally you could just deal with a Baton Passed poke by phazing it out with Whirlwind/Roar, Taunting it so it can't boost itself, and/or inflicting it with status. But Magic Bounce prevents all that. Maybe Magic Bounce is more the problem, idk. Either way, it only leaves you with 2 options: Dragon Tail and Unaware. Woopdeedoo. It's just a simple matter of removing those 2 things from the enemy team, if they even have those at all. And it's not terribly hard to since you have plenty of space for that on the team. Hell, if you're using something like a Baton Pass team, why not use Shadow Tag Gothitelle, Lord of Cancer too? Besides, Fairies are immune to Dragon Tail and Unaware 'mons are generally more used on semi-stall and stall teams, not to mention that Clefable is the only one that doesn't mind Toxic. But again, just remove it and you're good to go.

I suppose it'd be a little hasty of me to immediately be like "fucking ban BP already" though.

.....kinda tempted to get on my alt and use a Baton Pass team to see what happens

 

[srinator]

Either way, it only leaves you with 2 options: Dragon Tail and Unaware. Woopdeedoo.

actually stored power isn't affected by unaware iirc lol

 

[Anti]

I've thought a lot about this actually, and the admittedly tentative conclusion that I have come to is that Baton Pass is a broken move and should be outright banned.

Baton Pass is obviously very unique. I think the major problem with it is that it does not have a reliable counter-play, even without assuming minimal team support.

Full BP is clearly broken. The linked thread shows how easy it is to build a functional BP team across the generations. Unless you're packing the handful of obnoxiously specific counter-plays (remember Haze Quagsire? lol), you're pretty much screwed if the BP user is competent. (And yes, if we're going to assume Landorus or even M-Mawile are broken, then "in the hands of a good player" is a valid/crucial argument.) It's not uncompetitive as much as it is just broken.

But just look at that list in that thread. I remember laddering on Shoddy and running into GliscorPass, for which my strategy was "hope for many critical hits." This is where the aspect of minimal team support comes in: all it really has is screens support, and...that's pretty much it. Those teams are devastating. This isn't remotely the same as full BP, but here it is as arguably very cancerous. Swell.

This will probably be a controversial position, but I think that even at its most basic level, Baton Pass is a broken move, and should be paired with other favorites like Scald, Knock Off, and even Stealth Rock and U-turn/Volt Switch.

I bring up those momentum moves very intentionally, actually. While I do think that U-turn and Volt Switch are both broken (I won't get into that here), they have counter-plays: hazards can wear down most abusers in practice, and Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs (U-turn) and Ground-types (Volt Switch) reduce the moves' spammability somewhat. If you wanted to argue that they're broken, it would basically be something along the lines of "it forces players into lose-lose situations where the only way to break a disadvantageous game state is to risk the Pokemon that is in play, which isn't even possible if they're weak to the momentum move in question." Baton Pass, even with no team support, does the same thing, but without the disclaimer at the end. Like U-turn, it subverts the core mechanic of the game, switching.

Unlike U-turn, it has far higher upside to be devastating. Take Gliscor for example. This is a huge threat in its own right, and it has some specialized checks. Let's say Gliscor comes in on some passive Pokemon that can't threaten it and gets in its boost while the opponent switches into a check. This is a basic competitive sequence: Player 1 has a Pokemon forced out and switches into a check while Player 2 then sets up with the free turn. Now: what if the Gliscor has Baton Pass? Gliscor can effectively subvert this basic sequencing and pass its boost to a Pokemon that beats the Gliscor switch-in. In effect, the player facing Gliscor acts to defeat the Pokemon in battle, knowing that it either has to double switch or give his switch-in a free turn in order to react to his counter-play. Baton Pass's ability to make its switching out far less of an opportunity or "free turn" for the opponent sucks, but it also powers up the Pokemon that comes in. Togekiss is another example: it can pass Nasty Plot all day.

For this reason, I think that even QuickPass should be removed from the game. Many teams are not prepared for that, and those that pack specific counter-plays like PHazing moves can be dealt with if you add minimal team support, even though it isn't really required.

You could definitely make a case that the boosting moves themselves, especially Geomancy, are more broken than Baton Pass itself. I just think that even simple SD or NP passes are very tough to handle (which is why I chose the examples I did) and that even teams that are prepared for them have to play them straight (i.e. switching a Togekiss check in and not something else to "cheat" the BP) since those Pokemon are threats in their own right, and at worst they can dry pass and preserve a favorable game-state. I think banning set-up move + BP on the same set is a reasonable course of action though, especially since, despite what I said above, there is basically no precedent in tiering for banning things for the effects I mention above. U-turn has gotten basically non momentum (hehe) for a suspecting the way Scald has, and that's not coincidence.

