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Boy with toy gun killed by police

Nolafus

Aspiring something
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Rezilia said:
Tasers (that's how it's spelled btw) CAN reel back in.
Okay, now I know tasers can, thanks for correcting me.

Rezilia said:
The person above was saying that electric weapons like tasers should act like guns with bullets - thus, the projectile leaves the taser so that the range of fire is increased. By doing that, however, the user can no longer reel the electric part of the taser back in, which means they just lost their "ammo". If they need to change their target, they can't hit the new target. The projectile fired would have to be so large that it would take up enough of the taser to not be instantaneously reloadable.
So you're against these kinds of projectiles? But you said:
Rezilia said:
And if you think tasers can't be turned into more ranged weapons, you're wrong. What do you think projectile knives are for? It is easy to eject the electric part of tasers, having it set to go off at a certain time and only use only a certain amount of electricity at that time.
The reason I'm giving you such a hard time is because you keep changing what you're standing for constantly. It seems that in one post you have one view, then by the next post it's a complete turnaround. All I'm asking for is a little consistency.

I'm not seeing where 007_eleven's posts are being inaccurate about our society. If you're going to say that a person's responses are a certain way, quote them. Use the quote tags. I know you can use them, but I don't understand why you don't.

Rezilia said:
and if [007_eleven] lived here, he'd see why those points don't work. And yet, time and time again, he's been stating things he think will work 100% just because it worked in his nation.
Quote these instances. I'm not seeing them. I'm just trying to understand your point of view, but you're providing little to no evidence on your arguments. I think this is why people argue with you so much. You don't quote people and deal with their various arguments directly, you just lump their post into one big blob and try to cover it with a couple of sentences. That's one of the issues I'm having.

Rezilia said:
My point was not that tasers aren't lethal: it's that they aren't designed to be lethal, whereas guns ARE. Thus, tasers, for the most part, shouldn't kill anyone unless they glitch - that is to say, as long as you use the most recent editions. If you miss your target with a gun and hit a bystander, they're dead. Period. Some people DO have enough willpower to stay alive for more than one bullet, but most people don't. If you use a taser and miss, chances are that the bystander won't die - especially since modern day tasers' electricity can be stopped instantaneously by the user.
I think the problem of range still applies. Tasers have a very limited range, and will continue to have that limitation as long as the wires are connected to the projectiles. Now, the confusing part for me is that depending on which post of yours that I go off of, you could be for unattached projectiles, or against. That's the main problem I'm having.
 

Pilkie

Pokémon Breeder
96
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10
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Tasers have downsides though. The biggest being that some people can resist being tased. There isn't an overwhelming amount, but some people aren't stopped by tasers. I, myself, was tased once during a personal defense class (I was an assistant-teacher at a martial arts studio that offered urban personal defense classes). It knocked the breath out of me and make me fall to one knee, but in a few seconds I was back up (this wasn't a taser gun, it was a CQ taser, but it still pushes my point).

The benefit of shooting someone in a non vital area is that you know it is going to hurt them. I'm not saying tasers don't hurt (because they do), I'm saying that guns leave a lasting wound that forces criminals to stop or stops them from being able to get away. Now I know some people are going to say that it isn't right to shoot someone in the leg, but the truth is that it will heal and it will slow down or stop the criminal regardless of their tolerance.

The other issue with tasers and taser guns is that they are relatively new. While many police departments have armed their officers with tasers, there are just as many that cannot afford to/ don't have the time to arm and train their officers to use tasers. All officers train to use a gun, but only the newest officers are trained to use tasers in the police academy. A taser guns are much tricker to aim and use than a normal handgun because the barbs are heavy (so they drop faster than bullets) and you have to hit the perp somewhere the barbs will be able to penetrate, which can be tricky if they are wearing a heavy/padded jacket or backpack.

All in all, I believe all officers should have tasers, but the truth of the matter is we probably won't see nationwide use (USA) for at least a decade because by converting to tasers, departments will have to give up other resources that they cannot spare (namely time and money).
 
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@Pil

Okay, but if you shoot someone at certain point in the leg, you may kill off their ability to use that leg for the rest of their life.

