Dealing with trolls

[Alfieri]

It's about time. Now trolls will realize that they aren't getting any attention and can either just leave the forum or be banned.

 

[Aven]

Yay! Retaliate against those trolls! :D

 

[Hikamaru]

Ever since the latest incident I had, it's great to hear you're cracking down on them much better now. If I ever spot any suspicious trolls I'll always report them first thing!

 

[Nakala Pri]

Oh gods no why

I'll be um... sure to keep an eye out... ehehehe... eh...hehehehe... HEHEHHEHEHEHE... *cackles and wiggles fingers*

But seriously, I'll use my Patrat vision to see through the slippery owls which call themselves Trolls. >:)

 

[Pave Low]

I've seen many a troll being fed in my day, so I'm glad this is being implemented. The less they are fed, the less they will excrete, I guess...

 

[Aquacorde]

So is trolling itself still going to be handled on a case-by-case basis, with more staff follow-up with members involved? It's been my experience that anything but outright trolling is mostly dismissed, and even outright trolling not always given as much consideration as would be appreciated.

edit: please see Nick's post for a better view of where I'm coming from on this because he's much better at expressing than I am

 

[Dedenne1]

Good i cant stand trolls! Really i would never retaliate against any of them since they really arent worth it to me and id just report them anyways. I do feel some people need to be checked though some people go to far. :/

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Unless you count the loud members at the Pokémon Anime section or, I don't think I've ever encountered any actual trolling in the sections I go to. The only scenario close to trolling was a derailing argument at the Smash Bros. thread that I tried to get it back on-topic once.

 

[Unbalanced]

You cant really beat a troll
Its just not possible

 

[Nick]

Um...

So if I'm reading correctly, this doesn't really affect the troll so much as the member who gets fed up by them. The overwhelming majority of the members who do get fed up with them are the users who seem to genuinely care about the forums from what I've seen or just genuinely have a pretty low tolerance from dealing with them in general, which is usually understanding.

I'm not saying that they should be responding in the way that they - and I, in occasions in the past - have, but Jesus Christ, how about actually removing the trolls from the site rather than threatening people who get their panties in a bunch and respond to trolls exactly how they want them to in the first place? They're obviously always up to no good and end up being banned at the end of the day anyway. If you think someone is here to troll, and there is evidence that they're trolling, take it upon yourself and make an executive judgment and deal with the problem by removing them from creating any more problems. They're the ones who create the disharmony among the community.

Everything here always has to be done to a system. Trolls in the past have trolled for years before they got banned, because they always knew how to dodge the rules just enough for their efforts to be moot. What gets me angry about this is, rather than changing the method of dealing with the trolls, you guys are changing the method of dealing with people who respond to them.

Maybe you should rebrand this announcement "Dealing with people who take it upon themselves to deal with trolls."

 

[│Medic│]

The anonymity that the internet provides and the absence of true reputation are what allow for trolls to exist. You cannot squash a troll, even with a ban. It's just not possible.

I may be wrong here, but it seems that the PC staff understands this, and while they will continue to do what they can to cut off any trollish activity, their goal here is mainly to minimize collateral damage to the forums as a whole.

Trolls will always exist. But the less people engage them, the smaller their ripples become, and ultimately, the more civil PC remains.

 

[Her]

i'm w/ nick on this
punishing members for an inevitable reaction to trolls doesn't solve anything

baiting trolls in the sense of consciously egging them on is one thing but punishing someone for any other reaction is overzealous and doesn't make sense
remove the troll and leave a message on the affected person's profile as needed

 

[Nick]

The more I think about this, the more upset I get. I am genuinely angry, and I haven't had this sort of reaction to anything PC has done, ever.

This is pretty much victim blaming. Obviously not as direct or as serious, but that's what it is. A troll's main purpose in existence is to get a rise out of people. That's what they're here to do and what they enjoy doing. They want people to respond to them in any way they can, and they want them upset and bothered and they want them to meet them on their level. They do this in clever ways that don't always immediately come across to others as obvious trolling. The people who respond to them are the victims of trolling.

This just translate to punishing the people who reply to trolls by giving them what they want. It's as if there is no consideration for the fact that an effective troll will be able to jolt any emotion they please out of someone who takes something seriously enough, and we're talking about a community when it's been stated time and time again by multiple people (many of which were included in this discussion to make this change) that its a safe haven for people who come here. Hell, some members get upset and start arguments when there is a valid criticism towards the staff in the staff feedback thread in an effort to defend a staff member.

When their safe haven is threatened, they're going to respond. Not in an effort to create disharmony on the forums, but in an effort to protect it. But we're going to punish them from doing so, and more than likely let the trolls off with an equal or lesser infraction based on technicalities because they weren't technically disrespecting anyone. They were just being assholes.

Pluck the assholes out of the community rather than dealing with people who get upset by their actions and let their humanity show by exercising some lack of good judgement and some anger, regardless of how they respond.