Lastly, can you please add a disclaimer to the OP about this being a thread for people who play Smogon tiers?

 

[Zeffy]

I think the move itself isn't broken, and outright banning Baton Pass is just basically killing off another playstyle without looking at other possible options. I would say that the combination of a boosting move + Baton Pass is the factor that makes the BP playstyle quite devastating, because just Baton Pass alone is basically a non-offensive U-Turn/Volt Switch.

 

[srinator]

Except that baton pass cannot be pursuited. But there is some truth in that, a lot of mons use bp as a switching move like sylveon,celebi etc. although the latter does use np/sd but is imo not as broken as other users like iron defence scoli or even geopass. The support it requires is not even hard to pull of, I think rather than banning baton pass, we could have a complex ban where it cannot be paired with a move that increases two stats or more or just outright ban broken stuff like geomancy.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Again id like to bring up a point

> Most people use offense.
> Offense doesnt use phazing moves
> Baton Pass gets noticed because it bypasses "senpai revenge shitty little scarfer killing :seduce:"

This really warps the metagame and suspect tests and is imo kinda annoying. Im not arguing that BP is or isnt broken but i remember in past gens, most notably gens 2 and 3 when every team had a way to deal with BP whether that be Roar, WW, Perish Song, Haze etc if not Ninjask shit all over your team in gen 3 or JoltWak (gen 2's quickpass). I mean sure Espeon makes life harder sure but even then it hates to come in on alot of the pokes that threaten BP anyway or Taunters or phazers that bypass it. Even for dual screens --->pass, we have the spammed move, Defog.

I think the fundamental issue is that no one prepares for it now when we have even more shit to deal with it. I mean yeah its probably niche moves but why is other styles having to deal with alot of the cancerous pokemon this gen any different? Its a bit of a double standard and but as ive said "offensive players always get what they want". :\

EDIT:

Also smeargle is still shit lol. Its such a joke. :|

EDIT 2:

Quickpass aka Denisss rip off teams use Gothitelle alot. Enough said lol.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

idk, you could run stuff such as taunt+np thundurus, clear smog chandelure, shell smash cloyster or talonflame to beat full BP, and then smogonites thought "ehhhh let's see if you can beat other playstyles effectively!!" and this is why probably BP got nerfed. not that it isn't cancerous but you get my point.

personally i don't think baton pass should be outright banned, considering dry pass is a very healthy strategy for stuff such as celebi to escape pursuit

 

[Zeffy]

> Most people use offense.
> Offense doesnt use phazing moves
> Baton Pass gets noticed because it bypasses "senpai revenge shitty little scarfer killing :seduce:"

Err, so you're saying that all offensive teams should use phazing moves? I mean, I know, there's probably stuff where you can squeeze that in, but the lower priority might mean the end of the world for an offensive team. Plus BP teams are ALWAYS going to have something against phazers, no matter how shitty they may be.

re: defog vs dual screens: iirc defog only removes screens on the target's side of the field so it's useless if it gets bounced, and i assume most competent people who build a BP team puts this into consideration

 

[Anti]

Again id like to bring up a point

> Most people use offense.
> Offense doesnt use phazing moves
> Baton Pass gets noticed because it bypasses "senpai revenge mukty little scarfer killing :seduce:"

This really warps the metagame and suspect tests and is imo kinda annoying. Im not arguing that BP is or isnt broken but i remember in past gens, most notably gens 2 and 3 when every team had a way to deal with BP whether that be Roar, WW, Perish Song, Haze etc if not Ninjask muk all over your team in gen 3 or JoltWak (gen 2's quickpass). I mean sure Espeon makes life harder sure but even then it hates to come in on alot of the pokes that threaten BP anyway or Taunters or phazers that bypass it. Even for dual screens --->pass, we have the spammed move, Defog.