--

Yes, you managed to survive from getting tased, but you went down - correct? That's the point. Tasers are only meant to stun or disable the opponent to give the police enough time to go in and detain them, or atleast get close enough to use melee tactics such as electric batons and those two martial arts I mentioned - and by using those, they can detain them.

Police are meant to detain, not kill. That's the issue here.

--

I understand that tasers most likely won't be used by everyone instantaneously. I understand and favor the concept of gradual change. However, the point is that no one's even thinking of using tasers as the main weapon of police. Because of this, they aren't focusing on training with tasers and, as such, there isn't enough funding going into taser development - which would decrease the weight of the barbs, etc.

Which is why I get to...

@Slayr

Jack Cover, the creator of Tasers, based the design off of one of his (fictional) childhood hero's adventures: Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle. This is why it was called Tom A. Swift's Electric Rifle - aka TASER.

The original rifle could do the following:

"Of foremost notice is Swift's invention of the electric rifle, a gun which fires bolts of electricity. The electric rifle can be calibrated to different levels of range, intensity and lethality; it can shoot through solid walls without leaving a hole, and is powerful enough to kill a rampaging whale, as in their steamer trek to Africa. With the electric rifle, Tom and friends bring down elephants, rhinoceroses, and buffalo, and save their lives several times in pitched battle with the red pygmies. It also can discharge a globe of light that was described as being able to maintain itself, like ball lightning, making hunting at night much safer in the dark of Africa. In appearance, the rifle looked very much like contemporary conventional rifles." - Wikipedia

Jack Cover, having studied Tom Swift extensively during his youth, understood that "range of lethality" included non-lethal, and so he based his Taser development on the idea of non-lethality. Now, Tasers CAN be adjusted in terms of lethality - from non-lethal degrees to lethal degrees. In other words, everything that Swift's rifle could do can eventually be done by tasers, ideally. That was the point. Absurd range included.

If you want to see the difference between how Tasers are now and how they're meant to be, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crzYlQUKkEY (0:50-1:20) < It just shows different abilities of the electric rifle, and then starts repeating them >.> It's from the game Pirate 101 which took the electric rifle concept and applied it to the game.

In other words, electric rifles should be able to do this: Fire balls of electricity, of which the intensity, range, and lethality can be adjusted. It can be used on multiple targets at once, either going sideways or even in a straight line. Electric Rifles should also be able to glow, which isn't a hard thing to add now, and may even be able to use electromagnetism to "burst fire" the electricity. As development progresses, the accuracy and size of the electric balls would be more controlled, even by the user. And plus: Instead of it having to reel in, it just has auto-fire. Seeing as it uses electricity, it can just self-recharge, when means auto-reload.


And rather than being as instantaneously lethal as a gun, it can be put on a non-lethal setting which can be raised if the opponent can resist.


But the above WON'T be done in taser development if no one takes tasers seriously. They could very well usher in a new age of non-lethal law enforcement, but only if police stop using guns at literally every turn.


------


Police, for now, use guns because they are trained to do so in the majority of situations. In the situation listed in the OP, they were only doing what they were taught to do.

In the U.S., police changing to taser use must be orchestrated by the government. Police themselves have no say, unless their policies allow them to use tasers in the majority of situations - and those policies don't.

Normal people should have access to guns if they are not trained in other ways of defending themselves, to the extent of police, soldiers, martial artists, etc.

Taser use should be the norm for police from now on, though for a time - as Pil said, perhaps a decade - having a gun just in case WOULD be justified.

The tragic incident we had in the OP could (COULD) have been avoided if the police were told to use tasers in such incidents, instead of guns. Instead, they were told to use guns.

^ Those are my points.
 
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I pretty much was going to say the kinds of things that Pilkie said. We probably all wish that police could be as effective as they can be without lethal force, but the practical side of things is that lethal force is more effective and efficient at the moment. Maybe if America wasn't rife with guns we would more quickly adopt non-lethal force as a preferred course of action in our police forces, but at the moment that's just a dream.

We should still push for it though. Tasers may be all the amazing things that they've been claimed to be, but they're new and guns have entrenched supports up and down the country.
 

CoffeeDrink

GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
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Why oh why, koff~

Guns is guns was guns will be guns. Always guns. They are never going away. Ever. Everyone say that slowly, because it's true. Repeat: I acknowledge that guns are a world problem, and I admit that firearms are going to persist for as long as I live, and as long as my children's children live.

