[Other Tutorial] Development Tool Discussion

[KingCharizard]

Ok here is a topic I think some of you can tackle, Im not sure how many people in the community actually know C++ and plan to create games professionally, but those that do I like to get your thoughts on the best tools/engines out today and help point others in the right direction cause not everyone know where to start when they plan to develop a game.

Ok in my opinion these are the pros and cons of the dev tools i know and/or use.

XNA http://creators.xna.com/en-US/ - Xna seems to be the best console solution for anyone who doesnt have much money.
UDK(Unreal Dev Kit) www.udk.com - its free, and this is good to learn with and maybe produce a non commercial game to booast your portfolio. Cons, Due to their licensing If you make a commercial game and it makes over 5k Your paying epic games a hefty price.
TORQUE http://www.torquepowered.com/ - This is by far my favorite engine to date, its a complete game engine and has a resonable price also you get the source so you can modify the engine to fit your needs. Its cons, well, docmentation is shoddy.
Unity3D http://unity3d.com/ - another fav of mine, its a well balanced engine with reasonable pricing and easy to learn. Cons, it doesnt have a huge community and docmentation is shoddy.
C4Engine http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php - Well they say with this engine you can develop a game for the ps3, with that said this is also a good engine with reasonable prices.
SDK(Sony Dev Kit) No link available - well this isnt for an indie developer unless you have some cash to spend, but From what I understand its not all that great either programming for the ps3 is hard and complicated, but its your only option for a ps3 title.

I know i missed some and I'd like people to post the things i've missed or things they like to add also feel free to comment on what i've already added.. Also I didnt mention any open source tools because in my opinion they arent complete tools.

anything that does not have cons its because I dont know them, cause I do not use the tools.

 

[Worldslayer608]

*sigh* This should probably be in the Resource section. You are linking to tools, and you are also discussing tools. Really...​

 

[KingCharizard]

*sigh* This should probably be in the Resource section. You are linking to tools, and you are also discussing tools. Really...​

I thought about that but I want it to be a discussion, not a resource topic, and please quit mini modding its annoying if you dont have anything revelant to say then please dont post, and if you are a mod then please ask the topic creator before moving the thread. Talk about the tools i've listed and comment on what you think about them or add your own... I mean how hard is it to contribute to a topic? "really..." I posted the links so people understand the tools i'm talking about. To who ever moved this, next time ask. Besides the resource sub forum should be for resources only not discussions... Where I orginally posted this was quite fine as it was posted in the game dev section... I'll proabaly get a warning or whatever for saying this but its annoying how people report topics because its in the wrong section or staff will move a topic because they think its in the wrong section. This community can be quite annoying sometimes, because people assume too much here. I mean people chill out relax and dont take things so seriously all the time... Yea at times i've gotten serious but i was stressed out because of my employer hounding me to meet a deadline whats your excuse.

 

[Avatar]

Unity3D http://unity3d.com/ - another fav of mine, its a well balanced engine with reasonable pricing and easy to learn. Cons, it doesnt have a huge community and docmentation is shoddy.

It's not actually referred to as Unity3D, it's simply Unity.
While the documentation might not be top notch that doesn't stop developers from developing a wide range of games in it. A few examples are Zero Point Software's (after a switch from Unreal Engine 3 to Unity) trilogy Interstellar Marines, Hayden Scott-Baron's Tumbledrop and Mondo Robot's Tiki Magic Mini Golf.

 

[KingCharizard]

It's not actually referred to as Unity3D, it's simply Unity.
While the documentation might not be top notch that doesn't stop developers from developing a wide range of games in it. An example is Zero Point Software's (after a switch from Unreal Engine 3 to Unity) trilogy Interstellar Marines.

your correct it is unity, I apolgize its late and i am tired just finishing a project before i sleep and i need a break so i decided to post a thread. I didnt intend to imply unity wasn't great Infact I like it alot, as I said its one of my favs. I plan on using it if I get an idea that would fit the engine...