I think the fundamental issue is that no one prepares for it now when we have even more muk to deal with it. I mean yeah its probably niche moves but why is other styles having to deal with alot of the cancerous pokemon this gen any different? Its a bit of a double standard and but as ive said "offensive players always get what they want". :\

EDIT:

Also smeargle is still muk lol. Its such a joke. :|

EDIT 2:

Quickpass aka Denisss rip off teams use Gothitelle alot. Enough said lol.

what does gsc or adv have to do with anything? they're completely irrelevant.

look, i know you hate the bias in suspect testing, but it's completely clouding your view here. bp does not specialize in beating offense at all. there are plenty of stalls that struggle with it (and not just the ones with gothitelle). it's totally broken.

the difference between bp and *insert mega pokemon you don't like* is that bp is a tactic that is strong enough to free its user of needing to grasp strategy to win games. even the strongest megas cannot claim this, even some that have been banned.

(this last point is why i don't care if we remove the "bp playstyle" entirely, just quickly in reply to zeffy's post. most people see that as collateral, but i don't.)

 

[Dark Azelf]

what does gsc or adv have to do with anything? they're completely irrelevant.

How are they irrelevant? Baton Pass hasnt changed as a play style since then both quick and full bp teams. If you use PHazers you're good, if not you're fucked. Pretty simple. The only real issue and change is Espeon but thats another story.

Also good stall always answers to Baton Pass or should. Haze is a good move, WW/Roar/D-Tail are still a good moves on pokemon that threaten Espeon, as is Perish Song, Taunt etc. So that leaves more offensive teams who basically forgo phazing. That wasnt the case in past gens as ive already said. It has answers, people just dont want to use them lol which is the main problem.

Err, so you're saying that all offensive teams should use phazing moves? I mean, I know, there's probably stuff where you can squeeze that in, but the lower priority might mean the end of the world for an offensive team. Plus BP teams are ALWAYS going to have something against phazers, no matter how mukty they may be.

Nearly every good team did in GSC and ADV.

re: defog vs dual screens: iirc defog only removes screens on the target's side of the field so it's useless if it gets bounced, and i assume most competent people who build a BP team puts this into consideration

No defog removes it on both sides of the field regardless of bounce.

 

[Anti]

How are they irrelevant? Baton Pass hasnt changed as a play style since then both quick and full bp teams. If you use PHazers you're good, if not you're psyducked. Pretty simple. The only real issue and change is Espeon but thats another story.

Scolipede, Geomancy, and Espeon are tools that did not exist three or four generations ago. Even support options like Whimsicott greatly improve the functionality of a dedicated BP. The fact that you don't acknowledge this (and your comparison implicitly argues that it is trivial) raised some red flags for me...

Also, metagames have changed around DP. BP does not exist in a vacuum. You know why I don't prepare for BP when running an offense? Because I'd rather prepare for people who don't bring tactical teams (as opposed to the rest of the metagame being strategic teams) and I have a ton of other more common threats to deal with. You know, the ones you want to ban. I can't speak to GSC at all, but it's not exactly difficult to cover everything in Advance. (Also, Zapdos, Skarmory, Suicune, and Swampert are way better than any PHazer available in ORAS.) You have 6 Pokemon and 24 move slots per team. There is a way higher opportunity cost in both team slots and move slots now. Why would any play style, not just offense, want to run a suboptimal team slot or even move slot to deal with a play "style" that reduces the game to a series of tactical maneuvers? People also don't prepare for it because its counters are very specialized and are more difficult to fit into an actual strategy besides passive crit bait, which itself has better things to be running in a metagame that is tremendously hostile to stall.

Also, it's almost too obvious of a point to make, but there's a pretty good chance BP is stronger when it got nerfed twice, once without as much as a suspect test because it was such an obvious problem? It's not even a slippery slope fallacy to say "your logic can literally be used to argue against any restriction on BP in ORAS except Ingrain Smeargle" (which was a years-after-the-fact Advance-specific ban because it was ruining Advance tournaments). So much for "everyone dealt with BP in previous gens. lol.

It's an asinine comparison. Stop making it. The previous generations are not relevant. Period.

Also good stall always answers to Baton Pass or should. Haze is a good move, WW/Roar/D-Tail are still a good moves on pokemon that threaten Espeon, as is Perish Song, Taunt etc. So that leaves more offensive teams who basically forgo phazing. That wasnt the case in past gens as ive already said. It has answers, people just dont want to use them lol which is the main problem.

The implication of you making this statement (the last sentence) is that this is through some defect (presumably of either skill or mental proactivity in team-building) of the team builder, when in reality, it is ridiculous to expect people to prepare for it, especially when many of the so-called checks you list lose to a lot of BP teams. "Just pack a PHazer." Well, maybe only Skarmory and Zapdos fit on my offense or balance. (Balance doesn't exactly love facing BP either.) Oh, they both get boned by Espeon? Well, that's tough for me I guess.