Ever wonder why Somalian pirates can take over big ships? Guns. They do this often. Cargo ships do not normally have a means to defend themselves against such attacks. Arming a ship can be considered an act of war in the handy dandy war rule book. Guns are going to find their way into the hands of criminals; this will never fail to happen.

Let's say all law abiding citizens across the globe give up their guns. You know, just because Jesus/Mel Gibson/God/Morgan Freeman/Buddah/Tom Cruise/etc. asked them to. Will the drug runners, criminals, unlawful and rowdy citizens willingly stop using firearms? Hell no. Just drop the issue. It is never going to change, no matter how many laws, or how afraid of rifles you are, they will always be there. Just so you know, guns are not the enemy. Does an UZI 9mm just waltz into a bank and demand stacks and stacks of cash? Guns are not the real issue. Criminals are. Knives can be just as lethal, even more so than guns. Trust me, you don't ever want to go up against a knife. We have bullet proof vests, but no stab proof vests (none 'guaranteeing' ones anyway). So, yeah. Automatic weapons = illegal at all times. Law abiding citizens that own a fully automatic weapon? 0.
 
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Just so you know, guns are not the enemy. Does an UZI 9mm just waltz into a bank and demand stacks and stacks of cash? Guns are not the real issue. Criminals are. Knives can be just as lethal, even more so than guns. Trust me, you don't ever want to go up against a knife. We have bullet proof vests, but no stab proof vests (none 'guaranteeing' ones anyway).

Yes, because the mass murderer's weapons of choice are knives, swords, bows & arrows, etc.
 

Nolafus

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Yes, because the mass murderer's weapons of choice are knives, swords, bows & arrows, etc.
They have happened before.

June 8th 2001, mass murder at an elementary school, 8 children dead, 13 children wounded, 2 teachers wounded. Weapon of choice: Kitchen Knife

The site wouldn't give me the exact date, but in China, 27 people died in a mass murder. Weapon of choice, knifes.

April 10, 2013, mass stabbing (luckily no deaths), 14 students at a community college stabbed, 2 seriously injured. Choice of weapon, knife.

I'm not saying that knives are common, but they do happen. Guns are the choice of weapon in mass killings because they're the most efficient. However, they are not the only weapons used. There are a lot more cases like the ones above, so please do not say that mass murders won't happen if guns are banned.
 
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They have happened before.

June 8th 2001, mass murder at an elementary school, 8 children dead, 13 children wounded, 2 teachers wounded. Weapon of choice: Kitchen Knife

The site wouldn't give me the exact date, but in China, 27 people died in a mass murder. Weapon of choice, knifes.

April 10, 2013, mass stabbing (luckily no deaths), 14 students at a community college stabbed, 2 seriously injured. Choice of weapon, knife.

I'm not saying that knives are common, but they do happen. Guns are the choice of weapon in mass killings because they're the most efficient. However, they are not the only weapons used. There are a lot more cases like the ones above, so please do not say that mass murders won't happen if guns are banned.

Two instances out of a rather large sample (For instance, mass murders/shooting sprees in the US, say 2000-2013) is statistically meaningless. And even in the stabbing event in 2013 - 0 fatalities. And that's not even going into how long the killing sprees went on for, etc. I could walk into a croweded area and kill hundreds of people with a semi-automatic and a few extended mags in mere minutes. You can't produce the same amount of lethality with a knife. If that were the case, you know, more people would use knives.
 

Nolafus

Aspiring something
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Two instances out of a rather large sample (For instance, mass murders/shooting sprees in the US, say 2000-2013) is statistically meaningless. And even in the stabbing event in 2013 - 0 fatalities. And that's not even going into how long the killing sprees went on for, etc. I could walk into a croweded area and kill hundreds of people with a semi-automatic and a few extended mags in mere minutes. You can't produce the same amount of lethality with a knife. If that were the case, you know, more people would use knives.
Hence, why I added this section.
Slayr231 said:
I'm not saying that knives are common, but they do happen. Guns are the choice of weapon in mass killings because they're the most efficient. However, they are not the only weapons used. There are a lot more cases like the ones above, so please do not say that mass murders won't happen if guns are banned.
I just pulled the first three stories I found when I looked for mass murder with knives. There were lots more reports that I didn't post. Mass killings are a pretty rare occurrence in themselves. I agree that guns are more efficient and therefore used more commonly, because it would be kind of stupid to try to argue against that, but knives can be used too. I can pull more reports if you want me to, but like I said, there were a lot more stories I didn't post.
 

