Do you think that prostitution should be legalized?

[Mr. X]

While you might not beleive in that, you posted it. As far as I know, thats how you beleive. As for me constantly bringing that point up, you asked why I thought you 'apparently beleived' something and that was something you said that allowed me to assume that.

Anyway, in other words if a prostitute started recording her acts and giving them to her customers then she is operating within the law?

 

[Dawn]

While you might not beleive in that, you posted it. As far as I know, thats how you beleive.

You're implying you're completely ignoring the fact that I've stated otherwise directly to you multiple times. This circular argument of you not acknowledging that you know I don't believe that is kind of superfluous.

Anyway, in other words if a prostitute started recording her acts and giving them to her customers then she is operating within the law?

No, because even if she tapes it, she's still gaining money for the sex and not acting. Pornstars get money for acting, not the sex involved in the acting. The law acknowledges the difference. The Supreme Court itself came to this decision. So yeah, you've got your answer as to where the law stands on that.

 

[RedLeopard]

What is the distinction between offering sex as a service and offering anything else as a service?

Controlled regulated businesses such as the notorious 'Bunny ranch' in Nevada are examples of when professionally organised prostitution can succeed without the workers being; a) exploited and forced into situations where they would be if they were to work for other more 'back street' brothels which usually take a massive cut of the workers' earnings, and make them dependent on the owners.
b) exposed to sexually transmitted diseases and other health risks. Regulated buisnesses which have strict health requirements would cut health risks dramatically.

This is illustrated by many pornography companies which require actors and actresses to be screened for STDs and anything else which can be transmitted and/or harmful to people whom they have sex with.

Is there a difference between prostitution and pornography?

 

[Mr. X]

No, because even if she tapes it, she's still gaining money for the sex and not acting. Pornstars get money for acting, not the sex involved in the acting. The law acknowledges the difference. The Supreme Court itself came to this decision. So yeah, you've got your answer as to where the law stands on that.

Aite then. She's getting paid to act like a prostute. The sex is just a part of the act.

And no, there is no diffrence. You know why? How many women do you think will act in a porno movie if they don't get paid? Yah, thats right, almost none.

 

[Ray Maverick]

Noo, are you serious? Do you know how many families would be ruined?

 

[Dawn]

I angsted so hard upon seeing this thread again. -_-;

Aite then. She's getting paid to act like a prostute. The sex is just a part of the act.

Quite frankly, you're assuming I even like the pornography industry. I don't care for them one bit. For all I care that industry can find a way to become illegal. Furthermore, I have no interest in debating the morality of pornography. So inb4 that. >_>; ...So yeah, straw man argument.

It's also honestly a pretty weak argument, mainly because it relies on slippery slope logic.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Noo, are you serious? Do you know how many families would be ruined?

If someone wants to be unfaithful to his or her spouse, outlawing prostitution won't stop them.

 

[Narcissist]

What I disagree with on this subject is simply conflating prostitution with either pornography (somehow) or human trafficking - possible correlation definitely does not mean causation. It's the illegality that makes it hard to differentiate between prostitution and human trafficking and makes it hard to give certain rights and protection to those who need them.

If the woman (or man), as a capable responsible adult, chooses to work as a prostitute then I can't fathom why it shouldn't be treated just like any other choice/job - the automatic blanket response to them as some sort of victim or of low status is nonsensical. The debate isn't between 'no prostitution' or 'prostitution'; it is going to happen anyway so the legalisation and sensible regulation could only bring about a safer environment for these people and their clients.

 

[Dawn]

It's the illegality that makes it hard to differentiate between prostitution and human trafficking and makes it hard to give certain rights and protection to those who need them.

How so?

I can't fathom why it shouldn't be treated just like any other choice/job

Sweeping generalization. >3>

possible correlation definitely does not mean causation.

Human trafficking still makes up a huge majority though, which is where we're at right now. =|

responsible adult

chooses to work as a prostitute

Prostitution is far from "responsible".

it is going to happen anyway so the legalisation and sensible regulation could only bring about a safer environment for these people and their clients.

