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Blue Angel

Living for now
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    Yeahhh...that's pretty much my feeling on it too.

    But I once got told off in a review for My Name Is Fuega (this was on SPPf, by the way) for not describing the appearance of a Vulpix, an Eevee, and an Absol. Oh, and a Zangoose. I added some description for the PC release, but...I thought it was a bit silly, seeing how this is a POKEMON forum...-_-; It's like having to describe what a tree looks like. Or a cat. Or a snake.

    I am kind of on the fence here.
    I don't know what I should think.
    I mean, describing Pokemon is good, but is it necessary?
    I would ask that as a question, but it has kind of been covered on this page.

    But, those of you who feel like it hasn't been covered enough, or have more opinions they would like to state on this matter, click the spoiler button:
    Spoiler:
     

    Sunnybeam

    when the sky is bright
  • 544
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    • Seen Jun 9, 2011
    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?
    To a point. Not down to the last hair, like you would for an original character, but the mental image should be pretty clear.

    With Pokemon, it's easier to describe as you go along, rather than describing the character as a whole. For example...(using Fuega here)

    Nearby, a small orange lizard watched its Trainer as its flame-tipped tail twitched back and forth.

    Growling under its breath, the mongoose uncurled and stretched its limbs, flexing its blade-like claws. Its ears and tail twitched briefly, and it turned to the man with strangely blank eyes.

    A rust-brown Vulpix was softly calling out comforting words to the more distressed captives, his six tails twitching in mild worry.

    It may just be personal preference, but I find description through action to be much easier than static description.
     

    Elite Overlord LeSabre™

    On that 'Non stop road'
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    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?
    I used to think so but I've realized the errors of my ways.

    Sprinkle in brief bits of description here and there. Do the "wall of description" only if the Pokemon plays a MAJOR role or is different than normal (shiny, injured). And this is something I wish I had been told early on in my writing :/

    And don't post on Sppf if you follow this advice. The most prominent (but certainly not the best) "reviewers" there demand description of everything.
     

    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?

    It may just be personal preference, but I find description through action to be much easier than static description.

    I completely agree.

    To answer the question, yes.

    I'm just going to quote myself here:
    Description is a finicky thing. If you have too much then the story becomes long and boring. It makes it fees like you are reading a text book. However, if you don't have enough, it makes the story seem in low quality, and makes you look like a noob. So either way, you have to find the perfect balance.
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
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    Man I type slow. The conversation went on as I responded XD

    That's all right. Five people posted while I was working on the first response. XD

    The fact is, I try to make it possible for a complete stranger to read my stuff even though it is fanfiction. I guess that may never happen, but I do post some of my writing on deviantART and the like.

    Well, even there, if it's labeled a Pokemon fanfiction, chances are, your readers will be Pokemon fans. And if they aren't, then they'll be very, very confused by the fundamentals anyway (as I've mentioned about ShutterBox), so you might as well just assume your readers are other fans.

    By the way, absolutely none of my human characters are from the canon.

    It's completely okay to describe something they wouldn't know but not something they would. As was brought up by Aqua, describing something pretty well-known would be like describing what a tree looks like. Unless there's something significant about the tree, you could just say there's a tree there.

    Otherwise, by this logic, you've got to describe everything, including what ordinary objects (like trees) are.

    I got the line today form dark somebody*, and I that's when I realized how little I have to work on. I now know that this is going to be funny as hell. I have no idea what happens before me and I have to write a page on something I don't even know about. This is going to be a murder of a fiction. I guess that's why they call it a corpse.

    Exactly. *thumbs up* Can't wait to see what it looks like at the end. ^_^

    But I once got told off in a review for My Name Is Fuega (this was on SPPf, by the way) for not describing the appearance of a Vulpix, an Eevee, and an Absol.

    *facepalm* From what I understand, while the fanfics on SPPf are okay (although they get their fair share of bad ones too, just like everyone else), the advice tends to be mind-boggling in a number of cases. Speaking from experience as well here. One of the few bad reviews I've gotten in years was from SPPf... and it didn't actually tell me anything except the reviewer thinks I shouldn't dapple in parody for an unspecified reason. (lolwut?)