Lastly, whether further restrictions on BP skew toward offensive players or not, that's not really relevant to whether or not BP is broken, and "it has some answers" is not convincing, just like "bulky Fire-types beat Mega Mawile" wasn't convincing.

It's just baffling to me that someone who hates the surplus of threats in ORAS and wants to ban many of them is defending the most blatantly uncompetitive strategy in the tier? (Or one of them: I'm not going to argue BP vs. Shadow Tag with anyone.)

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Nobody's going to like me for saying this; but this is an intrinsic problem / flaw with/in the singles format in general. I'm NOT saying 'you should stop playing it because there's problems hur dur' but recognizing that these sorts of things are inherent in this specific format would be directly contributory to creating what I think most of y'all (and swagon) want your meta to be. It's directly related to number one whipping boy/girl in this neck of the woods; gothitelle.

Things like baton pass / shadow tag take advantage of the very limited amount of moves a player can make in any situation in singles. Shadow Tag lets you pick things off one by one by trapping anything you know you can take; eliminating the switching so crucial to being able to do anything with only one pokemon on the field - and baton pass lets you exploit both sides only having one opponent to deal with by setting something up with little to means outside of previously mentioned extremely niche counters (haw haw) to stop it from happening; until one singular member of a team can steamroll the entire enemy team one by one again with very few options if any to stop it from happening.

imo things that exploit battle format should be weeded out if you wanna shoot for the noble vision of fair combat that - 'we want the meta to be'.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Ok firstly im not actually arguing that BP is or isnt broken. WIth that in mind, im actually arguing its people being lazy, just being outplayed or not using the (actually large amount of) things that can threaten it.

Scolipede, Geomancy, and Espeon are tools that did not exist three or four generations ago. Even support options like Whimsicott greatly improve the functionality of a dedicated BP. The fact that you don't acknowledge this (and your comparison implicitly argues that it is trivial) raised some red flags for me...

Firstly im going to go out on a limb and say Smeargle is a complete fucking joke. If you use sash you're fucked cos Geomancy takes 2 turns if you use Power Herb....you're still fucked because Smeargle cant set up on shit lol, even with dual screens. This is through experience, its just flat out bad. Ninjask and as thus Scoliopede are similar, that hasnt changed since gen 3. Whimsicott also has so many issues its unreal. Bisharp is omnipresent hell even other Defiant users are still a thing. Magic Bounce is still a thing. Metagross and Diance have clear body pre mega evoing. Memento means it has to kill itself to even be remotely useful. So in order to pass safely, Smeargle needs to hope: Dual Screens are up, SR isnt up (in the case of sash) or the fact that power herb is one use, the opponent doesnt have status or priority or one of the above mons ive mentioned. Seems pretty specific tbh. Things like this are common on offense so its not even "useless niche moves and pokes" tbh that negate it lol.

Also, metagames have changed around DP. BP does not exist in a vacuum. You know why I don't prepare for BP when running an offense? Because I'd rather prepare for people who don't bring tactical teams (as opposed to the rest of the metagame being strategic teams) and I have a ton of other more common threats to deal with. You know, the ones you want to ban.

Ok cool so anything with Taunt that threatens Espeon is suddenly bad and only deals with BP? Things like Taunt MDos, Taunt Talon, Thundurus etc arent useful outside of coincidentally dealing with BP too? Even sets like Dragon Tail Garchomp exist.

Also id like to see the argument for BP being able to set up and switch in on shit like Bisharp, Guesszard, Talon, Thundurus, Gengar etc or shit that hits remotely hard that BP cannot set up on, see: Keldeo and MGardy. Through experience it cannot switch in or set up on any of these things which leads to an auto loss for the BP user which no other play style has. I feel thats a fair risk-reward. This isnt even with "inferior moves" that is just sheer offensive pressure. :\

I can't speak to GSC at all, but it's not exactly difficult to cover everything in Advance. (Also, Zapdos, Skarmory, Suicune, and Swampert are way better than any PHazer available in ORAS.) You have 6 Pokemon and 24 move slots per team. There is a way higher opportunity cost in both team slots and move slots now. Why would any play style, not just offense, want to run a suboptimal team slot or even move slot to deal with a play "style" that reduces the game to a series of tactical maneuvers? People also don't prepare for it because its counters are very specialized and are more difficult to fit into an actual strategy besides passive crit bait, which itself has better things to be running in a metagame that is tremendously hostile to stall.

