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Driver License vs Right to Travel

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon
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    But there are still laws regarding obtaining firearms. In fact you often need a license to bear certain kinds of firearms, just like most kinds of motor vehicles. There are vehicles you don't need a license for, such as mopeds, but like many guns, many motor vehicles also have barriers to ownership. Your argument is still invalid.
     

    for him.

    I'm trash.
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    Since nobody seems to be getting my point, I'm going to try really hard to clarify though I've made myself pretty clear before. You have the Right to property. You have the Right to transport your property. If you buy an automobile, it is your property, therefore you have the Right to transport it at free will as long as you aren't using said vehicle to transport people or good FOR A FEE. No license or recurring tax need be imposed on property because its a direct vilation of your Rights. The only way a Right may be removed from a person is if they abuse that Right, but it has to be done property through Due Process and just because one person abuses a Right, doesn't mean it can be taken from everyone. If you kill or hurt someone or damage property with your automobile, of course you should (and will) be liable. Obviously, if a person is clearly travelling safely and not imposing a danger on people or property around him, there's no need for him to have a license. Again, its about common sense. Learn it before you use it. Public safety does NOT reign over Individual Rights and though safety is important, it should be crafted carefully to avoid violating Rights. Stops signs and traffic lights are important, I agree, but none of those impose a violation of the Right, whereas a license does. The Right to tavel in your private automobile should be regulated in the same sense that guns are. If you're convicted by the jury of a crime that involved an automobile (on a felony level), then you lose your Right to own an automobile, just like it is with guns.

    Okay first off, then how do these people learn how to use the car properly? The driver's license process does that.

    Secondly, you are arguing for the right of travel. Which, by the way, is not restricted by driver's license as we can basically go anywhere we want within a country as long as we aren't on the run from the authorities. The driver's license is a limit on the car. Not TRAVEL.

    Thirdly, wow this is the first time you ever explicitly mentioned the right to travel in an AUTOMOBILE. Maybe you should have argued that in the first place. >.>

    Fourthly, you do know that there are gun regulations we have to follow right? You should since it is all over the news.
     
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    Gun licenses and other restrictions such as registration is unconstitutional, therefore no citizen is bound to obey it. Registration leads to confiscation. I don't need a license to own an M4 nor do i need a license to own and travel in an automobile, what part of the law don't you understand? No secondary law that conflicts the Supreme Law is valid. No, I've mentioned automobile aka vehicle multiple times. Why do you think I started this thread? By the way, abolishment of gay marriage is unconstitutional as well because marriage is a human Right, therefore no license is needed.

    The Second Amendment reads "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the Right of the People to keep and bear Arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Licenses are a form of infringement. Where's the Due Process as guarenteed by the Fifth Amendment.

    Why do you need a license to learn how to "drive" a car? That would be like saying you need a license to learn how to ride a bike. You can be taught by someone who is knowledgeable in the use of a car. Its like teaching someone how to maintain the engine. Simple education.
     

    Ivysaur

    Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
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    Essentially, a licence is only a way to make sure people driving can actually drive, it's not an evil torment imposed to violate anybody's rights (why the random capitalization I wonder. Although I'm not sure I want to know the answer). There are other bigger problems in the world to worry about, if you already know how to drive, passing the licence test should take you any effort, there are other ways to move around than by driving a car, and, most important of all;

    Everything you said is YOUR own interpretation of how law SHOULD work according to your OPINION. Not how law works in reality. Sorry to say. As I have already said, it's fine if you believe your right to move should include driving without a licence but in real life it doesn't work like this. Vote for politicians who promise to turn your dreams into reality, lead demonstrations, protest. But don't act as if everybody in the world were wrong and/or didn't understand how laws work but you.

    You keep pressing YOUR understanding of the constitution as if it were the only valid and everybody else who happens to have a different understanding (including real-life politicians and judges, the ones, you know, making the law, not you) is wrong.
     

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    I'm trash.
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    Gun licenses and other restrictions such as registration is unconstitutional, therefore no citizen is bound to obey it. Registration leads to confiscation. I don't need a license to own an M4 nor do i need a license to own and travel in an automobile, what part of the law don't you understand? No secondary law that conflicts the Supreme Law is valid. No, I've mentioned automobile aka vehicle multiple times. Why do you think I started this thread? By the way, abolishment of gay marriage is unconstitutional as well because marriage is a human Right, therefore no license is needed.

    The Second Amendment reads "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the Right of the People to keep and bear Arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Licenses are a form of infringement. Where's the Due Process as guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

    Why do you need a license to learn how to "drive" a car? That would be like saying you need a license to learn how to ride a bike. You can be taught by someone who is knowledgeable in the use of a car. Its like teaching someone how to maintain the engine. Simple education.