 

[MarkLegault]

Also I didnt mention any open source tools because in my opinion they arent complete tools.

Well thats your opinion. I think a real drawback is for example, if you have a major deadline and found a bug in the library itself... No one is responsible to fix it for you.
I don't think there are features missing in Irrlicht (tried), Ogre (heard), or Panda (tried) that are required to make a game like Pokemon (2d or 3d). Also, there are many 'advanced' features both in open source and commercial engines that you will probably never use. Yet people consider those when choosing an engine.
And most games here are 2d anyway.
And this was just my opinion.


For the topic itself, I think it should be merged with davidthefat's topic. Sorry, but they are too similar. The other is called 'C/C++ resources' but it has more than that. And has UDK listed as well, for example. I think the topics should be merged into 'game programming resources'. What do you think? Also thats not a big deal, but you don't really need to write topic title in capitals.

 

[KingCharizard]

Well thats your opinion. I think a real drawback is for example, if you have a major deadline and found a bug in the library itself... No one is responsible to fix it for you.
I don't think there are features missing in Irrlicht (tried), Ogre (heard), or Panda (tried) that are required to make a game like Pokemon (2d or 3d). Also, there are many 'advanced' features both in open source and commercial engines that you will probably never use. Yet people consider those when choosing an engine.
And most games here are 2d anyway.
And this was just my opinion.


For the topic itself, I think it should be merged with davidthefat's topic. Sorry, but they are too similar. The other is called 'C/C++ resources' but it has more than that. And has UDK listed as well, for example. I think the topics should be merged into 'game programming resources'. What do you think? Also thats not a big deal, but you don't really need to write topic title in capitals.

I agree when you dont have the source code bugs can be a problem but torque comes with source code... thats why its my favorite and this is a discussion not a resource topic thats why I didnt like that it was moved. Yeah you can get the engines by following the links but my intentions were different... And I dunno y I posted the topic in all caps... lol hand;t realized it till you just said something...

 

[MarkLegault]

I agree when you dont have the source code bugs can be a problem but torque comes with source code...

You misunderstood. I ment if you use an open source library and find a bug in the library itself, you can't 'demand' the devs to fix that, since you don't pay them.

this is a discussion not a resource topic thats why I didnt like that it was moved.

But it sure looks like a 'resource topic' and thats why it was moved. And I think there isn't a problem to discuss about engines in a 'resource topic' as well. Now there are 2 similar topics. So thats why I suggest you to contact davidthefat to add your engines to his list and contact a mod to remove your topic and rename the other one to 'Game programming resources' or something, since it really isnt just C++.

Just to keep things clean.

 

[KingCharizard]

You misunderstood. I ment if you use an open source library and find a bug in the library itself, you can't 'demand' the devs to fix that, since you don't pay them.

No you cant demand they fix it and you shouldn't be demanding anything and if your paying for a commercial engine your paying for a bug free product thats why the offer free update downloads. With open source you have to find the bug and fix it yourself which can sometimes be quicker but a hassle.

But it sure looks like a 'resource topic' and thats why it was moved. And I think there isnt a problem to discuss about engines in a 'resource topic' as well. Now there are 2 similar topics. So thats why I suggest you to contact davidthefat to add your engines to his list and contact a mod to remove your topic and rename the other one to 'Game programming resources' or something, since it really isnt just C++.

Just to keep things clean.

Jesus I add links and now the whole worlds going crazy... Just let it go... Quit mini modding, too many people here do it and its annoying. I dont tell you what to do with your topics so dont tell me what to do with mine. His topic points to tutorials and links to learn c/C++ and what not. Mine Points too tools so you can create a game, so his topic contains the UDK big deal its a tool which is what my topic is all about. Your really quite annoying, post something relevant or post nothing its that simple.