Pilkie

Pokémon Breeder
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Rezilia said:
Okay, but if you shoot someone at certain point in the leg, you may kill off their ability to use that leg for the rest of their life.

While it might be a dark way of viewing things, 99% of people would rather be paralyzed in one limb than dead by being shot in the chest. 'Acceptable Loses' in a way, I suppose. But I can see where you're coming from with taser guns. I would like to see all officers trained to use tasers, but I don't think it's happening any time soon.
 
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While it might be a dark way of viewing things, 99% of people would rather be paralyzed in one limb than dead by being shot in the chest.

Uhuh...because living life without being able to walk correctly is so great a thing.

Unless you've actually lost leg use before, you can't judge.
 

CoffeeDrink

GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
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Yes, because the mass murderer's weapons of choice are knives, swords, bows & arrows, etc.

Great. Way to go there. Feel better about yourself, koffi~

Again, you fail to miss the point. Guns are not the issue here. People are. People. People are killers. The people that do the killing. You know? The people that hold the weapon in their hands and make it go? Those people. Again, illegal weapons are always illegal, so gun control won't help in the slightest in that department. Same thing for Cocaine. Cocaine is illegal (albeit pricey). Do people still have it? Yes, of course they do. We have laws against it, but do these laws really prevent Richie Rich from scoring blow and snorting it off of Gloria Glad's bosom!

Handguns can fit anywhere on one's body. I have a .22 it is around four inches long; I can fit this nearly anywhere on my person. Before you spout that .22 caliber weapons are not lethal, there is a reason why it was the chosen assassination weapon for the Sicilian Mafia: small, easy to toss, hard to find, and nearly untraceable due to the shattering of the bullets. And stop calling them mass murderers and terrorists for crissakes! You just feed yourself fear pie because of it. They're just murderers, plain and simple. Oh, and bombs are worse, just fyi. They kill more, they damage more, they're messy, inaccurate and readily available, more so than handguns, if one knew what to mix properly. If it came down to a vote, I'd vote for guns over bombs any day of the week, koffi~


While it might be a dark way of viewing things, 99% of people would rather be paralyzed in one limb than dead by being shot in the chest. 'Acceptable Loses' in a way, I suppose. But I can see where you're coming from with taser guns. I would like to see all officers trained to use tasers, but I don't think it's happening any time soon.

They'll sue you for millions in potential damages. Even if they don't win, the people are still paying to keep the bastard in prison along with his lawyer fees, medical fees, etc. The reasoning is shoot to kill, because 'cruel and unusual punishment' is brought up in cases such as this. Some officers have even lost they're jobs over stuff like this. Again, Haiti hands, not trained to shoot legs or arms, split second decision making under extreme and nonequivalent pressure. People here have raised the argument that handguns are dangerous because of bystanders. Bystander death does not happen as often as you think, and most of these are from gang hangers; the more you know. . .

Edit: See? See what I did there? Honestly though, why is gang and banger bad when merged together? Merriam-Webster defines them as "A member of a street gang." Unless you're thinking it's something dirty. In that case, shame on you. As one word it refers to a member of a street gang. Two words though. . . you guys may need to fix that. Technically it isn't a 'dirty' word. What would you like me to call them instead in short hand? Gang members. Or just Gangers. That makes no sense. Thugs it is!

Fun activity: place your hand in front of your face. Is your hand bigger than your head? No? That's strange. I could have sworn someone said to shoot at the arms or legs. The hand is a smaller target than the head, right? What about the leg? Is it wider than the chest? It isn't you say? Really? Hm. . . so ergo, you have less chance of missing while shooting at the largest targets on the body! This is common sense people!

