[CRITICSM] Past and present of ROM hacking

[Martin Yiu]

Past and present of ROM hacking

Hello! I'm here to say something about ROM hacking. IT's a bit of criticsm and a bit of glorification. You need to look at the thread from various points of view. It's just my opinion, but generally, this thread will give some critics and talk about "modern trends" of ROM hacking.

Once upon a time, world of ROM hacking was better...
There were many hack with great potential, almost none are finished. The greatest hackers retired, and it's not that long time. I came here a year ago. In that time, ROM hacking was something done by "elite". Everything was precise, maps were almost flawless, and it didn't matter we had less knowledge about scrpts, everything was stunning. But that was a year ago... Now, there are only a few hacks of such quality.

What about today?
Today, the ROM hacking section of PokéCommunity is filled with newbies posting some simple map hacks, with grammar errors and spelling mistakes in the hack's text, almost no scripts and bad thread presentation. The good hacks are shaded by the bad hacks. Why? The newbies brought attention of other newbies, and got support. And many betas. That is the most important factor, when newbie chooses a hack to play. The beta might be buggy, full of errors (maps, scripting, etc.) but HEY, ITZ DA BETA AND AI CAN PLEY IT! This is the most honored thing among the newbies. And also, Shiny Gold's glory is so bright that they ignore all other hacks. I have nothing against Carlos, it's not his fault, But the newbies should think more.

My wish...
I wish all newbie ROM hackers think before they post such low-quality hacks. They should practice more, improve mapping and ask someone more experienced to rate, comment and try to learn from others' mistakes. Then, the elite era might come back.

Now, I am afraid to post my project, so I am delaying it because I think it wouldn't get much support. And I am also thinking about ending with ROM hacking. I'm disgusted, and so is one my friend (not naming for respecting privacy). I am sad to see the situation over here, and I hope that all of you, newbie hackers, will think more and get some experience. I consider people as dragonhacker (sorry to mention) as newbies, even if they hack for more than just a month. I consider anyone newbie if he/she wonpt get any experience from his/her hacks and/or fails.

I am sorry if I insulted someone, but this is my point of view. Please don't flame me for it. Feel free to discuss this here, with me, or with anyone other.

 

[zel 2.0]

Hmmm... Well, let's see what my point of view is...

In fact, I don't personally think we had better hacks in the past, it was quite the same actually, but it's just that people really didn't wanted to try hacking (and probably my hack's gotten more people interested into it, as Brown and Quartz were what got me interested when I started), I don't see having more hacker-wannabes around as a bad thing. Life's that way, you have to live with all kind of good and bad stuff, the good will manage to survive and the bad, if they cannot manage to improve, then, will not...

I think people shows support if they can see that you are really serious about your work, doesn't matter your skills, actually, but that's only my opinion.

It's true that I'd prefer if they'd wait to have a good ammount of stuff in their games by the time they post it too (that's something I did myself, by the way), because with just a few screenshots you cannot judge a game too well, unless you already know about the hacker's skills. That'd be something really important, specially if you attempt another GSC remake.

Well, that's all I can comment, even though I may have more stuff to add to it inside of me and I'm reserving my opinion. Depending on how this thread works I may say something more, or not.

 

[Martin Yiu]

Hmmm... Well, let's see what my point of view is...

In fact, I don't personally think we had better hacks in the past, it was quite the same actually, but it's just that people really didn't wanted to try hacking (and probably my hack's gotten more people interested into it, as Brown and Quartz were what got me interested when I started), I don't see having more hacker-wannabes around as a bad thing. Life's that way, you have to live with all kind of good and bad stuff, the good will manage to survive and the bad, if they cannot manage to improve, then, will not...

I think people shows support if they can see that you are really serious about your work, doesn't matter your skills, actually, but that's only my opinion.