 

[MarkLegault]

No you cant demand they fix it and you shouldn't be demanding anything and if your paying for a commercial engine your paying for a bug free product thats why the offer free update downloads. With open source you have to find the bug and fix it yourself which can sometimes be quicker but a hassle.

I don't understand what is the difference of our views. I basically ment the same thing :(
. Are you reading the posts carefully?

Jesus I add links and now the whole worlds going crazy... Just let it go... Quit mini modding, too many people here do it and its annoying.

Well that wasn't very nice.

I dont tell you what to do with your topics so dont tell me what to do with mine.

Like I said, "I suggest". Quite a difference. Just calm down.

His topic points to tutorials and links to learn c/C++ and what not. Mine Points too tools so you can create a game, so his topic contains the UDK big deal its a tool which is what my topic is all about.

And his topic also has links to tools as well. So they are similar. But again, I was just suggesting.

Your really quite annoying, post something relevant or post nothing its that simple.

I just wanted to help. Calling someone mini mod, annoying and the whole world 'going crazy' isnt a good idea. I suggest you to calm down.

 

[KingCharizard]

I don't understand what is the difference of our views. I basically ment the same thing :(
. Are you reading the posts carefully?

Yes I am, to "Suggest" im not is rude, I never said they were different.

Well that wasn't very nice.

Well your suggestions are annoying

Like I said, "I suggest". Quite a difference. Just calm down.

I am calm very calm just hate when people think they know whats best... why can't you just leave the topic alone...

And his topic also has links to tools as well. So they are similar. But again, I was just suggesting.

Just cause something is simular doesnt mean they are one and the same!

I just wanted to help. Calling someone mini mod, annoying and the whole world 'going crazy' isnt a good idea. I suggest you to calm down.

Once again i am calm, and what would you "suggest" I call what your doing? Why bother suggesting anything the isnt relevant to the topic at all? if you wanna help post something relevant, not "I think you should move the topic ect..." And yeah I add links and you all are seeing what you want which is a resource topic, and I stated 3 times already this isn't a resource topic its a discussion about different tools aka resources. So either comment on the resources i talked about or add your own or dont post at all.

Enough if this pointless bickering back on topic I wont say no more about merging this topic....

 

[MarkLegault]

Yes I am, to "Suggest" im not is rude, I never said they were different.

What you wrote doesnt make sense.

Well your suggestions are annoying

Well your tutorials are very annoying and badly written to me, but I don't say that to you, do I? Behave properly in forums. I'm saying this for your own good.

I am calm very calm just hate when people think they know whats best...

I didn't say I do...

Just cause something is simular doesnt mean they are one and the same!

Wut?

what would you "suggest" I call what your doing?

You have the answer in your sentence.

and I stated 3 times already this isn't a resource topic its a discussion about different tools aka resources.

And at least 3 people say it looks like a 'resource topic', including a moderator. Its not only me who thinks like that. I dont really care, I don't continue this argument because I want to 'merge your topic', its because you continue behaving incorrectly.

 

[Neo-Dragon]

This is a warning.
Don't start arguing.
I'm not closing the thread, but I'm fecking (that's an irish term lol) sick of reading your posts bashing people KingCharizard. You have a fit if someone has any disagreement with you and act like a fecking 5 year old.
Quit that behaviour now.

You can have an opinion, but don't consently post back bashing people if they don't agree with it.

Your post made me do this:

 

[KingCharizard]

This is a warning.
Don't start arguing.
I'm not closing the thread, but I'm fecking (that's an irish term lol) sick of reading your posts bashing people KingCharizard. You have a fit if someone has any disagreement with you and act like a fecking 5 year old.
Quit that behaviour now.

You can have an opinion, but don't consently post back bashing people if they don't agree with it.

Your post made me do this:

Good 4 you I dont care, I'm curious how I bashed anyone he was the one talking bout my topic should be moved and what not I simply asked him to stop and talk about the topic. I tried to remain reasonable but he kept at it... I mean jesus read the posts. I Got arrgravated after he kept insisting my topic be moved, or "Suggesting" as he so gracefully put it. Why is it so hard for people to post something relevant? Why is it so hard for people to see things for what they are, why is it so hard for people here to realize they dont have to try to correct everything...