Another sweeping generalization. Your argument applies to murder. That's a pretty good indication it's a bad one.

 

[Narcissist]

Sweeping generalisations? Okay, let's expand and apply the thought behind what I said.

How so?

I believe it's already been noted on this thread but I'd like to reiterate the fact that the legal ramifications and negative connotations associated with prostitution make it more difficult to and will make people less inclined to report to the police if an incident such as rape happened. Society has been working to represent sex as a mutual, consensual act and I think that legalising prostitution can be a part of that.

Sweeping generalization. >3>

A sweeping generalisation? Really?
It isn't treated like any other job. The fact that we're discussing whether it should be legal or not completely takes it out of that group - notify me when a thread pops up for whether agriculture should be legal or not. The refusal to recognise prostitution as an actual trade demonises it, and attitudes towards it are that it is seen as sub-human and subsequently the workers sub-human; I don't think that's acceptable. A perfect example is here in this thread supplied by Ray Maverick.

Noo, are you serious? Do you know how many families would be ruined?

Basically: prostitute = homewrecker.

Human trafficking still makes up a huge majority though, which is where we're at right now. =|

Yes, human trafficking is a serious problem but trying to eradicate it completely would be impossible. I think that applied regulation on prostitution could become a safer alternative for those who turn/or are turned to prostitution after or instead of human trafficking. For some currently in human trafficking situations, help is not always conceivable. Legalisation of prostitution never promised to solve human trafficking, and it won't, but the illegality of it now is doing little to change human trafficking, because as you say it's still makes up a huge majority.

Prostitution is far from "responsible".

I'm going to use your phrase and say 'sweeping generalisation'. If you'd care to explain what you mean by saying it's not responsible, I'd love to hear. Boiled down to it, prostitution is basically money provided for a service. A service not everyone may agree with but an example of a legal trade that not everyone agrees on the morality of is gambling.

Another sweeping generalization. Your argument applies to murder. That's a pretty good indication it's a bad one.

Prostitution and murder are not comparable in this discussion. Taking the life of someone in a non self-defense situation is inherently wrong, and I don't think prostitution can or should be viewed on the same level.
Please explain to me how certain things like registration, laws conducive to healthcare, sexual health and privacy, and prostitutes getting the same respect as other workers could be anything but beneficial to the trade and society to some extent.

 

[Dawn]

I'd like to reiterate the fact that the legal ramifications and negative connotations associated with prostitution make it more difficult to and will make people less inclined to report to the police if an incident such as rape happened. Society has been working to represent sex as a mutual, consensual act and I think that legalising prostitution can be a part of that.

You're not backing these statements up at all.

I hate to be the one to point out the insultingly obvious, but in most cases simply removing the law does not, in fact, solve crime.

It's been said before. Allow me to reiterate myself. Most of the prostitution that goes on is a form of sexual slavery. The notion that we can simply legalize prostitution is not only immoral it's unconstitutional.

Yes, human trafficking is a serious problem but trying to eradicate it completely would be impossible.

This applies to every crime ever. It's as void of a point as an argument can get.

I think that applied regulation on prostitution could become a safer alternative for those who turn/or are turned to prostitution after or instead of human trafficking.

I'm sorry, but you appear to have mistaken prostitution for marijuana. That's alright! Just about everyone else seems to make that mistake too. =/

You can't effectively regulate prostitution. It's completely unconstitutional to simply legalize the most common forms of prostitution. This raises the problem that there are illegal prostitutes and legal ones doing the same things. How exactly do you plan on dealing with that one? Licenses? Will we have cops patrolling the bedrooms regularly to check them?

Also, y'know something? If you "are turned" and don't willingly, without any pushing, turn to prostitution? Grats. That's slavery.

For some currently in human trafficking situations, help is not always conceivable. Legalisation of prostitution never promised to solve human trafficking, and it won't, but the illegality of it now is doing little to change human trafficking, because as you say it's still makes up a huge majority.