It's true that I'd prefer if they'd wait to have a good ammount of stuff in their games by the time they post it too (that's something I did myself, by the way), because with just a few screenshots you cannot judge a game too well, unless you already know about the hacker's skills. That'd be something really important, specially if you attempt another GSC remake.

Well, that's all I can comment, even though I may have more stuff to add to it inside of me and I'm reserving my opinion. Depending on how this thread works I may say something more, or not.

Thank you for expressing your opinion, Carlos. Your words made me think if I said it right... I didn't mean that past hacks were better than present ones, but I meant that the hack makers were more serious, put more effort and their work was memorable. If you compare it to present hakcer-wannabes (using your word), you see a BIG difference. That low percentage of serious hackers is still decreasing, and due to this, less and less really good hacks or at least hacks worth a play appear. Maybe, if the projects of the hacker-wannabes were improved, then you can see the ideal world. But nothing is ideal. You are bright example, along with others, of a serious hacker. Maybe because you do everything slowly and think about each step - THE POINT - and newbies don't. They don't put almost any effort into the maps, and that's the most important thing - where would the player walk, exist? - which should improve. Marz started a mapping tutorial, but I don't think that many newbies take his advice. So, I hope they will start, at least after reading this thread, thinking about each step in the hack making.

 

[Deokishisu]

Martin Yiu, I agree with EVERYTHING in your first post. You've said what I didn't have the courage to say myself, and a lot nicer than I would've put it too. Newbie's seem to be attracted to each other until they make a support group and.. POP! A hack full of errors (especially grammar and spelling) comes out of the mix. This is just a general observation. Also, 3rd generation hacks seem to have COMPLETELY destroyed hacks of the older generations. If a hack comes out and it's not third gen, most newbies go, "I like it, but GBC graphics suck... So I won't play it. 1/10" Meanwhile, those are the real hackers because there aren't as many tools to work with and they have to do everything manually. I'm a 3rd gen man myself but these older ROM-based games need more credit than our 3rd gen hacks deserve, if it's good of course.

Martin Yiu, you've made a friend in me today!

 

[Blazichu]

Most of the RBY and GSC games are better than most RSE and FRLG games these days, if anything hex is becoming dead basically most people want to use pointless tools "look my tool can edit the grass colour :o". Being a GSC hacker I noticed many flaws in my hack even and I am changing that, some examples would be getting the Pokemon from the professor...how boring, but getting it from the wild from a ranger farm (inserted new scripts) is heaps better than the old way. Most people should either learn how to script or to use hex via pointers etc. Editing maps to look different also isn't difficult, AdvanceMap, GoldMap and PokeMap make it very easy. The hack that got me started was Pokemon Violet by Cartmic/Zure because it was very different. If anything people need to start thinking of their own ideas, take some time and you will think up of some great events to include in your hacks ;)

 

[Martin Yiu]

Yup. Look at Bronze/Prism or Brown. Those have features which even GBA games don't have. I don't have enough courage to hack GBC, but I try to do it nas best as possible on the platform I make the hack. And most of the newbies don't. Just BETAS, BETAS, BETAS! If your hack doesn't have any, they give it 0/10 and your hack is on the best way to be forgotten. Same for hacks in other languages. They won't play unless they understand. It's good to look at least at the game mechanics the hack maker has made and so on! But no, IMMA NEW SO I RUL!... Oh, this thread wasn't supposed to create the flame war, so we mighht stop be bad and start to be constructive. Maybe we shall make a decision to make ONE BIG TUTORIAL for them and then we make at least standard hack makers from all those newbies.

 

[Twinx]

Martin, you make a lot of sense to me...
After seeing so many hacks around the forum, I got the impression that hacking is easy (since so many people were doing it).
So I gave hacking a try myself, after changing pallets, tiles, overworld sprites, mapping the first town, all that was left on my goal list before starting a thread was to script the first town.
So being a newbie, I went to the tutorial section, and after struggling for long hours trying to figure out scripting, I came to realize that it's far too complicated for my taste, and even though I had spent countless hours changing tiles and mapping and
creating warps and stuff...
So I gave hacking a break and decided to focus on college for now.
And even though I discussed my hack with some people around PC, I never created a thread because I already knew it wasn't on top of priorities right now.