Im no novelist and my tutorials may have been a little edgy but it was my attempt to help I dont see you contributing anything and I wouldnt be suprised if some1 found my guide helpful... I mean you idiotts think you know all and its annoying. Behave? Dude you come into my topic and suggest it should be moved, why? Why would you need to do something like that? Its called mini modding on more mature communities. I sick and tired of this place everyone has an opinion well you people dont like what I have to say then dont posts... Oh im so gonna get banned for this and I find it really quite amusing... Actually I'm hoping this does get me banned so I'm not tempted to come back and see if you stupid kids have grown up, yeah I take offense when says im completely wrong, I know there are times i am wrong, many times infact but to say im completely wrong is crap! Yeah I have trouble wording things sometimes and my message may come off wrong, but you should beable to understand what I mean. Once again I have to break down what I've said so you understand

What you wrote doesnt make sense.

you implied i wasnt reading the posts. I never said your open source point was invalid.

Well your tutorials are very annoying and badly written to me, but I don't say that to you, do I? Behave properly in forums. I'm saying this for your own good.

I wrote one tutorial and I said when it was posted it was incomplete and poorly done, yet people still felt the need to point that out. I mean come on was it really needed to point out it was crap when I said it was... Also I dont think written is an actual word(It might be).

I didn't say I do...

you didnt have to I told you to leave the post be and stay on topic and you kept insisting my topic be moved/merged, seriously was it so hard to let it go...

Wut?

Yeah the topics are identical but his and my post where two different topics and I was going for a different end result.

You have the answer in your sentence.

No I do not, because you had no right to "Suggest" my topic be moved/merged, it was not needed and you aren't a mod.

And at least 3 people say it looks like a 'resource topic', including a moderator. Its not only me who thinks like that. I dont really care, I don't continue this argument because I want to 'merge your topic', its because you continue behaving incorrectly.

Please people define how this is a resource topic because It contains links? So if they were removed would it still be a resource topic? I stated in the beginning i'd like to discuss the tools.


I just cant believe i'm the one who got an infraction because I "Suggested" he stay on topic... Unbelieveable...

 

[~JV~]

@ND: That made me laugh man xD.

Well, good initiative of yours, but you failed with the purpose of the thread, all you did was mention the name of the engine and say if it's you fave or not and give really superficial reasons for that, that won't help anyone choosing an engine to use at all (except that you gave links).

 

[KingCharizard]

@ND: That made me laugh man xD.

Well, good initiative of yours, but you failed with the purpose of the thread, all you did was mention the name of the engine and say if it's you fave or not and give really superficial reasons for that, that won't help anyone choosing an engine to use at all (except that you gave links).

dammit, is it that hard to see the intentions of this thread. Its to discuss the tools not a guide to help people decide. Yea it shows people what tools are out there but that what your post and the ones before you were supposed to do is talk about what you felt was good or bad about the tools.... It was not a guide nor a tutorial, read my whole post... I said I wanted peoples thoughts on the tools out there. its in the first post in the beginning... And The reasons i gave were what I felt to be the pros and cons of each tool listed, as I stated aswell.

What I wanted to happen is a I mention a few tools, people add more, we discuss what we love or hate about them and people reading this topic who was interested in one of the tools would see what different people felt about each tool, to help them undertand the pros and cons of each tool.

 

[MarkLegault]

Its called mini modding on more mature communities.
...
I sick and tired of this place everyone has an opinion
...
so I'm not tempted to come back and see if you stupid kids have grown up
...
No I do not, because you had no right to "Suggest"
...
I mean you idiotts think you know all and its annoying.

I'll pretend I didn't read that.

