Changes in type dynamics

[Thunderflare]

I'm sure all of you know that Grass and Ice types could use some major buffs. I also note that Bug and Rock types could use a boost and Water types need a nerf.

First off, make Bug types super effective and resistant to Water types. Insects can last quite well under water, so this makes a bit of sense. It would also make Bugs more useful and give more utility to those Water/Flying types. While we're at it, have Bugs resist Electric and Ice type attacks. This would make Bugs an efficient wall against most Water types and give them some more safe switch ins.

Rock types should be resistant to Electric types (rock is a poor conductor of Electricity), other Rock types (seriously, how is that not already implemented?), and maybe Ice types.

Grass types, I think should be resistant to Psychic types (because...they're plants), Fairy types, and Rock types. That will seriously help them out.

Ice types are a little tricky. Maybe make them super effective to Steel, which would be an interesting relationship between the types. But I think what Ice needs most of all is more diverse moves. Another priority move, the special equivalent of King's Shield, an entry hazard, more moves that can land super effect on specific types, Hail lowering the power of Fire type attacks, an item that only increases the Defense and Special Defense of Ice types, and most important of all...a move that freezes the target. None of that 10% chance nonsense; an actual move for that status condition. Make the Ice types about controlling the field, to help with their weaknesses.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions you think would be better or questions about mine?

 

[LilBueno]

I'm not well-versed in type balances so I'm not entirely sure how this would affect the overall dynamic of all types, but I always thought Dragon should have been weak against Steel.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

The only buffs Ice types need is a Hail buff and, most importantly, being able to learn Water moves since, much like Rock and Ground types, Water and Ice types are similar, so it's only fair they learn their counterpart's moves. It'll also cover its Fire weakness. While on the subject of counterparts, both Water and Ice types have completely different weaknesses, so removing Rock's weakness to Grass and Water would help differentiate it from Ground types (plus I really can't imagine solid rocks irl being destroyed by plants or water).

 

[MarinoKadame]

Rock is weak to Water and Grass because of erosion and also plant rooting in crevasse.

 

[ProfChaos]

i personally think they got carried away with the types. Should have stopped at dark and steel. or at least have more pure types than dual typings. i feel like nearly every pkm can have something super effective against any type. which is silly. i'll often fight many consecutive battles (in the battle masion for example) where every move that isn't a buff of debuff does super effective dmg from all pkm on the field.

 

[Sopheria]

I don't think there will ever be a 100% perfect balance between the types, and there's definitely a few that could use a boost and others that could stand to be nerfed a bit, but I feel like it's a little too soon for them to change the type dynamics again since they've already introduced a new type relatively recently.

I think the best way to create more balance between the types at this stage would be to introduce stronger Pokémon for certain types (such as Poison and Bug, to name just a few), and maybe introduce fewer Water-types, since there's already so many of them in comparison to other types.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

I don't think there will ever be a 100% perfect balance between the types, and there's definitely a few that could use a boost and others that could stand to be nerfed a bit, but I feel like it's a little too soon for them to change the type dynamics again since they've already introduced a new type relatively recently.

I think youtuber Razorfist has already mentioned that in RPGs, there will always be a better class (in this case, a better type).

I think the best way to create more balance between the types at this stage would be to introduce stronger Pokémon for certain types (such as Poison and Bug, to name just a few), and maybe introduce fewer Water-types, since there's already so many of them in comparison to other types.

It feels like a copout to introduce stronger Pokemon for certain types rather than buffing veteran Pokemon for those certain type. It's a reason why there's so few Ice, Rock, Poison, and Fire types in OU, because the other stronger Pokemon for those types still aren't considered good enough to be OU-material.

 

[Hikamaru]

Like Cathy said, it'd be too soon to change type dynamics and interaction especially given we only recently added Fairy-type already and we still need to get used to it.

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

I do think that they should at least buff up the Grass-type. It is one of the three main starter types and it is always the worst choice to go with. Grass-typing is a liability in most cases and isn't really helpful at all. Want to hit those Water-types for supereffective? Get an Electric-type. Only one weakness. Besides, the Water-types come packing ice moves anyway, so it becomes even more unfair. And if you want to hit a Rock or Ground type, just get a Water-type. They become unnecessary and redundant.