    Not according to the Supreme Court. If you actually know a little bit of history, you would know that throughout the years there have been exceptions to things in the Bill of Rights and that there are times where rights are taken away for the safety of others.

    Example, you can scream fire in a movie theater.

    Just because you say something is unconstitutional, doesn't mean it is seen that way in the legal system.
     
  • 77
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    Screaming fire in a theater is a horrible comparison. That creates panic, but how does safely travelling without a license create panic? Also, of course that's how I interpreted it as 16AmJur2d., Sec. 97: "Then a constitution should receive a literal interpretation in favor of the Citizen, is especially true, with respect to those provisions which were designed to safeguard the liberty and security of the Citizen in regard to person and property." Bary v. United States - 273 US 128 "Any constitutional provision intended to confer a benefit should be liberally construed in favor in the clearly intended and expressly designated beneficiary" (You are the Beneficiary of the US Constitution). Also, I've proved it with plenty of cases.
     

    Corvus of the Black Night

    Wild Duck Pokémon
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    inb4 Kevo pulls a Thoreau and writes a paper to why he shouldn't be arrested because he didn't wanna pay his taxes drives with a suspended or invalid license later

    Also, I've proved it with plenty of cases.
    I can also use the supreme court cases such as Wisconsin v. Yoder to claim that since it had something to do with religious practices conflicting with government practices to claim that I think that Jesus should be taught in science classes because I believe that Jesus is science* but the case in reality has nothing to do with that. Using names doesn't mean you're using names right. ALSO ALL CAPS WITH WORDS DESIGNED TO STIR PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS IS A SHIFTY BUT INEFFECTIVE STRATEGY AND REPRESENTS A LOGICAL FALLACY.

    Also, your entire argument as a WHOLE is wrong because of the way that the constitution is designed. The constitution was designed to be revised and interpreted by the supreme court. It is not the end all be all. If it were, Black people would still be 3/5ths of a person according to the census. Women would technically have no right to vote, there would be no protection for people based on race, disability, gender, ect.. That's what makes it so adaptable and why we haven't really had to replace it in almost 250 years, because it can mutate with the environment to better fit an evolving society.

    By going for a literal reading of the constitution you're missing the entire point of the constitution and what makes it actually pretty clever.

    Again, a fantastic historical event that demonstrates that the constitution can be used flexibly is Jefferson purchasing the Louisiana Purchase. There is NOTHING in the constitution that says that the US can purchase land, never has, never will. Technically it should be an overextention of the executive power of the United States. But guess what? It happened, and actually it turned out to be a pretty good move financially. Again, though, the constitution is designed as flexible document because our forefathers understood that the world changes and society changes.

    There is nothing in the constitution that says that the law of requiring a license is illegal because of the fact that it has not been interpreted as such even ONCE by the supreme court (which upholds the law) in the period that automobile licenses have been distributed nor is your full right to transportation being revoked by requiring one because quite frankly you can haul your fat ass where you need to go, and by claiming it as a violation of the right to transportation is a gross misunderstanding of the text.

    *I'm actually nonreligious but spiritual but that's not important
     
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    Please explain to me how its an oxymoron? How does having a piece of paper or plastic with my information such as name and date of birth as well as a set of numbers make me safer then without it when there is no victim? Having a license doesn't automatically mean one knows what they're doing. Its like saying "as soon as you get this license, all the knowledge you need will automatically be in your brain." If that were true, sign me a license to be a doctor and I can go in right after recieving it and pull off open heart surgery though I donkt know the first thing about it at this exact moment.
     
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    Obviously you're missing out the part in which you earn the license. That process reduces uncertainty. I can't look at you and judge whether you're a safe driver or not. The world is that uncertain - but that's exactly why driving requires a license in the first place. What you're proposing, removing the process of licensing outright, exposes everybody to that uncertainty and risk. It's not 100% effective - but you know what? Nothing is. Everything is risk. But you have to understand that there are degrees of risk, it's not black and white as you're putting it.
     
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    Here's an article by a law enforcement officer and the link to it.

    DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS By Jack McLamb (from Aid & Abet Newsletter) For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:CASE #1: "The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.CASE #2: "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.CASE #3: "The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.CASE #4: "The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government -- in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question -- is restricting, and therefore violating, the people's common law right to travel.Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions -- such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few -- on a citizen's constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:"The state cannot diminish rights of the people."And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,"Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void."Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point -- that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:"The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice." Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491."The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights." Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question - Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding."In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution..."Here's an interesting question. Is ignorance of these laws an excuse for such acts by officials? If we are to follow the letter of the law, (as we are sworn to do), this places officials who involve themselves in such unlawful acts in an unfavorable legal situation. For it is a felony and federal crime to violate or deprive citizens of their constitutionally protected rights. Our system of law dictates that there are only two ways to legally remove a right belonging to the people. These are:by lawfully amending the constitution, orby a person knowingly waiving a particular right.Some of the confusion on our present system has arisen because many millions of people have waived their right to travel unrestricted and volunteered into the jurisdiction of the state. Those who have knowingly given up these rights are now legally regulated by state law and must acquire the proper permits and registrations. There are basically two groups of people in this category:Citizens who involve themselves in commerce upon the highways of the state. Here is what the courts have said about this: "...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways...as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose, no person has a vested right to use the highways of this state, but it is a privilege...which the (state) may grant or withhold at its discretion..."State v. Johnson, 245 P 1073. There are many court cases that confirm and point out the difference between the right of the citizen to travel and a government privilege and there are numerous other court decisions that spell out the jurisdiction issue in these two distinctly different activities. However, because of space restrictions, we will leave it to officers to research it further for themselves.The second group of citizens that is legally under the jurisdiction of the state are those citizens who have voluntarily and knowingly waived their right to travel unregulated and unrestricted by requesting placement under such jurisdiction through the acquisition of a state driver's license, vehicle registration, mandatory insurance, etc. (In other words, by contract.) We should remember what makes this legal and not a violation of the common law right to travel is that they knowingly volunteer by contract to waive their rights. If they were forced, coerced or unknowingly placed under the state's powers, the courts have said it is a clear violation of their rights. This in itself raises a very interesting question. What percentage of the people in each state have applied for and received licenses, registrations and obtained insurance after erroneously being advised by their government that it was mandatory?Many of our courts, attorneys and police officials are just becoming informed about this important issue and the difference between privileges and rights. We can assume that the majority of those Americans carrying state licenses and vehicle registrations have no knowledge of the rights they waived in obeying laws such as these that the U.S. Constitution clearly states are unlawful, i.e. laws of no effect - laws that are not laws at all. An area of serious consideration for every police officer is to understand that the most important law in our land which he has taken an oath to protect, defend, and enforce, is not state laws and city or county ordinances, but the law that supersedes all other laws -- the U.S. Constitution. If laws in a particular state or local community conflict with the supreme law of our nation, there is no question that the officer's duty is to uphold the U.S. Constitution.Every police officer should keep the following U.S. court ruling -- discussed earlier -- in mind before issuing citations concerning licensing, registration, and insurance:"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. US, 230 F 486, 489.And as we have seen, traveling freely, going about one's daily activities, is the exercise of a most basic right. 

    https://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/right2travel.shtml
     

    for him.

    I'm trash.
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    Screaming fire in a theater is a horrible comparison. That creates panic, but how does safely travelling without a license create panic? Also, of course that's how I interpreted it as 16AmJur2d., Sec. 97: "Then a constitution should receive a literal interpretation in favor of the Citizen, is especially true, with respect to those provisions which were designed to safeguard the liberty and security of the Citizen in regard to person and property." Bary v. United States - 273 US 128 "Any constitutional provision intended to confer a benefit should be liberally construed in favor in the clearly intended and expressly designated beneficiary" (You are the Beneficiary of the US Constitution). Also, I've proved it with plenty of cases.

    Wow.. Again you contradicted yourself. I feel so proud. ;D
     
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    Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60: "Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void."

    Wouldn't a statute eliminating licenses violate our common right to a safe environment as well as common reason - thus making it null and void? You miss out the government's ability to restrain our rights, it's in the Fifth Amendment to the USC:

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

    The key here is due process - you need a good reason for your rights to be infringed on, but the constitution doesn't rule out the infringement of rights altogether. Martial law is a severe infringement of civil rights, but it has been declared in the US in the past. The same occurs under a state of emergency. Similarly, the constitution allows governments to take away your property, so long as they compensate you afterwards.

    As for the article, that's what he thinks, and yes he happens to agree with you, that rights cannot be infringed absolutely. But a great man once said:

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

    Some of us believe that in certain scenarios, for the sake of a usually common purpose, individuals' rights should be curtailed. The constitution has provisions that allows this to occur, there's not much more to say.
     
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    Please see: 16AmJur2d., Sec. 98: "While an emergency can not create power and no emergency justifies the violation of any of the provisions of the United States Constitution or States Constitutions. Public emergency such as economic depression for especially liberal construction of constitutional powers and it has been declared that because of national emergency, it is the policy of the courts of times of national peril, so liberally to construed the special powers vested in the chief executive as to sustain an effectuate the purpose there of, and to that end also more liberally to construed the constituted division and classification of the powers of the coordinate branches of the government and in so far as may not be clearly inconsistent with the constitution." (No emergency has just cause to suppress the constitution.)

    A law cannot be passed on the speculation of future hazards. Its like saying they sould ban junk food because it could become a health hazard. And exactly, Due Process is a must, but on an individual level, not a societal level. We are a Republic of Individual Rights.
     