I dont see you contributing anything

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=204989
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6356/male.png
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6817/17977431.jpg
Well you won't see me replying to your topics and posts anymore.
EDIT: After getting a 'nice' message from a 'former' member, Shikamaru88 on Youtube, right after this argument here, I just have this feeling, KingCharizard = Shikamaru88.
Same writing style, same age (in Youtube), both usernames end with 88 (in Youtube), registration date very close to infraction date of the other.

 

[Alexandre]

Dude you come into my topic and suggest it should be moved, why? Why would you need to do something like that?

I just don't get your problem. What's wrong with the thread being moved? It will get equal viewing ( and probably even more in the tools section at that ). The mods have every right to move the thread.

You have contradicted yourself over and over in your little debate. You started bashing the first poster on his opinion on where the thread should be. His opinion. You then start complaining that everyone has the right to an opinion.

Then, you start complaining that everyone has gone off thread. If you did not reply to Wordslayer in that manner, we would all be talking about the tools.

Anyway. Thanks for the link to XNA. I had no idea it was free.

 

[Luka S.J.]

EDIT: After getting a 'nice' message from a 'former' member, Shikamaru88 on Youtube, right after this argument here, I just have this feeling, KingCharizard = Shikamaru88.
Same writing style, same age (in Youtube), both usernames end with 88 (in Youtube), registration date very close to infraction date of the other.

You do have a point, but in my opinion KingCharizard was way nicer to Wichu than Shikamaru88 was, though the attitude shown here is probably on the same level of the other.

KingCharizard...seriously? You need to chill. It's probably just hormones rushing through that head of yours, so you shouldn't worry about that too much. You wanted to post a thread for discussion...fine, let's discuss. But your attitude is certainly not helping your thread out one bit at all. Don't really see the point of it, since we all joined this little "discussion" you are having with other fellow members, which is going to completely ruin this or any other of your threads or thread attempts. I mean you just <censored> in your shoe. This wasn't needed at all and you were the one starting to bash the others for taking some of their time, and acctually make the effort to post some words which you might not find useful, but others won't find them useless. I mean....see what you made Neo-Dragon do?

Look...I could understand if you are trying to defend yourself when being wrongly accused or being randomly attacked by another member, but this is what you are doing to other members. I really don't get what the point of all of this was, and what point you were trying to make, but you're just wasting everyone's time with an attitude like this.

 

[KingCharizard]

I thought about that but I want it to be a discussion, not a resource topic, and please quit mini modding its annoying if you dont have anything revelant to say then please dont post, and if you are a mod then please ask the topic creator before moving the thread. Talk about the tools i've listed and comment on what you think about them or add your own... I mean how hard is it to contribute to a topic? "really..." I posted the links so people understand the tools i'm talking about. To who ever moved this, next time ask. Besides the resource sub forum should be for resources only not discussions... Where I orginally posted this was quite fine as it was posted in the game dev section... I'll proabaly get a warning or whatever for saying this but its annoying how people report topics because its in the wrong section or staff will move a topic because they think its in the wrong section. This community can be quite annoying sometimes, because people assume too much here. I mean people chill out relax and dont take things so seriously all the time... Yea at times i've gotten serious but i was stressed out because of my employer hounding me to meet a deadline whats your excuse.

Ok When i said this ^^ He said nothing relevant to the topic just that he thinks it should be moved, I mean come on. his post:

*sigh* This should probably be in the Resource section. You are linking to tools, and you are also discussing tools. Really...​

his *sigh* Shows his frusteration, and by ending the post in "really..." he implied, you should of know better.

Why should't I get frusterated when a post like this is made.

and then there was this,

Well thats your opinion. I think a real drawback is for example, if you have a major deadline and found a bug in the library itself... No one is responsible to fix it for you.
I don't think there are features missing in Irrlicht (tried), Ogre (heard), or Panda (tried) that are required to make a game like Pokemon (2d or 3d). Also, there are many 'advanced' features both in open source and commercial engines that you will probably never use. Yet people consider those when choosing an engine.
And most games here are 2d anyway.
And this was just my opinion.