Now, looking back at all the hacks around the community, most of 'em are poorly mapped with dull plots. And the "hackers" are begging for scripters.
How do you consider yourself a hacker when you haven't mastered scripting yet?
As Zel says, Scripting comes before tiles and pallets and whatever.

What the community lacks, in my opinion, is better scripters. Therefore the need for better newbie tutorials. Their are many scattered answers for confusing issues spread around some threads, maybe someone should collect them?

I don't know if I'm making any sense.... anyway, this is my point of view :)

 

[destinedjagold]

It is sad to accept the fact of life.
I am a newbie myself(but I'm surprised I am not hurt. :) oh well...)

I just joined PC this year, so I have no knowledge about the hacks in the past few years... But as zel/Carlos stated, it really depends on the hacker of how determined they are.

But all newbies are influenced to post their hacks too early just to be famed and so they could be proud.., or maybe just to join the competition...

I suggest, to all who plan to post their hacks here in PC, that they should have done the basic plot of thier plan hack(but make sure it should be original or contains originality), and scripting. Those two are the important things a hack should have. Others like mapping and etc. are the flavorings to make the hack more delici.., I mean more attractive to look at, but useless if there's no plot and new scripts... It's like in English class.., the independent (plot and scripts) and the dependent(mapping, tile editing, OW, etc...) clauses...

We share the same knowledge of scripting.., so we should try and acquire those knowledge to have a hack that's destined to be completed.

Just like zel, I have a lot of things in my mind that I will write down later.., depending on the nexts few/more posts...

Good day and please forgive us if we have offended anyone who views this thread.

I greet you all a good day.

 

[Smarties-chan]

I fully agree. However, I wouldn't say most hacks a couple of years back were good either. They were mostly sloppily mapped Ruby/Sapphire hacks with changed starters and maps. Few even had edited trainer battles. There were a couple of dedicated hackers, that I agree with, but few hacks showed that they would have had any real effort put into them. Unfortunately, I've started a couple of hacks like that as well, but luckily I've only posted one of them and that was back when I was a complete n00b. After that, I just kept hacking for myself, never posting anything because unlike most hackers, I actually know how to criticize my own work. (and other people's works as well)

It doesn't matter how bad a hack is, there will always be a hoard of n00bs saying it's awesome and calling the critics mean. A simple palette hack will have most people gawking these days and if you can make a simple givepokémon script, they'll think of you as a god. I've seen too many topics like this.

And I agree on the Shiny Gold part as well, it is awesome and it deserves to be praised, but the way most people act about it is just ridiculous. Shiny Gold is freakin' amazing, but there are perhaps not better, but at least as good hacks as Shiny Gold out there, why don't they get the praise they deserve? I'm not saying any names, but a couple of bad hacks get ridiculous amounts of "zomg this are gude when u realize betazs!!???" while many good ones are simply ignored. I find this very alarming, as it discourages those whose hacks actually have potential.

 

[zel 2.0]

Oh, time to comment on the 2nd vs 3rd Generation battle? Hmmm... Well, I cannot say much about it (and probably all of the hackers' opinions will be biased, since each of us has picked one generation and will want to defend it no matter what), but, I'll try to be in the place of the non-hackers (because I think any of the hackers around respect both generations' hacks), I think they don't go thinking "Oh, this is an old gen hack, so I won't play it", they'll probably (and unconsciously) are saying "Oh, this is an old gen game, so I won't play it", they are the kind of people who just play the latest console's games and just forget about the older consoles. I don't blame them, technology generate such kind of opinions, and, think about it: "If you had an Atari game, and a PS3 (or whatever is trendy now), would you pick the Atari?"