Grass-types could be resistant to Fairy, but Psychic doesn't make much sense to me. I can also see Rock being quite handy. Honestly though, I think their offensive presence could use the boost rather than defensive, as they are pretty easy to take down as is. Adding more powerful Grass-type moves and more accurate ones would make them better able to compete with Electric-types in hitting Water. (Not just Solar Beam which takes two turns to charge) And making such moves more common, as Grass-types are mostly just for status effects. They should also create more attacks that cause statuses in addition to doing damage to supplement their theme. This would make them less redundant. Perhaps Grass-type moves have Sleep as their side status effect in addition to damage. Not only would this be really unique, but as long as you make these moves Grass-type exclusive, I don't think it'd be overpowered because Grass-types have a poor defensive presence as is. Confusion could also work as a side status. Focus more on the aspect of Grass-types concentrating on debilitating their opponents so that they don't hit them as much, and you can compensate for their weaknesses and make them a viable choice alongside Water and Electric-types for countering the types they're strong against.

Then Ice. What could we do to make Ice better? Other than adding some resistances and such, I think that when an Ice-type moved is used by an Ice-type, it should have a higher chance of freezing. This makes them stand out from Water-types and become less redundant. Add more Ice-types as well, and give them more ability to use Water-type moves. As someone else said before me. I mean, it's only fair, right?

Type redundancy is a big issue in Pokemon, and I do think they need to work on distinguishing them more.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

They should make Ice resistant to water, flying, and grass (though grass will be further knocked down). Interestingly Ice is the only type super effective against the last two that doesn't also resist said types.

 

[gimmepie]

I do think that they should at least buff up the Grass-type. It is one of the three main starter types and it is always the worst choice to go with. Grass-typing is a liability in most cases and isn't really helpful at all. Want to hit those Water-types for supereffective? Get an Electric-type. Only one weakness. Besides, the Water-types come packing ice moves anyway, so it becomes even more unfair. And if you want to hit a Rock or Ground type, just get a Water-type. They become unnecessary and redundant.

I just thought I should point out that Grass is not always the worst choice at all, in game. In gens 1, 3 and 4 the first gym is rock which is weak to grass. In gen 1 the next gym is also weak to grass and the one after that is resisted by it. In gen 3 the next gym is neutral and the one after is resisted by grass. In gen four the next one is resisted by grass and the next neutral (or possibly weak to since in D/P either Maylene or Wake can be challenged third). So in half the gens grass is arguably the best choice.

Now competitively speaking, grass has a lot of weaknesses but it also has a lot of very potent sweepers across the various metas and hits the very common ground and water types super-effectively. It even has a couple of decent bulky pokemon in OU.

Also to jump on a few other types people think suck but actually are not that bad, and also the ones that are OP.

Ice is an extremely poor defensive type, but offensively it hits a lot of types hard. Dragon, Grass, Ground and Flying are all weak to Ice moves and are all fairly common. Though the others more than grass. On top of this a lot of pokemon have a 4X weakness to ice due to their type combinations.

Steel isn't nearly as OP defensively anymore with its nerf and is weak to very common offensive types. But it doesn't suck offensively anymore either because now it can hit three types super effectively.

Fairy isn't OP because poison, steel and fire cause it issues and are all fairly common. In fact, fairy balanced the meta game a lot by nerfing dragons and bumping poison, steel and fire.

The only type that has serious issues is Bug, and even then there's some pretty powerful bugs and they often have decent coverage or a good dual type. I think more diversity in secondary typing is all bug needs.

So I guess my answer is, the type chart is the most balanced it has ever been right now and doesn't need changing at all. So I hope they leave it as is and focus on introducing pokemon that remedy issues rather than altering currently great battle mechanics.

 

[Hikamaru]

The only type that has serious issues is Bug, and even then there's some pretty powerful bugs and they often have decent coverage or a good dual type. I think more diversity in secondary typing is all bug needs.

So I guess my answer is, the type chart is the most balanced it has ever been right now and doesn't need changing at all. So I hope they leave it as is and focus on introducing pokemon that remedy issues rather than altering currently great battle mechanics.