For the topic itself, I think it should be merged with davidthefat's topic. Sorry, but they are too similar. The other is called 'C/C++ resources' but it has more than that. And has UDK listed as well, for example. I think the topics should be merged into 'game programming resources'. What do you think? Also thats not a big deal, but you don't really need to write topic title in capitals.

and I posted a reply in a positive manner...

I agree when you dont have the source code bugs can be a problem but torque comes with source code... thats why its my favorite and this is a discussion not a resource topic thats why I didnt like that it was moved. Yeah you can get the engines by following the links but my intentions were different... And I dunno y I posted the topic in all caps... lol hand;t realized it till you just said something...

then this is where my so called bashing begins...

You misunderstood. I ment if you use an open source library and find a bug in the library itself, you can't 'demand' the devs to fix that, since you don't pay them.

No you cant demand they fix it and you shouldn't be demanding anything and if your paying for a commercial engine your paying for a bug free product thats why the offer free update downloads. With open source you have to find the bug and fix it yourself which can sometimes be quicker but a hassle.

But it sure looks like a 'resource topic' and thats why it was moved. And I think there isnt a problem to discuss about engines in a 'resource topic' as well. Now there are 2 similar topics. So thats why I suggest you to contact davidthefat to add your engines to his list and contact a mod to remove your topic and rename the other one to 'Game programming resources' or something, since it really isnt just C++.

Just to keep things clean.

Jesus I add links and now the whole worlds going crazy... Just let it go... Quit mini modding, too many people here do it and its annoying. I dont tell you what to do with your topics so dont tell me what to do with mine. His topic points to tutorials and links to learn c/C++ and what not. Mine Points too tools so you can create a game, so his topic contains the UDK big deal its a tool which is what my topic is all about. Your really quite annoying, post something relevant or post nothing its that simple.

Ok yeah that was a little stright foward or mean if thats the way you wanna see it, but i'll once again break it down and you'll see how this isnt mean/bashing untile he was asking for it.

Jesus I add links and now the whole worlds going crazy... Just let it go... Quit mini modding, too many people here do it and its annoying.

I was kinda frusterated because this was the second person suggesting where my topic should or should be who wasn't a mod.

dont tell you what to do with your topics so dont tell me what to do with mine.His topic points to tutorials and links to learn c/C++ and what not. Mine Points too tools so you can create a game, so his topic contains the UDK big deal its a tool which is what my topic is all about.

All I did here was state a fact.

Your really quite annoying, post something relevant or post nothing its that simple.

This was the second time he suggested my topic be moved, yeah I could of been a little nicer, but I already I didnt like that it was moved and tried to change the topic. But he kept at it and talking bout it wouldnt change it or crying over the fact my topic was mived wouldnt move it back I just wanted to drop it. Wouldn't you call that annoying?

Then my following posts just got even more rude, I know, but he kept insisting he was correct and yeah he may have been right, but its not his job to care about the threads orgin or his job to care bout what should be done with the thread. I know Shikamaru from another forum, Gamedev to be exact. He's the one who actually introduced me to pokecommunity before he decided to leave, thats why I was kinda bothered by him leaving. He also owns Hardwood Games, which is the company my pc game is published under, unless some big company decides to take my game up.

@markligut open source points
I never fully dissagreed about his open source point, i simply pointed out why i thought it was bad while taking into account his points. Yeah I dont like open source As i stated in the first post, so in a way I disagreed but alot of people use open source tools. I pointed out why I dont use them while trying to keep an open mind.

But please tell me when I posted a rude topic or bashed some1 when it wasn't needed or who was asking for it. I'm still suprised you all see my faults, there is no doubt I messed up but so did he, yet you fail to point that out.

Yeah I was in a bad mood and took it out on him and I am sorry if i upset him, but even though I was wrong I wont take back what I said because mean, harsh bashing or not it needed to be said.