I'm more interested in a game that presents something that can entertain me, doesn't matter how old it is. Adding graphics is an extra help, if you cannot make your game more interesting. There's a good thing about it, the existing GSC hacks are really interesting, well, in my opinion :P

Once again, life's rules... It's like in a (flock?) of lions, the younger becomes the leader if he manages to defeat the old lion. Something like that.
And that's as far as I will go about it.

 

[Teh Baro]

Everybody wants to be an internet idol.

This pretty much summarizes the problem with rom hacking.


PS: Here's a nice quote I found quoted on a friend's site.

Now as I was saying, this hack is terrible. Like, really bad. This could be explained by this being the creator's very first hack, and I agree, sort of. My first hack was terrible too, except you could see in it and I never released it
— The Trasher on a super mario hack named Super DARRK World

 

[Martin Yiu]

Heh, that's right. When I come back to my statement about the old hacks, I meant serious hacks, because when I started hacking, it was like 3 to 8, 3 being the "n00by" hacks and 8 the serious ones. Now it's like 18 to 9 when 18 being "n00byy" and 9 the serious ones. Note: This is only for demonstration of average number. Not to be taken as correct nor accurate. So, maybe this is how it looks now. The "n00by" hacks were always present, but not in that high number as currently.

 

[HackMew]

Yeah, Martin Yiu! You're right! I absolutely agree on what you said. Let me throw in my two cents now ;)

Old Style Hacking
Whatever you could think about GB/GBC hacks they're always the beginning of Pokémon ROM hacking.
I do respect them since a good hack is always a good hack, no matter which is the ROM base.
And I think the other hackers should do the same.

Screenshoots
That's true. Screenshoots are sure important. But how much?
Probably you will never be able to judge a hack just by looking them, except under particular circumstances.
The only way is to actually play the hack. No way out.
Screenshoots, anyway, could be even more important than the beta release itself to encourage people playing the hack.

Beta Releasing
Some hackers, when they finally decide to make their hacks know, aren't ready to a beta yet.
There's nothing wrong with it: each hacker has his/her own skills, free time and so on.
Without betas, though, it's most likely people won't care a lot those hacks.
Even worser, they could bug the hacker to release something as quickly as possible.
Time passes and the hack, along with the hacker who is making it, could be totally forgotten in the meanwhile.

Other Languages
I am kinda disappointed about this problem. Most of the people don't even try a hack if it's not in English.
This behaviour isn't good for the ROM hacker who made the hack since it's a total blindness to his/her efforts.
"It's not in English therefore I won't play it"-like sentences are the proof of what I just said.
Why not give the hack a try? Is that prejudice or simply laziness?

Newbies
That's OK, everyone's a newbie at some point. And I have nothing against them.
But you should agree with me there are different ways of being a newbie.
One of the things I dislike most about them is the absence of a trial/error approach, most of the times.
Tutorials are really, really useful but they don't explain everything, obviously.
Asking someone for help is a good practice if you do that intelligently.
I mean, you can't always ask mainly for two reasons:
1. You won't be sure to get an appropriate answer or an answer at all.
2. You won't learn a lot by doing that.
Trying to be as autodidact as possible should be newbies' goal.
So, when they have really no clue what to do they could ask someone more experienced, of course.

Bad Quality Hacks
Nowadays we are surrounded by low-quality hacks.
I think newbies, once they learn few basic things, they immediately get excited and they look forward to post their hacks.
They focus basically on graphics without caring a lot about the core of ROM hacking: scripting.
Let's face the truth: without scripting, most of the hacks are just a mix of glitched maps, soe edited texts. Eventually some tiles and/or sprites.
Learning how to script is a must, whether you like it or not.