    And even then, when it comes to reviewers, you'll want to take a good, hard look at everything everyone's (reviewers, standards of writing, et cetera) saying on top of what a particular review says, regardless of where it's from. Every fiction community has its WTF-worthy reviewers.

    Seriously, describing an Eevee? Why?

    In any case, I wouldn't go as extreme as describing things as if you would to a blind person (not because they wouldn't know what things look like but instead because that would lead you to describing everything anyway), but to someone who doesn't know what something looks like? Maybe. Even then, it's okay to give them only a vague idea of what something looks like. As hypocritical as this might sound (because I tend to overdescribe too), you'll want to focus on the important details and forget all the unnecessary stuff. Take up the Chekov's Law version of describing things. That is, describe (or at least emphasize) details that you want your reader to focus especially on.

    For example, Harry Potter's green eyes. We know a few other things about him (black, messy hair and thick glasses), but Rowling didn't offer too many other details beyond that. However, the green eyes she emphasized like whoa. So, in the end, the readers had a vague idea of what Harry looked like, but they thought the green eyes were especially important.

    Or, at least, have that kind of mindset. If you're like me, setting lower restrictions makes you want to overdo things anyway. *shrug*
     

    bobandbill

    one more time
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    IMO it's a matter of opinion, and also comes down to your writing style. But generally I think some description is good - when relavent. If it's an important character, or so forth, definately use some while using actions in the description, to also give some information about the Pokemon's personality. If you merntion a Pokemon in passing-by or so forth however, it ain't really needed. Depends on the situation and all.

    As for the whole attitude over description of Pokemon on Serebii - yeah, some people there are a tad overly crazy about that. Although oddly the first call I got for some more description for Pokemon was on another forum... o-O
    Heh, also reminds me about a fun little piece in Bay's parody fic which had them arguing over description at one point. (Post a quote, Bay!)

    EDIT: Hurrah for multiple people posting before me. Probably shouldn't do 5 things at once...
     

    Sunnybeam

    when the sky is bright
  • 544
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    • Seen Jun 9, 2011
    ...I can't wait till I get the corpse. :D

    Yeah, the description thing really threw me...the guy gave me 'A's in all other categories (he especially liked my characters), then threw this curve ball about description...I'd quote him if SPPf's load time wasn't so freakin' SLOW, but I think I can paraphrase...

    "What if your reader didn't know what a Zangoose looked like?"

    ...Huh?

    I was happy to get the review, 'cause I like criticism, and I'll admit I did have some problems with description. But...not that much. ^^;
     

    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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    Seriously, describing an Eevee? Why?

    good description I found on Eevee:

    fic on serebii said:
    The shining beam uncovered a small, shivering, foxlike creature huddling into itself. Frightened black eyes stared up at the man as she started to struggle to lift herself from the rocky ground. As she made her way to her feet, it was easier to see the rest of her features; ragged yet bushy fur made up both her tail and a sort of mane around her neck, and her coat was unkempt from lack of grooming.

    Spoiler:
     

    JX Valentine

    Your aquatic overlord
  • 3,277
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    Yeah, the description thing really threw me...the guy gave me 'A's in all other categories (he especially liked my characters), then threw this curve ball about description...I'd quote him if SPPf's load time wasn't so freakin' SLOW, but I think I can paraphrase...

    "What if your reader didn't know what a Zangoose looked like?"

    Mmm. Crack.

    Seriously, yeah. If your reader doesn't know what a Zangoose looks like, then you're probably better off assuming your reader doesn't know what a Pokemon is in the first place.

    As for the A's, kinda sounds like the kid's trying to be Frostweaver. (That is, I am amused.) Unless he is. At which point, Christ, I thought Frostweaver wasn't that anal. O_o

    Edit: Lengthy description =/= good description, kcander. This description is good because it describes the state of the Eevee, not what it looks like. Notice the frightened eyes and the ragged coat. The reader isn't told what the Eevee looks like. Rather, that this Eevee has been abused, which is the point.
     

    bobandbill

    one more time
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    it just me, or is Serebii really freaking slow?
    Recently it's been rather slow, and especially now. It was quite good not so long ago - better than here actually for most times. But now it's been rather laggy, what with double posts happening as well.