If you've never been down to a gun range or never even held a gun, you can not really talk of how a gun functions in reality. You haven't felt it, you have no idea how things work, and you've never killed paper. Go down to the local range, shell out $40 and have someone help you out. Then you can talk about how hard it is to hit things. I've seen Marines drop rounds in the dirt at 5 feet. Hell, I've seen everyone (including myself) drop rounds in the dust, and we aren't being threatened by someone that could take our families away from us without care.

You want police to be there on time, but you want them to be accurate as well. You want them to have the best technology, but complain about raised taxes. You want more police officers, but don't want junkies walking around downtown. You want less taxes, but don't like the death penalty. Make up your mind people! Either you want the police to do their job or not. I don't think anyone here has any right (including myself) to say how the police should function if we're not willing to allow some leeway. You can't have the best of the best of the best (sir!) officers and not have screwups on the force. People are peole. We can make our own choices. I choose to own my weapons, they do not own me. I don't go out shooting at people just because. True, there are people who do, most of them without their own weapons! Funfact: Sandy Hook had to kill his mother to steal her weapons. Even if she kept it under lock and key (she did, I believe), if she died, he can find said key and take his sweet time driving to school. I hate school shootings more than anyone else on this board. I swear. If you think I'm lying I'll bop you on your digital nose.

Shootings constantly have an effect on people. They turn regular Joes into anti-gun fanatics. I have to defend my right to owning something when they have no clue what works, and what does not. They confound themselves on the technology of the machines. "He used an assault rifle." or "He used a machine gun." and "it was an automatic, capable of ending hundreds of lives in a crowd" You can't end hundreds of lives in a crowd kid, not unless you have 'elite' training, and my gut tells me you never will. First off: assault weapon? False. Semi-automatic rifle. Machine gun? See previous. Mass destruction? See bomb. School shootings make everyone around me act like retarded donkey-monkey-mammoth-walrus-pig children. Guns are bad. Ergo, everyone who chooses to own a gun is bad. I hate school shootings so much, I'm a proponent for the murders that use chainsaws, knives, bombs, and various other weapons so I don't have to see hollow artificial articles or advertisements with actors and what not. Someone in a similar claimed that child shooting victims are patriots to the NRA and gun companies. Hate to shatter your illusion, but every company or politician that used Sandy Hook in their anti-gun speeches were using those 'patriots' as a stepping stool. Those kids were used by everybody, not just the gun nuts.

Saying that guns are the problem is like saying needles are the problem for our junkie population. What the hell? What kind of logic is that? "Guns are bad because bad guys use them." Well then, by that logic, I want you to strip naked, run out your front door without nothing and never look back. Why? Because bad guys use everything, koffi~

Sorry. Overtime I lose my train of thought and trail off on something that is completely Helter Skelter. Forgive me. Just know, that school shootings would be much better if they were something else. It wouldn't be breeding all this animosity between us. Final Boss Weakness (last Protip): all things can be used as a potentially lethal weapon. I've had a school book taken away from me once because I was 'carrying it around like it was a rifle', the hell? School shootings really cut down the view of everyone. One side sees the end game, while the other sees the now. What everyone fails to see is that it's the kids that get harmed in the process. Kids suspended for blue hair. Had a kid get his little lightsaber keychain because it was a construed as a 'weapon' even though it was fastened to his backpack. Girls suspended for pierced lips. This is what happened with Columbine. We narrowed our view down so much we completely went bonkers and off the deep end. Please. We have more guns/violent videogames/metal/pornagraphy/etc. now than we did in 1927, but that didn't stop a man from killing 45 people with bombs now did it? Please, please, please understand. Guns can't ever go away. They've been around longer than everyone in this thread has been alive combined. Baddies will always be with us. They'll always find a way to torment you, harm you, kill or maim you. Even if you take away the guns, knives, etc. They'll be there sharpening a toothbrush or a comb, a screwdriver or anything else they can lay their hands on. Again, guns are not the enemy (see UZI post I made in paint. It's awesome). Bad guys are the enemy. Can we all agree on that? Bad guys being the enemy?

edit re-edit: before you get all mad at me for 'avoiding your censor' and what not. The word is in the dictionary. And it does refer to what I stated. Members of a gang. It's been in use since the late 60's I believe. Not trying to be rude, but it is a very common term when referring to gang members. Cops will know what you're talking about when you say the 'censored' word. Very strange. Never thought I'd ever see that one censored.
 