You made some good points about Grass and Ice, they may have a lot of weaknesses but still have a fair share of presence competitively due to having advantages over some common types.

But as for Bug, I do agree with you. It's probably got the worst offensive coverage so far, with Bug attacks being resisted by seven types now that Fairy was added to the Bug-resistant roster, but thankfully we do have a lot of Bug-types from recent generations having unique type combinations that can help them cover more. Plus, we have some strong Bug-types like Heracross, Scizor, Volcarona, Pinsir etc. Even Vivillon can be quite threatening with its Compound Eyes Hurricane. Yanmega, Scolipede and Ninjask have the useful Speed Boost, Crustle is a great Shell Smash user, Galvantula is a fast Sticky Web user, Beedrill has a fast and powerful Mega, and don't forget the defensive wall that is Shuckle.

I agree with Gimme, the type chart doesn't really need any more changes at present.

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

I just thought I should point out that Grass is not always the worst choice at all, in game. In gens 1, 3 and 4 the first gym is rock which is weak to grass. In gen 1 the next gym is also weak to grass and the one after that is resisted by it. In gen 3 the next gym is neutral and the one after is resisted by grass. In gen four the next one is resisted by grass and the next neutral (or possibly weak to since in D/P either Maylene or Wake can be challenged third). So in half the gens grass is arguably the best choice.

That may be so, but when the Grass-type's strengths can be covered by Water and Electric-types. both of which are superior defensively in every way. My point is that the Grass-type is redundant the way it is handled now, and in fact inferior to these two types. Don't get me wrong. I love the Grass-type and usually choose that starter, but almost always, its moves and typing aren't as helpful as others. Why use a Grass-type to hit Rock or Ground when you can use a Water-type? Water-types are much more resistant and far more common to obtain. Electric-types can also be easily obtained in most games. (Though admittedly, they don't have as much variety as Grass-types, but my point still stands) The only thing to really set them apart is their array of status moves and resistance to powders, which still isn't all that useful in-game anyway. This isn't balanced if there are options that are almost always better. They need to be set apart from the other types they compete with. And yeah, there are Water/Ground types which Grass hits really hard supereffectively, but there aren't enough of those to really warrant the Grass-type standing out.

Ice is an extremely poor defensive type, but offensively it hits a lot of types hard. Dragon, Grass, Ground and Flying are all weak to Ice moves and are all fairly common. Though the others more than grass. On top of this a lot of pokemon have a 4X weakness to ice due to their type combinations.

Yes, it is a good offensive type. But this only means that Ice-type MOVES are useful, not the Pokemon themselves. Grab yourself a Water-type, load Ice Beam onto it, and you don't even need to look at an Ice-type. Because again, as I said with the Grass-type, Ice-type Pokemon are made redundant and inferior by other types that do its job better. In this case, the Water-type yet again. It's a very narrow type with not very much to set it apart aside from Hail, and because of how uncommon Ice-types are in comparison to Water-types, they're even less likely to be used. This also is unbalanced.

Whilst the chart has improved over the years, it is still severely flawed. I blame that on them having too many elements. It makes balance much more challenging than in other games that opt for a much more simpler elemental set-up. I doubt it will ever be fully balanced.

 

[gimmepie]

That may be so, but when the Grass-type's strengths can be covered by Water and Electric-types. both of which are superior defensively in every way. My point is that the Grass-type is redundant the way it is handled now, and in fact inferior to these two types. Don't get me wrong. I love the Grass-type and usually choose that starter, but almost always, its moves and typing aren't as helpful as others. Why use a Grass-type to hit Rock or Ground when you can use a Water-type? Water-types are much more resistant and far more common to obtain. Electric-types can also be easily obtained in most games. (Though admittedly, they don't have as much variety as Grass-types, but my point still stands) The only thing to really set them apart is their array of status moves and resistance to powders, which still isn't all that useful in-game anyway. This isn't balanced if there are options that are almost always better. They need to be set apart from the other types they compete with. And yeah, there are Water/Ground types which Grass hits really hard supereffectively, but there aren't enough of those to really warrant the Grass-type standing out.