See above for "sub optimal sets and pokemon" stuff, these "sub optimal mons and sets" as you call them arent even the only way to pressure baton pass as ive said. Also funny you bring up crit bait, isnt Baton Pass itself crit bait? One crit and its again as ive said an auto 6-0 because the whole team goes down not long after.

Also, it's almost too obvious of a point to make, but there's a pretty good chance BP is stronger when it got nerfed twice, once without as much as a suspect test because it was such an obvious problem? It's not even a slippery slope fallacy to say "your logic can literally be used to argue against any restriction on BP in ORAS except Ingrain Smeargle" (which was a years-after-the-fact Advance-specific ban because it was ruining Advance tournaments). So much for "everyone dealt with BP in previous gens. lol.

It's an asinine comparison. Stop making it. The previous generations are not relevant. Period.

There must be a pretty good reason why Baton Pass wasnt touched for the 12 years previously but hey. Also this is the gen when Baton Pass had shit like Mean Look Taunt Umbreon. That doesnt exist anymore and whilst BP has gained some toys, its lost one of the biggest threats over the years. Also stop disregarding past gens, they do have precedent, especially something that has changed as little and as linear as Baton Pass.


The implication of you making this statement (the last sentence) is that this is through some defect (presumably of either skill or mental proactivity in team-building) of the team builder, when in reality, it is ridiculous to expect people to prepare for it, especially when many of the so-called checks you list lose to a lot of BP teams. "Just pack a PHazer." Well, maybe only Skarmory and Zapdos fit on my offense or balance. (Balance doesn't exactly love facing BP either.) Oh, they both get boned by Espeon? Well, that's tough for me I guess.

Again ive listed many things BP cant set up on or beat easily so i dont think its that ridiculous to have people prep for it given ive listed a good 10+ things that BP struggles with both on offense and stall. Also the last sentence is one of my biggest gripes this gen. Again im not arguing for if its broken or not, i just feel people are very lazy and offensive players get what they want. If something threatens senpai offense it gets suspected and banned but if something threatens stall or indeed balance, no one gives a shit because they are narrow sighted and dont care about other styles. Sad but true.

It's just baffling to me that someone who hates the surplus of threats in ORAS and wants to ban many of them is defending the most blatantly uncompetitive strategy in the tier? (Or one of them: I'm not going to argue BP vs. Shadow Tag with anyone.)

Id sooner face teams of BP than any mega and thats being honest lol. Again im not defending it, im just saying "why is it so hard to get one of the many things ive listed above or in my previous post on your teams?" i mean something like MegaGardy alone has less things that deals with it than that thwarts this whole style lol.

 

[Anti]

Ok firstly im not actually arguing that BP is or isnt broken. WIth that in mind, im actually arguing its people being lazy, just being outplayed or not using the (actually large amount of) things that can threaten it.

The cause at hand is Baton Pass, not the player-base. It's fine if you want to toss it around, but your perception is actively bending your perception.

Your arguments aren't really touching on why people dislike Baton Pass. As I mentioned a few times in my last post, people don't like that it takes skill out of the game. A common response to this is some strawman bullshit about how "BP takes skill to use," but when people say that BP takes skill out of the game, they're referring to strategic thinking, not tactical execution. Core ideas about winning competitive games like win conditions, strategic sacrificing, team preview analysis, etc. either do not apply to BP games or apply in an extremely limited way. This is reflected in the fact that BP puts all its eggs in one basket: if the opposing team counters it, it loses, and if not, it wins. No other team style functions that way. You can list counters all you want, but the truth is that those counters lose in many situations (Taunt Talon and Thund lose to any BP with screens, Scolipede can actually set up on a lot because of Iron Defense, Keldeo and Gardevoir have worlds of trouble playing around Whimsicott and stopping a GeoPass, etc.). Even when they don't, the point you're missing is that people do not want to prepare for uncompetitive playstyles.

The moral crusade about favoritism toward offense has grown tiresome.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Core ideas about winning competitive games like win conditions, strategic sacrificing, team preview analysis, etc. either do not apply to BP games or apply in an extremely limited way.