Good Quality Hacks
Good quality is... good! XD
All newbies feel attracted by them but depending on people's choices, some promising hacks could be shaded by other well-known ones.
Some ROM hackers could be discouraged at this point and decide to take a break or maybe to give up.
Everyone is worth a chance in the ROM hacking world. :)

Hackers
In my opinion, real hackers are those people who have at least a basic knowledge about everything and who are specialized in some skills.
Some of them could decide to work alone (even if working totally alone is an utopia), others might prefer to found a hacking team.
They aren't as impatient as newbies. They think twice before doing something and how. The fully undestand what's the most important thing and the least important one.
They have a lot of experience behind them and that's their power.

Hacking Tools
Programs are crucial. Probably you didn't think about that but what would happen if you had to edit maps manually by using a hex editor?
The answer is pretty simple: you would get crazy mid-way. That's why having the support of a programming language is useful for a hacker.
If you have a particular need you can create a specially designed tool that suits your desires. Or at least to understand someone else's source code.
As for myself I do my best to release and updated the most useful programs in order to save as much time as possible.
ROM hacking is a time consuming activity, there's no need to waste time unnecessarily.
Programmers are often left in the shadows, though. What catch the audience are the hacks, not the tools.
That's a pity since hacks are made using tools, of course. Perhaps we can't do nothing but I'm still optimist.

 

[Deokishisu]

Other Languages
I am kinda disappointed about this problem. Most of the people don't even try a hack if it's not in English.
This behaviour isn't good for the ROM hacker who made the hack since it's a total blindness to his/her efforts.
"It's not in English therefore I won't play it"-like sentences are the proof of what I just said.
Why not give the hack a try? Is that prejudice or simply laziness?

I agree with what you said -HackMew-, but I do have something to say about this quote. The offcial language of this forum is English right? Alot of the newbies speak only English. See the connection? It's not prejudice that they won't try the hack, it's not laziness either. Even I want to simply understand what's being said and what's going on. If the hack's of a different language it's difficult to do that. I'll try Spanish hacks because I can speak enough to know what's going on, same with French. But alot of people don't care to learn another language so they're turned off to the idea of playing a game that's in another language. To me, playing something in a language I've never heard spoken and don't know the meaning of one word in that language is a waste of my time. I'd miss whatever jokes the hacker put in, and I wouldn't be able to appreciate the time s/he took for the text. I appreciate the hacker for trying to make a successful hack, but if you want to make your hack big on a forum, do it on a forum that shares the same language as your hack first.

 

[HackMew]

Well, Deokishisu, that question was meant to be ironic.
I perfectly know that English language is needed (especially here on PC) but I'm convinced everyone should try hacks based on foreign languages anyway. I don't think it's really a waste of time, indeed.
Except for the main plot and therefore the texts mostly, the rest of the game has just an "universal language" anybody can understand. Maps, tiles, overworld and scripts are just a few examples.
I hope I've clarified what I meant :)

 

[zel 2.0]

Well, I prefer playing games in a language I can fully understand. But I have a valid reason: If I'm gonna play something, then I must fully understand what's going on. Because if I don't know what's going on, then I may start getting confused, and getting confused takes the enjoyment of any game (and as I said before, I want to enjoy the game fully)
Probably people won't agree with me on this, but, well, that's what I think about it.

(By the way, that doesn't mean that I'm 100% reluctant to play a game in another language... But the game must REALLY be awesome and interesting in its "looks" in that case to motivate me to play it even in a foreign language. I still remember playing all the Captain Tsubasa and DBZ games, and a game called Bahamut Lagoon, even though all of them were in Japanese and I didn't understand a thing... ;))

 

[Martin Yiu]

Andrea, your opinion impressed me. And same for all of you. I didn't expect this lively discussion. Well, my opinion is that everyone should get a chance to try but when the newbies miss out, it's very hard to get back respect for them, mainly because their sometimes rude behaviour. Therefore they should be more careful of what they are doing. I am not speaking of newbies generally, but about the type of newbies which are usually called "n00bs". They can become normal members which show respect to others, but they should think before they speak/post and they should watch others at first.

 

[spenceroone3]

Yeah, well... I"m a newbie to hacking, I started PinkMew after 2 months of training, and I think I'm going to go back to training for a while...