Water types get murdered by common electric and grass sweepers. Electric types typically have very narrow movepools and terrible defences. Water types hit three types super-effectively and grass types hit three (including water) also. There's no denying that water is a good type but you underestimate grass. Grass and water also both have four resistances. Grass has more weaknesses but it also blocks spore and other powder moves, has great synergy with a lot of team mate options and can be a part of some really good dual types (ie. Ferrothorn or Mega-Sceptile).

Yes, it is a good offensive type. But this only means that Ice-type MOVES are useful, not the Pokemon themselves. Grab yourself a Water-type, load Ice Beam onto it, and you don't even need to look at an Ice-type. Because again, as I said with the Grass-type, Ice-type Pokemon are made redundant and inferior by other types that do its job better. In this case, the Water-type yet again. It's a very narrow type with not very much to set it apart aside from Hail, and because of how uncommon Ice-types are in comparison to Water-types, they're even less likely to be used. This also is unbalanced.

There are several very powerful ice pokemon. Weavile is one of the best sweepers in the game, Kyurem is beastly, Mamoswine can break through unprepared teams with ease, Avalugg has enormous defence and is a decent hazard setter, Frosslass is a decent lead and has an enormous movepool. On top of that Ice is often dual typed with water which removes a lot of its weaknesses.

Whilst the chart has improved over the years, it is still severely flawed. I blame that on them having too many elements. It makes balance much more challenging than in other games that opt for a much more simpler elemental set-up. I doubt it will ever be fully balanced.

The type chart is extremely balanced. There are no types that severely need buffs or nerfs. For the most part the meta isn't owned by one type with nothing that can counter it (ie. gen 1 psychics or gen 3-5 dragons). In-game every type is equally viable really since pretty much anything can work in-game if you remember coverage moves and switching. Even ground which is easily the most dangerous type in the meta is easily dealt with if you're smart. The type chart doesn't need any changing.

You *vastly* over-estimate the water type. It's a good type definitely but it's not like dragons or psychics were by a long shot. Now those were unbalanced days.

 

[Ho-Oh]

RE: Thunderflare's post: Bugs SE on Water... yeah... I have a pool here and there's so many dead bugs in there that I really doubt bugs can last in water. I mean if they were smart and clung to the edge, maybe... but real life wise that doesn't compute with me. Agree with Rock and Electric, Ground is so why not Rock? For Ice SE on Steel: I can't imagine me grabbing an ice block from the fridge and smashing it against a steel rod will do anyone any good (it will just hurt me) so I'm not quite convinced on that one.

RE: Arylett Carnoa's post: I think the reason for Grass being weaker is simply because of real life dynamics. You can drown under water, you can burn to a crisp and die from inhalling smoke in real life... but grass? The worst you can do is put green on your new jeans. There's not much grass can do in real life, and that's why I think that grass is sort of stuck there. In real life it can't really do anything to hurt you, other than prickles from a rose (and our main rose related Pokemon doesn't even have Iron Barbs...) and I think it should stay that way. A better three way would've been Fire/Water/Electric (although it doesn't cycle through you can always make fire supereffective on electric types because fires can come from short circuiting electrical outlets!) Probably not going to change the main three-way though.

Overall I agree that bug type Pokemon and ice type Pokemon have problems (more so ice, as some of the most powerful Pokemon are bug type) but it's probably not going to change. While I'd love to assume that it might happen in these games, I think they had the prime opportunity to do so when adding the fairy type - why not change a few other things to balance out more?

There's probably more practical ways to fix the ice type at least, like for example, by making hail more useful. Spread snow warning out to more Pokemon (adding two abilities at once to a Pokemon to use actively would be cool & you decide at the start of the match, but that's just wishful thinking), increase speed and attack of ice type Pokemon in hail, create more freezing-related moves (such as a move to freeze - like burn and thunderwave). These are all things that can easily be done and make ice types more viable without changing type charts (and all super likely too!)