Problem. They are heavily intertwined. Simply legalizing one would inadvertently legalize the other. This is a problem that needs answering. You can't just legalize prostitution until you figure out how to fully separate the two, which realistically can't be done. (See: Regulation)

Second of all? We can only do so much to protect the minorities in this situation. Consider this when trying to figure out the mentioned problem.

I'm going to use your phrase and say 'sweeping generalisation'. If you'd care to explain what you mean by saying it's not responsible, I'd love to hear. Boiled down to it, prostitution is basically money provided for a service. A service not everyone may agree with but an example of a legal trade that not everyone agrees on the morality of is gambling.

...There's no sweeping generalization there.

Prostitution isn't responsible because it's dangerous, is just for pleasure, and on top of all that, illegal.

Prostitution and murder are not comparable in this discussion.

See, I just did and in doing so pointed out a major flaw in your logic. Nice try though...

 

[DoctorSlavic]

There's so much to read, I think I'll just post my opinions first. Though Penn and Teller may have waived my opinion a bit...

I feel that prostitution should be legal.

1) It is legal for people to have sex and it is legal to sell stuff. Why can't you put them together?

2) People say that it is too dangerous to be legalized because of murder and kidnappings and what not. But if it was legalized, the government could step in and help protect prostitutes from danger. The only reason they aren't protected is because it is illegal.

3) From what I understand, prostitutes usually have a somewhat emotional connection with their customers, not a hollow, degrading one.

4) If it is legal to go to a building and pay for sex in public, then why is it illegal to pay someone for sex in private?

That is all... for now.

 

[Distorted Personality]

Human trafficking and prostitution, are two different things.

Prostitution is all about consentually giving a service which is paid for. Human Trafficking refers to providing a service or selling a product without consent.

Human trafficking is like rape. Prostitution like straight out sex.

From this logic, is it ethical to outlaw sex?

If you look at it from a man's point of view, what is preferable and more ethical - paying for a service, or manipulating women to get the service for free? The women in the prostitution business are fully aware of the ramifications of their job. There may be some women who are simply in desperate need of cash and they turn to prostitution for quick cash without thinking of the consequences and frankly, it'll be a learning experience more than anything else.

Say you are a woman with little skill or work experience. How else are you going to get the money? Sure - you can shun these women for not trying hard enough, but this is just how people are. Not everyone is the same and hence you can't expect everyone to think the same way as you.

Legalising prostitution can take us towards a safe and reliable sex industry.

 

[Dawn]

1) It is legal for people to have sex and it is legal to sell stuff. Why can't you put them together?

There's a fallacy of composition here. Just because two things are good does not mean that combining them is necessarily good.

2) People say that it is too dangerous to be legalized because of murder and kidnappings and what not. But if it was legalized, the government could step in and help protect prostitutes from danger. The only reason they aren't protected is because it is illegal.

Committing crimes against criminals is not legal. You just implied it was. Prostitutes /refuse/ to get protection because they're criminals. That's different. =/ Quite frankly, we owe them no legal sympathy for that.

Furthermore, STDs are an entirely different danger you have to deal with.

3) From what I understand, prostitutes usually have a somewhat emotional connection with their customers, not a hollow, degrading one.

That statistic is very sketchy and I'm very hard pressed to believe it. How would anyone know that? How can we even trust said people not to be bias? Not to lie? They seem to have great motives to do so. What is hollow and degrading to a prostitute? Their standards seem pretty subjective.

4) If it is legal to go to a building and pay for sex in public, then why is it illegal to pay someone for sex in private?

I'm pretty sure both are illegal.

 

[DoctorSlavic]

Yellow, I think you should watch some Penn and Teller. They get both sides; why prostitution should be legalized and why it shouldn't. It's really a good show. Can't post the name of it, though...

Many brothels are very strict about sexual hygiene as a point of fact.

Also, you sound like my old teacher, Mr. Estice. He was a good debater.

 

[Dawn]

Yellow, I think you should watch some Penn and Teller. They get both sides; why prostitution should be legalized and why it shouldn't. It's really a good show. Can't post the name of it, though...

Also, you sound like my old teacher, Mr. Estice. He was a good debater.