 

[El Héroe Oscuro]

The point of the rule is to prevent people from thrashing out on trolls. Yes, we are looking to keep it a system but the system works; don't get involved in the troll's actions, report what he or she is doing, and move on. You're making it sound like we aren't tackling the issue of the troll itself - that is not the case. We still react accordingly to a troll's actions and follow the systems in place on PC, which can result in either a warning, infraction, or ban. The point of this announcement is to notify users that they shouldn't be attackingly retaliating to a troll as even though it is a troll, disrespect is disrespect and will be treated accordingly.

There are already standards in place that allow us to confront trolling. This new announcement/rule is in place due to the increase in awareness of people dropping nasty VMs and aggressively responding to trolls, and thus needed to be brought to everyone's attention as to what needs to be done.

 

[Starry Windy]

Personally, I agree with what Nick said.

Considering that I've been having some problems with trolls as I was having experienced it back then, I felt this rule makes it so that the victim of the troll must keep silent when somebody bothers them, and with due respect, it might cause more harm to the victim themselves rather than the trolls are, because this rule might make the trolls do what they wanted without worry of being infracted at all, and causing the victims to flee out of despair, and I'm not thrilled at this.

So, I think it's best to do some equal punishments to the trolls as well, but then, it's my opinion, I hope you guys understand.

 

[Nick]

The point of the rule is to prevent people from thrashing out on trolls. Yes, we are looking to keep it a system but the system works; don't get involved in the troll's actions, report what he or she is doing, and move on. You're making it sound like we aren't tackling the issue of the troll itself - that is not the case. We still react accordingly to a troll's actions and follow the systems in place on PC, which can result in either a warning, infraction, or ban. The point of this announcement is to notify users that they shouldn't be attackingly retaliating to a troll as even though it is a troll, disrespect is disrespect and will be treated accordingly.

There are already standards in place that allow us to confront trolling. This new announcement/rule is in place due to the increase in awareness of people dropping nasty VMs and aggressively responding to trolls, and thus needed to be brought to everyone's attention as to what needs to be done.

People wouldn't thrash out against trolls in anger if the trolls were dealt with right then and there. Nip the problem in the bud. We're not talking about a member whose upset about an infraction they got and retaliating. We're talking about a troll.

You aren't dealing with the troll. The staff are continuing to do the same thing that they've always done, and that's follow the books. You're continuing to treat them like they are a wanted member of the community when they are not.

Trolls know how to work the system. The system doesn't work for trolls because there are work arounds. Instead of being outright rude, they'll make a snide comment directed to a specific user. The user will report that post, and nothing will be done about it because it isn't obvious to many other people. They'll respond with mocking comments about someone, but in a friendly and harmless way that isn't disrespectful, despite being aggravating. They won't get infracted for these posts because they aren't breaking a rule, and then the member who they were harassing will be upset.

I have been on the other side. I have been in HQ before fighting to get a specific user banned because they were trolling, but we had to do things "by the book." Even though we were the people who wrote the book to begin with. Now the people who wrote the book are finally making an edit, but rather than dealing with the trolls directly, they're practically protecting and encouraging them.

With this announcement, trolls now know that the people who get upset by their actions and take matters and their emotions to their profile will be disciplined. They're going to get infracted rather than the troll, who probably couldn't give less of a shit if they were banned in the first place because this is all just another forum and some casual fun for them.



I am done replying to this thread now.

 

[El Héroe Oscuro]

Personally, I agree with what Nick said.

Considering that I've been having some problems with trolls as I was having experienced it back then, I felt this rule makes it so that the victim of the troll must keep silent when somebody bothers them, and with due respect, it might cause more harm to the victim themselves rather than the trolls are, because this rule might make the trolls do what they wanted without worry of being infracted at all, and I'm not thrilled at this.

So, I think it's best to do some equal punishments to the trolls as well, but then, it's my opinion, I hope you guys understand.

Again, similar to Nick, your making it sound like the troll isn't getting punished. The troll is indeed getting the full blunt of what is to come to them, so I don't understand why people think they are getting a get out of jail free card. The victim is not staying silent in these situations, but rather is channeling that energy towards reporting it so we as a staff can act quicker on the situation. We're asking users not to feed the trolls because ultimately, that will cause the victim to feel more victimized and allow the troll more fuel under their fire for their attack. Turn the other cheek, ignore the troll, report the incident, and allow the right punishment be dealt to these people.

 

[Nolafus]

Um...

So if I'm reading correctly, this doesn't really affect the troll so much as the member who gets fed up by them. The overwhelming majority of the members who do get fed up with them are the users who seem to genuinely care about the forums from what I've seen or just genuinely have a pretty low tolerance from dealing with them in general, which is usually understanding.

I'm not saying that they should be responding in the way that they - and I, in occasions in the past - have, but Jesus Christ, how about actually removing the trolls from the site rather than threatening people who get their panties in a bunch and respond to trolls exactly how they want them to in the first place? They're obviously always up to no good and end up being banned at the end of the day anyway. If you think someone is here to troll, and there is evidence that they're trolling, take it upon yourself and make an executive judgment and deal with the problem by removing them from creating any more problems. They're the ones who create the disharmony among the community.

Everything here always has to be done to a system. Trolls in the past have trolled for years before they got banned, because they always knew how to dodge the rules just enough for their efforts to be moot. What gets me angry about this is, rather than changing the method of dealing with the trolls, you guys are changing the method of dealing with people who respond to them.