    @fic exerpt - BladedScizor's 'Mastering a New Start' fic, right? And Jax is right - as I mentioned - use description with actions to also get something else accross, such as personality, or the state of the Eevee.
     

    Bay

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    DarkPersian:Don't worry, I wished so too. ^^;

    Aqua: I think I know whom you're talking about...XD



    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?


    Eh, I'll say it's good to describe it a bit but not everything as it'll slow the story down and everyone in the Pokemon fandom pretty much knows how the Pokemon look like.

    And yeah, bobandbill is right that I did mention something in my parody of describing Pokemon:

    As everyone stared at the man's drawing pad, he first wrote two names:

    Chimchar

    Eevee


    "I think that's enough!" Damon insisted. "I think people will already know what those Pokémon look like."

    "No, I don't think so," Professor Rowan informed. "What if someone thinks a Chimchar is a lizard with a fire tip tail and an Eevee a Digimon? Jack, maybe do a black and white sketch of them."

    Jack nodded and then sketched Eevee and Chimchar.

    "I think that should be good," Professor Rowan praised with a smile.

    "Hold on, not yet!" protested Destiny. "There should be color! What if someone will confuse an Eevee with a Vulpix? Also, that would probably make someone think that Pokémon is a shiny, and everyone hates it when someone has a shiny."

    "I don't think anyone will confuse the Pokémon," Duku countered. "Pretty much everyone here will know what kind of species an Eevee is, even without color." He then began pointing at the various black and white sketches. "See, that's a Poliwag, that's a Hypno, that's an Arcanine, and that's a Porygon."

    "Well, you may know those Pokémon, but what if someone else doesn't."

    Duku chuckled. "I doubt so."

    Destiny felt her heart pounding faster and faster. For a second she thought steam came out from her ears.

    "Can too!"

    "Cannot!"

    "Can too!"

    "Cannot!"

    "Can too!"

    Eyes twitching and feeling like he was having a headache, Jack shouted, "Okay, ENOUGH! Am tired of the argument on how much detail I should put on the Pokémon. I'll just leave the picture like this and that's that!"

    Had fun writing this one. XD

    Urgh, I wished I didn't write a full blown description of Tropius in NE as he doesn't have any unique features and the like. On the other hand, he's an important Pokemon. Heck, he pratically saved the girls' butts in Chapter 10. XD

    EDIT: GAH, forgot to edit out James and change the name to Jack in one of the sentences. XD Fixed it though! ^^
     
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    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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    Edit: Lengthy description =/= good description, kcander. This description is good because it describes the state of the Eevee, not what it looks like. Notice the frightened eyes and the ragged coat. The reader isn't told what the Eevee looks like. Rather, that this Eevee has been abused, which is the point.

    I see your point, so just have every pokemon in bad shape. j/k

    @fic exerpt - BladedScizor's 'Mastering a New Start' fic, right?

    Yes it is.
     

    Sunnybeam

    when the sky is bright
  • 544
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    • Seen Jun 9, 2011
    Aqua: I think I know whom you're talking about...XD

    Air Dragon? Funnily enough, he accidentally posted his review of Burnt Flower's Maggots of Society on Fuega before replacing it with the right one. Freaked the living Entei outta me. o.O

    Had fun writing this one. XD

    -snicker- That was funny.

    Reposting fics from other sites is boring. -yawn- I had to redo all of the formatting...can't wait till I get PC Fuega up to speed.
     

    Bay

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    Hehe, thanks for thinking that quote was funny. XD

    Also, no. ^^; Thinking of someone else, but I won't mention him as I think he's been talked about a lot already. XD
     

    Negrek

    Am I more than you bargained for yet?
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    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?

    Warning! tl;dr off the forward bow!

    The thing with description is that it has to serve a purpose. Description is a tool that writers use to highlight things of note or to influence the atmosphere of a piece. Typically, if something is described in-depth, it's the author doing the equivalent of saying, "Hey, look here! This is important! Pay attention!"

    The problem is, that when many people talk about "describing pokémon," they're talking about giving a blow-by-blow on a pokémon's physical makeup. This would be appropriate in some situations, but in general it isn't, and here's why: the character in any pokémon 'fic would be expected to be familiar with his world's native fauna, and therefore he or she wouldn't give any passing pokémon more than a cursory glance. If there was something unusual about a pokémon's appearance, they might notice it; otherwise, they're not going to dwell on the physical characteristics of the beast unless they've decided they need to inspect it for some reason.