Maybe I will sometime when I'm looking for something to do. ._.'

I don't sound old do I? Ffff-...thank you.

Many brothels are very strict about sexual hygiene as a point of fact.

This isn't so hard to believe, on the other hand. I might question how one could know, but on the other hand, I can see why rings would like to keep clean in many cases. I could give this the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Esper]

If I may attempt to slightly change the direction of the debate and a question and get everyone's view on something. We've argued about the human trafficking element of prostitution and while no one disagrees with the fact that trafficking is horrible, we seem to disagree on exactly how ingrained it is in prostitution and how or if it would change should prostitution become legal. So. My question is: is human trafficking something that is widespread in prostitution because prostitution is illegal or is it endemic to the institution of prostitution? Or, more simply, does it happen because prostitution is against the law and that makes it easier or because it's just how prostitution works and will never change no matter how legal it is?

 

[Dawn]

Well, let's consider that human trafficking is a much larger problem than simple prostitution alone. For instance, without even getting out of sexual slavery, we have a huge child prostitution problem right now that is a very direct result of human trafficking, not the other way around.

That being said, the USA is one of the more respectable countries in this manner. The USA, Canada, Australia, and to a slightly lesser degree Europe (It's not as consistent in Europe, but is still pretty dang good compared to the rest of the world.) have a very clear significant lead in successfully fighting female trafficking than other parts of the world.

Now, I'm going to pull up some numbers.

Courtesy of this source: https://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46606.htm

Every year we add to our knowledge of the trafficking phenomenon. In last year's Report, we used U.S. Government data that disaggregated transnational trafficking in persons by age and gender for the first time. These data showed that, of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 men, women, and children trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80 percent are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors. The data also illustrate that the majority of transnational victims are trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation. With a focus on transnational trafficking in persons, however, these data fail to include millions of victims around the world who are trafficked within their own national borders.

50 percent are children. Not a number to yawn at. Also of note is that human trafficking encompasses all forms of modern slavery, not just of the sexual sort. The sexual variety is however, probably the biggest problem in the modern world.

Now, what do these numbers tell us? First of all, let's look back at child prostitution. Can we all agree that the notion that even a significant minority of these children go into the business on an even remotely "willing" basis is pretty dang far fetched? Good! What can we infer from this? We can look at this and realize that human trafficking is more or less responsible for child prostitution's health. Without it, child prostitution would probably be an itsy bitsy problem in comparison. (Ignoring the serious psychological and mental damage it can cause to it's victims which would not just disappear if Human Trafficking did)

Now, obviously adults are somewhat different. How different though? Enough to completely flip a comparison on it's head? No. I don't think so. Heck, what do you think happens to child prostitutes? They grow up into adult prostitutes! To a slightly lesser degree, adult prostitution probably reflects child prostitution in nature.

What I'm getting at here is that human trafficking is not only extremely endemic to prostitution, but that it may also very likely be fundimental to the success of the organization at large. It's extremely questionable whether human trafficking created prostitution or vice versa, but one things for sure and that's that human trafficking is wearing the pants in that relationship right now, at present. (No wordplay intended)

Also, human trafficking wouldn't simply become a rarity if we legalized it. There is very simple logic behind this. In human trafficking, you get slaves. In the legalized version, you get employees. That's a different environment and relationship that can facilitate different things. The world clearly still has a pretty strong demand for slaves and clearly doesn't care how much danger is involved. As a matter of point, it's a lot harder to catch the people using prostitutes than the prostitutes themselves, so the buyers are relatively safe. (This is because police can simply pose as buyers to catch prostitutes, whereas posing as prostitutes is significantly more difficult. The most common way buyers get caught is people ratting them out.)

Prostitution is also not an institution at all. There is a respectful connotation to that word for a reason, one the prostitution rings do not deserve in the slightest, legal or not.

A society or organization founded for a religious, educational, social, or similar purpose.

You wouldn't call your local supermarket an institution, much less prostitution rings.