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    A license is a must have to ensure than the person driving the car is well suited to do such.

    I do not have a license. Why is that? Because I cannot drive a car. I have tried, multiple times. i am incapable of driving a motorized vehicles for reasons I do not feel like sharing. To say that it should not matter if you have a license or not or that a license is not needed to prove merit of credibility that you do know how to operate a motorized vehicle is the DUMBEST thing I have EVER heard.

    Yes, put someone like me who is completely incapable of driving behind the wheel. You are asking me to slaughter many people as well as myself. There are idiots who think they can drive but have never taken time to formally put this to the test and learn the correct method to drive.

    It is a necessary requirement to ensure the safety of not only yourself but to those around you. If you put me behind the wheel without a license somebody WILL die, myself or otherwise.

    Now how can I be held accountable for this if I should survive. I know full well I cannot drive, but without a license or punishment to go through for lack of there of, there would be no reason to condemn my completely negligible act. I may know I cannot drive, but I can easily fake innocence should an issue arise with something like this. Thanks to there being no law that states regisered drivers should have some form of licensing and no reason to take formal classes, the law could do nothing to condemn myself or other like individuals because there is nothing to dictate the safety of driving.

    To even argue such rights against licensing is pretty stupid in its own rights. You are asking for more accidents. You are asking for more deaths. You want to put inexperienced people behind the wheel. The idea is completely stupid. I can't believe you can even argue something like this.


    Right to travel as mentioned does not have anything to do with a license. I can travel by bus, and have done so many times without license. I can travel across state without the need of a license. I can walk or ride my bike to various places without the need to own a license. The license is a regulation system to monitor driving capable people and punish those who are too irresponsible to keep their licensing.
     
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    I just noted that there are provisions for the infringement of rights with due process within the constitution itself. If you read the amendment, you'll notice that none of what we're saying is against the constitution at all. Furthermore, it is your own call that due process cannot apply at a societal level. The 5th Amendment makes no such reference.

    Also, what you quoted there isn't from American Jurisprudence 2nd Edition, it's what some dude said - and most of the sentences don't even make sense. I think the actual text can be found here: https://freedom-school.com/law/amjur-constlaw-97.pdf, and it's giving tips for how to interpret the constitution in terms of whether it can be self-executing without any further laws.
     

    Silais

    That useless reptile
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    In my opinion, operating a car is a privilege, NOT a right. You are in the driver's seat of a vehicle that is potentially dangerous or life-threatening when not used correctly. There are many ways to travel; not being able to drive is not an obstruction of your right to move freely within your own country. Trains, subways, walking, bicycling, airplanes, even hitching a ride from someone else; all of these options are available should you not have a driver's license.
     
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    Again, if I travel without a license in my automobile, how does that directly affect you? If I don't present a danger to you or your property directly, how am I violating your Rights? What crime have I comitted? If you're incapable of using an automobile, then don't use one, plain and simple. I'm not just going to jump in a semi without knowing how to properly use it, but I do, however, know how to use an automobile up to the size of a dully truck. No victim, no crime.
     
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    Again, if I travel without a license in my automobile, how does that directly affect you? If I don't present a danger to you or your property directly, how am I violating your Rights? What crime have I comitted? If you're incapable of using an automobile, then don't use one, plain and simple. I'm not just going to jump in a semi without knowing how to properly use it, but I do, however, know how to use an automobile up to the size of a dully truck. No victim, no crime.

    Without a license to dictate if you are qualified how do you justify the bolded statement? Without a license no one has to know how to use an automobile. NO ONE because there is no requirement to do so. You are contradicting your very own argument just by arguing this idiotic rant.

    How do you justify knowing how to properly use a vehicle when there is no official documentation stating you have gone through proper procedures and have learned how to operate the said machinery? Did you ever stop to think out your posts? Stop. Re read everything you said and realize just how dumb this entire argument is.


    Without the License there is no way to verify if someone knows how to operate the vehicle. There would be no proof that you know how. If you did not have a license there is no proof that you know how to drive. You cannot even properly prove that you know how to use it. There will be victims with no crimes if there are no licenses. With licenses there are crimes with no victims because you choose to go about it with no license or expired ones.

    I know I cannot drive because I HAVE BEEN TESTED AND HAVE FAILED MULTIPLE TIMES. If this procedure did not exist I WOULD NOT KNOW THAT I WAS INCAPABLE OF DRIVING AND WOULD HAVE KILLED MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE. Cause yes, when I first tried I was so excited. I couldn't wait to get behind the wheel, as are many people who first learn to drive. I LEARNED that I am incapable of driving due to handicaps that I may or may not overcome.

    There is a great risk to everyone's lives if this system did not exist.
     
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