Also, some hackers here are in Dutch and Spanish, so it may be difficult to understand for English people. Though I did notice people of non-English origin do seem to make better looking hacks and you have no idea what the hell they're saying ingame.

Shiny Gold attracts lots of newbies;) And Shiny Gold is an example of a good hack. One of the keys is scripting, I know it is hard. When you are firstly a n00b, you just want to edit the text, cos you're probably too lazy... But eventually you get better. I wanted to learn how to script, and that is how I learnt. ;)

 

[destinedjagold]

I confess that the first time I try to hack, the only thing was on my mind was to be 'the greatest hacker' there is.., but as time flies, I kinda forgot that goal (but now I remembered, but.., nah...) and set my site to have fun while hacking. Fun I mean, I will have fun with headaches, problems, tiredness, parents scolding me... Eheheh.., but yeah, it's all true, but it's very satisfying though, once you've solve your problems by yourself or if someone helped ya out. ^^

Now my goal is just to make a hack! And that's it. Just wasting my time to hack. But hey, hacking makes me happy. It's kinda my life now.

I confess that I can only post positive posts to those hacks mentioned.., but you may wonder why.., well, I have two reasons... 1st is to boost the hacker's spirit to go on and continue the work for him/her to become great! 2nd.., uh.., I rather keep it to myself, thank you very much! ;)

But I just can't understand why there are hacks that has a great goal, but couldn't pull it through. They should have struggled to learn like I did.

I have to admit, my hack is not that good or great or special or whatever that describes it positively... But I strive to learn (especially scripting, which was my nightmare when I first started hacking. Eheheh... Now, my nightmare is hex! But I'll try and understand hex maybe next week for I have no classes for whole 2 weeks! WHEEEEEEEEE!!!) from the basic.

And yeah, pkmncommunity is a great site for us all. I remembered when it was down for 5 days, my life was not the same... It was like, my life was incomplete.

Oh well... I'm out of words. Let me end my post.

Each one of us has a special talent in hacking. He is a good scripter, while he's a great spriter, and she's an awesome mapper, and they're great hex editors!

This means that we all are different from eash other, and so need one another to help, correct, team up, and etc.

And.., I'm out of words. ~THE END~

 

[deepbluemew]

Good morning all,

I was a romhacker many many years ago, since October 21st 2000.

There were some good things, some bad things over the years.

Romhacking Pokemon Red was the fun times back in the days, still is if there is a nice number of interest. My first romhack - Pokemon Legends was a mere hack with mostly map changes, gfx changes and the list goes on - they were popular back in the days, hardly anyone know how to script events.

Most of the fun things that many considered back in the early day was translation of Pokemon Green and Pokemon Blue and Pokemon TCG2...however translation is not big these days now - because we know most of the games we wanted have a high chance of being translated by the offical companies of the games. Thats why hardly anyone can pay much attention to romhacks plus not many newbies deals with romhacking at that time, they were mostly mature and kept dumb questions to a mininal.

Another big thing, that when Gold and Silver comes around, it was similar to what most of the hackers did in Pokemon red until Mikasa and a wide number of German hackers introduced many useful things allows us to do more things. Before then, we only used a Hex editor, TileLayerPro, and a Map editor - usually created by PhilipRueben or Jigglypuff. Most of the hex editing back in the days was mainly wild pokemon, text editing and some not so complex stuff. Some people chose to mess around with programs than on hacks to give other hackers useful stuff...That person, was a complete idiot and lacks common sense...Ahhh...the days.

Scripting was not really popular until 2004 when someone finallly worked out how it work in the Advanced generation and the like - which caused alot of the old hacks of its kinds became crappy hacks and most of the time these days people wanted hacks with new scripts and mostly in 3rd generation rather than 1st and 2nd generation of games.

As for me, I only liked to romhack the first two generation, they were fun back in the days...