I disagree with this. Turn 1 if your opponent sends out Talonflame or Thundurus, what do you do as they either nasty plot twice (thundy just flat out 2hko's every BP member turn 1) or swords dance twice or Taunt as you try and speed pass with Scoliopede or w/e or if they lead off with Guesszard or Mega Gardy or Gengar? Looks like some win conditions AND team preview analysis right there. Even mid game Taunt Thundurus can stop Smeargle passing regardless of screens or at the worst, force it out. Thundurus and the like can even 2hko EVERYTHING on BP unboosted if you lead with it so i mean. There are alot of pokemon who can do this against BP.

This is reflected in the fact that BP puts all its eggs in one basket: if the opposing team counters it, it loses, and if not, it wins. No other team style functions that way. You can list counters all you want, but the truth is that those counters lose in many situations (Taunt Talon and Thund lose to any BP with screens, Scolipede can actually set up on a lot because of Iron Defense, Keldeo and Gardevoir have worlds of trouble playing around Whimsicott and stopping a GeoPass, etc.).

See above in regards to the pokes i mentioned.

I think the all or nothing applies to most most teams this gen thanks to the exacerbated team match up, so i dont understand how BP is any different in team match up with smart play and conserving win conditions etc and if you can successfully pull off a pass with all the shit ive named in previous posts running around you deserve to win. Its harder in practise than on paper to actually pass.

Again like i said before it seems the risk outweighs the reward for using BP. One poke gone = auto 6-0 loss.



Even when they don't, the point you're missing is that people do not want to prepare for uncompetitive playstyles.

Isnt this subjective? Some people think stall is uncompetitive and cheap too lol.

The moral crusade about favoritism toward offense has grown tiresome.

Ive not seen evidence of anything to suggest anything otherwise.

Well, maybe only Skarmory and Zapdos fit on my offense or balance. (Balance doesn't exactly love facing BP either.) Oh, they both get boned by Espeon? Well, that's tough for me I guess.

Where are Goth, Gardy, Manaphy etc suspect tests then for my stall? Because alot of stall players find those alot more broken/uncompetitive than BP.

 

[Anti]

Did you notice how I tried to avoid ruining the thread with a grueling multi-quote war no one wants to read? Luckily, I can be pretty concise here.

I disagree with this. Turn 1 if your opponent sends out Talonflame or Thundurus, what do you do as they either nasty plot twice or swords dance twice as you try and speed pass with Scoliopede or w/e or if they lead off with Guesszard or Mega Gardy? Looks like some win conditions AND team preview analysis right there. Even mid game Taunt Thundurus can stop Smeargle passing regardless of screens or at the worst, force it out.

These are tactical moves, not strategic ones.

I think the all or nothing applies to most alot of teams this gen so i dont understand how BP is any different in team match up and if you can successfully pull of a pass with all the muk ive named in previous posts running around you deserve to win. Its harder in practise than on paper to actually pass.

You need far more evidence that match-up is an issue in normal battles to the extent that it is with BP. This is an extremely simplistic representation of team match-up.

Isnt this subjective?

Of course it is. Tiering itself is subjective. We have to tier based on something. Competitiveness is a very valid criterion for tiering. Whether it's subjective or not (it is) isn't really compelling. What matters is whether or criteria are valid and how well we uphold them in practice. You'll have to speak to these issues if you want to challenge the crucial point I'm making. I'm not sure you do?

Ive not seen evidence of anything to suggest anything otherwise.

fallacy, fallacy

Where are Goth, Gardy, Manaphy etc suspect tests then? Oh...wait. :\ Just sayin.

fallacy, fallacy

 

[Nah]

idk, I kinda like reading all this

 

[DeadAlien]

Stuff like GeoPass, ScoliPass, SmashPass are all annoying and incredibly cheap. That said, I don't think ALL baton pass is bad, but passing incredible Speed AND Attack boosts combined is borderline broken. I wouldn't mind stuff like the ones I mentioned being banned. But honestly, I don't see too many teams running these strats, at least not to the point where it's a serious problem. Just an annoyance.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Seconded Nah.

I don't think it's ruining the thread because neither participant in that conversation is being nonsensical - and it's all at least relevant. There's no personal attacks or 100% ignorant dismissal of one another's words.

In keeping it relevant, I maintain that in singles baton pass is broken or borderline so - while in other formats it is not. But again, singles as a format is vulnerable to being exploited by a bunch of things - like shadow tag.

I really don't want gothitelle to get banned for one ability. Ban the ability not the poke. Just like with baton pass. Don't ban the passers. The move is the problem in the format not them.

This post is less thought out than usual for myself and may contain typoes- I made it from a phone at work :c