Maybe you should rebrand this announcement "Dealing with people who take it upon themselves to deal with trolls."

You're correct with your statement about this being about the people who responded to trolls, but I have a couple qualms with your latter points.

The problem with people reacting was that it was adding fuel to the fire the trolls were trying to create. It edged them on, which caused them to go further. A situation which could have been handled quickly and quietly turned into something that was across the entire forum. All we're simply trying to do here is spread word that retaliating to these trolls is something that we won't take as acceptable behavior anymore. The less people that are involved with these things, the better, and I think this is a step in the right direction. People need to be aware that this is a new thing, so an announcement was made to get the word out.

Regarding how we handle the trolls, and the slow respond time you say we have, that's not really something I can answer. As you probably know, only h-staff deals with permanently banning people. I wish I could provide some light on this, but I really don't know how these things are handled besides it's taken case by case.

Oh, and for the record...

baiting trolls in the sense of consciously egging them on is one thing but punishing someone for any other reaction is overzealous and doesn't make sense

This is what we're going for. There's a clear difference between edging the troll on, and reacting on emotion. Besides, the only way people would get punished by this rule is if the person is obviously provoking the troll past all sense of reason, or if the person absolutely refused to step back and let staff take care of it. What's most likely going to happen if a troll strikes a sour chord and it irritates you to a point of action, is that you're going to get a message from a staff member to step back and let them deal with it, and that the staff is doing something. We're not going to start punishing victims, because that's just not right. It's about preventing members from antagonizing trolls further through intentional actions. No one is perfect, and we're not expecting people to just turn the other cheek every single time. People need a little nudge to remind them that staff is doing something sometimes, and that's what we're doing.

And stop replying to this thread so fast, I can't keep up, haha.

 

[Aquacorde]

I agree that purposely egging on trolls is a punishable action. But the way this ruling is phrased, it seems as if members are going to be punished for valid reactions to trolls. People get upset. A lot of people are not very good at controlling validated anger, and even when they know they are being egged on can't get themselves out of the situation very well. I know, because I am one of them. A lot of people know that about me and have used it to their advantage and will again. However, the many times I have gone to staff about situations where I am being trolled, nothing has been done besides like, maaaaaybe a verbal warning? Also I've been punished? Sure some of what I retaliated with was punishable, whatever, I accept that. I'm in the wrong for the way I handled the people. But am I in the wrong for being involved in the situation at all? For trying to defend myself, my friends, and my community when my plea for staff interference has gone ignored?

I should not be told to "report and let staff handle it" when staff does nothing to stop these things because the offenders aren't specifically breaking rules. I will not stay silent when I or my friends are being attacked. And situations escalate quickly. Before I see any rules against people retaliating to trolls, I'd like to see more disciplinary actions against trolls themselves. Before I trust staff to make the right call on a valuable member of the community, I'd like to see them make the right call on those not wanted.

I know it's hard to make a call like that. I've been on the other side as well- are they trolling? Are they still within the rules? Should I give them the benefit of the doubt? I've made the call to be lenient on people and that just got me... another month until they ultimately did something to make me infract them a few more times and ban them. Clearly they were causing problems; why did I hesitate to resolve it? Because I want to believe in people. I really, really, want to believe in people. But obviously there are those that come in here just to kick up shitstorms. And y'all need to get on that and take care of them. Better sooner than later. And preferably talk down and work with those who get easily upset at trolls. That's like, basic working-with-people. I know I would have appreciated it. And I'm sure there are a bunch of younger, less jaded, more sensitive people who would appreciate being talked to and reasoned with rather than outright punished.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

People wouldn't thrash out against trolls in anger if the trolls were dealt with right then and there. Nip the problem in the bud. We're not talking about a member whose upset about an infraction they got and retaliating. We're talking about a troll.

You aren't dealing with the troll. The staff are continuing to do the same thing that they've always done, and that's follow the books. You're continuing to treat them like they are a wanted member of the community when they are not.

Trolls know how to work the system. The system doesn't work for trolls because there are work arounds. Instead of being outright rude, they'll make a snide comment directed to a specific user. The user will report that post, and nothing will be done about it because it isn't obvious to many other people. They'll respond with mocking comments about someone, but in a friendly and harmless way that isn't disrespectful, despite being aggravating. They won't get infracted for these posts because they aren't breaking a rule, and then the member who they were harassing will be upset.

I have been on the other side. I have been in HQ before fighting to get a specific user banned because they were trolling, but we had to do things "by the book." Even though we were the people who wrote the book to begin with. Now the people who wrote the book are finally making an edit, but rather than dealing with the trolls directly, they're practically protecting and encouraging them.

With this announcement, trolls now know that the people who get upset by their actions and take matters and their emotions to their profile will be disciplined. They're going to get infracted rather than the troll, who probably couldn't give less of a shit if they were banned in the first place because this is all just another forum and some casual fun for them.



I am done replying to this thread now.

Hahahahahahahahaha

If I had any self confidence about PC whatsoever I would have said something similar. I'm going to delete my above post.