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of course this comes to a gun control debate.

This "banning guns" argument, to me, seems a bit unnecessary. I understand why it happens, and I see that it happens all around the nation, but the fact of the matter is is that our nation was founded on the constitution as our governing document. We follow that to a T. We aren't going to remove anything, and even if Congress passed a law that amended it, I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court would label it as unconstitutional.

Do I think that its the right thing to ban guns? Yes, I'm on the side that all guns in the United States should be illegal, with very rare circumstances, or at the very least very, very strict control and rights to gun ownership. But the fact of the matter remains, and the way our country was founded and how that document clearly labels our rights as citizens, anything that goes against it will be thrown out the window. No matter how many events like these occur, nothing like that will change.
 
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common sense

Saying that guns are the problem is like saying needles are the problem for our junkie population. What the hell? What kind of logic is that? "Guns are bad because bad guys use them." Well then, by that logic, I want you to strip naked, run out your front door without nothing and never look back. Why? Because bad guys use everything, koffi~

all things can be used as a potentially lethal weapon.

Kids suspended for blue hair. Had a kid get his little lightsaber keychain because it was a construed as a 'weapon' even though it was fastened to his backpack. Girls suspended for pierced lips.

Never thought I'd ever see that one censored.

You and I are of the rare few on these forums that have it, I swear.

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AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

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Vindictus. Yup. Everything. I can even use monsters to slam in other monsters' faces. Yup.

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Don't you know blue hair is a sign of Satan worship? Seriously, though, this is why I hate dress codes and rulebooks.

--

Dude, I've seen a blank piece of paper censored before.
 
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Please, everyone. Let's try and keep this as civil as we can and do our best not to insult the intelligence of each other. We disagree on things, but that doesn't mean we lack common sense or don't understand anything.
 

shadowmoon522

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Saying that guns are the problem is like saying needles are the problem for our junkie population. What the hell? What kind of logic is that? "Guns are bad because bad guys use them." Well then, by that logic, I want you to strip naked, run out your front door without nothing and never look back. Why? Because bad guys use everything, koffi~

all things can be used as a potentially lethal weapon.

Kids suspended for blue hair. Had a kid get his little lightsaber keychain because it was a construed as a 'weapon' even though it was fastened to his backpack. Girls suspended for pierced lips.

Never thought I'd ever see that one censored.

you can kill someone with a freaking spoon or house key. hit someone with just enough power at the right spot with a text book & their down for the count. pencils can be stabbed though someones thought & even without that there's the possible lead poisoning. crayons and paper can be used to choke people to death. heck, back when i was a kid(though i was more of a little demon back then) i nearly killed my teacher with a chair. all these things that are common & even mandatory in schools. the whole problem here is not the guns, its not anything on TV or in a video game, the problem is parents are to quick to blame the object rather then blaming whose really at fault. namely the ones who are to scared of the objects power to teach their children how to properly use it.
 
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you can kill someone with a freaking spoon or house key. hit someone with just enough power at the right spot with a text book & their down for the count. pencils can be stabbed though someones thought & even without that there's the possible lead poisoning. crayons and paper can be used to choke people to death. heck, back when i was a kid(though i was more of a little demon back then) i nearly killed my teacher with a chair. all these things that are common & even mandatory in schools. the whole problem here is not the guns, its not anything on TV or in a video game, the problem is parents are to quick to blame the object rather then blaming whose really at fault. namely the ones who are to scared of the objects power to teach their children how to properly use it.

Aaaaaaand just how many killings plastered all over the U.S. news the last year or so involved crayons, paper, pencils, spoons, housekeys, etc?
 

Karinmo

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Due to the past even stated in the article, i can tell the would be on high alert- BUT i choose not to take a major side, just due to the fact the law was there, but hell, the kids 13, and they're all a little crazy. I dont believe the kid was a threat- and the police over reacted. Maybe if they explained to him the rule he would have understood and went home.
But now a child, a very young one to boot, is dead because of a mistake and a gun that could have just been made wrong/made for a diffrent state.
I feel sorry for all who are involved and that a mistake had caused this.
Sorry this post was a little all over the place- its a hard topic. :/
 
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