 

[Luck]

Well, let's consider that human trafficking is a much larger problem than simple prostitution alone. For instance, without even getting out of sexual slavery, we have a huge child prostitution problem right now that is a very direct result of human trafficking, not the other way around.

That being said, the USA is one of the more respectable countries in this manner. The USA, Canada, Australia, and to a slightly lesser degree Europe (It's not as consistent in Europe, but is still pretty dang good compared to the rest of the world.) have a very clear significant lead in successfully fighting female trafficking than other parts of the world.

Now, I'm going to pull up some numbers.

Courtesy of this source: https://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46606.htm



50 percent are children. Not a number to yawn at. Also of note is that human trafficking encompasses all forms of modern slavery, not just of the sexual sort. The sexual variety is however, probably the biggest problem in the modern world.

Now, what do these numbers tell us? First of all, let's look back at child prostitution. Can we all agree that the notion that even a significant minority of these children go into the business on an even remotely "willing" basis is pretty dang far fetched? Good! What can we infer from this? We can look at this and realize that human trafficking is more or less responsible for child prostitution's health. Without it, child prostitution would probably be an itsy bitsy problem in comparison. (Ignoring the serious psychological and mental damage it can cause to it's victims which would not just disappear if Human Trafficking did)

Now, obviously adults are somewhat different. How different though? Enough to completely flip a comparison on it's head? No. I don't think so. Heck, what do you think happens to child prostitutes? They grow up into adult prostitutes! To a slightly lesser degree, adult prostitution probably reflects child prostitution in nature.

What I'm getting at here is that human trafficking is not only extremely endemic to prostitution, but that it may also very likely be fundimental to the success of the organization at large. It's extremely questionable whether human trafficking created prostitution or vice versa, but one things for sure and that's that human trafficking is wearing the pants in that relationship right now, at present. (No wordplay intended)

Also, human trafficking wouldn't simply become a rarity if we legalized it. There is very simple logic behind this. In human trafficking, you get slaves. In the legalized version, you get employees. That's a different environment and relationship that can facilitate different things. The world clearly still has a pretty strong demand for slaves and clearly doesn't care how much danger is involved. As a matter of point, it's a lot harder to catch the people using prostitutes than the prostitutes themselves, so the buyers are relatively safe. (This is because police can simply pose as buyers to catch prostitutes, whereas posing as prostitutes is significantly more difficult. The most common way buyers get caught is people ratting them out.)

Prostitution is also not an institution at all. There is a respectful connotation to that word for a reason, one the prostitution rings do not deserve in the slightest, legal or not.



You wouldn't call your local supermarket an institution, much less prostitution rings.

>Talk about the horrors of human trafficking
>Say it should still be illegal because there's apparently not a huge difference between slaves and employees
>Women are significantly less likely to tell officials if they've been sexually assaulted, for fear of being put under arrest
>Streets will be cleaner

I can't be bothered to read that much, so I just want to know how keeping prostitution illegal will reduce trafficking. If you don't mind of course, friend ^^

 

[Esper]

So, Yellow, you're definitely down in the "trafficking is endemic to prostitution" column. I don't mean to single you out, but if you don't mind answering another question: do you think that there's any way - and feel free to think in terms of a best case scenario, such as all world human trafficking being eliminated - to restructure prostitution so that it isn't exploitative?

I ask because for all the statistics you've shown and all the realities of prostitution around the world I'm still in favor of legalizing it in ideal circumstances. Meaning that there is good oversight and regulation. I wouldn't, for instance, advocate legalizing it in countries where you couldn't trust the government to make things better.

Prostitution is also not an institution at all. There is a respectful connotation to that word for a reason, one the prostitution rings do not deserve in the slightest, legal or not.

You wouldn't call your local supermarket an institution, much less prostitution rings.

An institution is any structure or mechanism of social order and cooperation governing the behavior of a set of individuals within a given human community.

Yeah, yeah, wikipedia isn't reliable, but I wanted a concise definition. Prostitution is an institution like marriage insomuch as it has its own rules for how people are supposed to behave and interact. That's how I meant the word.