For the bug type it's a lot harder. Stealth rock makes life really hard. Maybe by altering SR to only have 2x effectiveness, rather than 4x effectiveness on flying/bug type Pokemon. It'll make you want to switch in your bug type more often, at least. Maybe spread Powder around a lot more and make a similar rock-related one might help but I don't think there's much else that can be done for bug without altering the type chart.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Water types get murdered by common electric and grass sweepers. Electric types typically have very narrow movepools and terrible defences. Water types hit three types super-effectively and grass types hit three (including water) also. There's no denying that water is a good type but you underestimate grass. Grass and water also both have four resistances. Grass has more weaknesses but it also blocks spore and other powder moves, has great synergy with a lot of team mate options and can be a part of some really good dual types (ie. Ferrothorn or Mega-Sceptile).

Let's take a look at the current OU list. According to the list, there are 6 Water types and 5 Grass types. That looks fairly balanced, so your point is justified.

There are several very powerful ice pokemon. Weavile is one of the best sweepers in the game, Kyurem is beastly, Mamoswine can break through unprepared teams with ease, Avalugg has enormous defence and is a decent hazard setter, Frosslass is a decent lead and has an enormous movepool. On top of that Ice is often dual typed with water which removes a lot of its weaknesses.

Now this I have to disagree. Referring back to the OU tier list, we have Black Kyurem and Weavile as our only powerful Ice types in the metagame. Compare that to our 6 Water types, this is really unbalanced. The rest of the Ice types you've listed are in UU and RU, which contain vastly inferior Pokemon to the main metagame that is OU.

The type chart is extremely balanced. There are no types that severely need buffs or nerfs. For the most part the meta isn't owned by one type with nothing that can counter it (ie. gen 1 psychics or gen 3-5 dragons). In-game every type is equally viable really since pretty much anything can work in-game if you remember coverage moves and switching. Even ground which is easily the most dangerous type in the meta is easily dealt with if you're smart. The type chart doesn't need any changing.

Actually, gimmepie, the meta is owned by not one, but three types. We have 12 Psychic types, 10 Steel types, and 8.5 Flying types. As you can see, Psychic types are OP once again, and because we have too few Fire types along with Ground types and Fighting types not going above 5, there's no way of shrinking down the number of these Steel types to a more balanced number. The same applies to Flying types, having too few Rock and Ice types to counter them, while their superior alternatives, Ground and Water types, and Electric types aren't going above 5-6 to stop them.

 

[gimmepie]

Let's take a look at the current OU list. According to the list, there are 6 Water types and 5 Grass types. That looks fairly balanced, so your point is justified.



Now this I have to disagree. Referring back to the OU tier list, we have Black Kyurem and Weavile as our only powerful Ice types in the metagame. Compare that to our 6 Water types, this is really unbalanced. The rest of the Ice types you've listed are in UU and RU, which contain vastly inferior Pokemon to the main metagame that is OU.



Actually, gimmepie, the meta is owned by not one, but three types. We have 12 Psychic types, 10 Steel types, and 8.5 Flying types. As you can see, Psychic types are OP once again, and because we have too few Fire types along with Ground types and Fighting types not going above 5, there's no way of shrinking down the number of these Steel types to a more balanced number. The same applies to Flying types, having too few Rock and Ice types to counter them, while their superior alternatives, Ground and Water types, and Electric types aren't going above 5-6 to stop them.

Remember that the games themselves don't have to take the meta into account. But if you want to talk about the meta, Weavile and Black-Kyurem might be the only notable ice types in OU but in their respective tiers other ice pokemon function very well.

Also, if you think that psychic types own the meta you might want to play a bit more frequently xD
There's a decent number of psychic pokemon in OU but they are far from being OP like they were in gen 1 with the abundance of dark and steel type Pokemon and gengar still running about. More to the point though, when I talk about "owning the meta" I'm not talking necessarily about the number of that type in OU, I'm talking about commonality, offensive and defensive presence and how hard they are to counter. As far as that goes Ground is by far the most threatening type in the meta, there's a reason that Landorus, Gliscor and Excadrill are everywhere and for Dugtrio's surprising popularity lately (at least in my experience). They tend to be far more threatening pokemon that the majority of psychic and steel types.

But anyway where getting into something totally different now, at least we're agreed that the type chart doesn't really need to change.