    Description is very important. Description in the terms of what most people on these boards consider it to be--talking about what something looks like in detail--is often not, and indeed can be quite a hindrance to a reader's understanding and enjoyment. Let's have a couple of examples. This is the sort of thing that most people seem to mean when they talk about "describing pokémon":

    The gecko-like creature stood about three feet tall, and its body was covered in a layer of fine, glimmering green scales. A long, tapering leaf sprouted from the back of its head, and further leaves adorned its wrists and rump. Its underbelly was a striking ruby hue, and its eyes were yellow.

    This, as I hope even the people who advocate such "description of pokémon" would tell you, is an absolutely sucky passage. They'd say (or at least, I hope they would), that the pokémon shouldn't just be standing there while the narrator discusses its physical characteristics; that's boring, and it wrenches the reader out of the flow of the story in order so that the narrator can drone for a few sentences about grovyle before diving back into the action.

    And it gets worse! Sometimes, overzealous writers will go so overboard in talking about a pokémon that you won't even be able to tell what it is when they're done with it! Observe:

    The creature was bipedal and stocky, with thick, powerful paws banded with heavy black rings. A layer of thin, fuchsia fur covered its vaguely pear-shaped form, and two beady black eyes stared out from its squashed face, which was framed by floppy ears like isosceles triangles with the tops cut off. Jutting lower teeth, the same strange purple, overtopped another heavy black ring about the creature's neck.
    I'll admit to being far worse at obfuscation than many of the authors here, but I hope you'll see my point in that this "description" is puzzling rather than helpful when it comes to determining a pokémon's species.

    So what is "good" description, then? Well, what if the author wants to talk about what a pokémon looks like but doesn't just sit there and list qualities of it--or at least, doesn't make the listing so blatant?

    The gecko-like creature hissed, showing tiny teeth like a forest of little razors. Its yellow eyes flicked between the travelers, and then it leaped from the branch overhead, flaring the leaves on its wrists as it soared across to the tree opposite. Jerry caught a flash of brilliant red underbelly as the pokémon passed overhead, the leaf on its head streaming in the wind, before it hit the far tree trunk with a heavy thump and clung on with its fingers and toes. It scuttled up the side of the tree a couple of feet before vanishing into a cluster of foliage, its green scales blending perfectly with the leaves.

    There are times when such a passage might be appropriate if one wanted to introduce a grovyle to one's 'fic. However, remember that every word in a piece of writing should ideally serve a purpose, and those that don't should get cut. Description is all about conveying information--telling the reader what is important, guiding them to see what you want them to see in a particular passage. Let's have a look at what our two examples thus far tell us before seeing one more, what I would call the "correct" way to describe a pokémon.

    First, our list-y description. What point does it eventually get across? That the pokémon we're looking at is a grovyle. Also apparently one that's sitting still and doing nothing while the narrator considers its virtues, but that's already been covered.

    The description above is a little more complex. The reader should, hopefully, still get that, "Oh, that's a grovyle!" The passage does a little more than that, though. It lets us know that the grovyle's hostile towards humans, or at least towards this "Jerry"--at the least, it doesn't seem too friendly, even if it doesn't outright attack him. It also establishes a sort of wild, feral atmosphere. Grovyle is canonically an extremely rare pokémon, so one would imagine that Jerry must be deep in the wilderness, perhaps even somewhere unexplored, if he's going to be encountering grovyle in their natural habitat.

    Before I tie all this together, let's see how I think people should go about describing pokémon:

    The grovyle tilted its head to the side and chirped, yellow eyes inquisitive. Its scales were scuffed and hidden here and there under patches of mud and dust, and there was an irregular bite taken out of the leaf on its head, but though its crooked grin showed a few missing teeth, grin it did, and if it had had a tail, Jerry had the feeling it would be wagging like mad.

    Now, again, let's examine what this passage conveys. First of all, yes, it's a grovyle--though here it's actually just named, which immediately conjures up a complete grovyle image in the mind of the reader. Moreso than that, though, it's a grovyle that's apparently fallen on some rough times. It's got a bite taken out of the leaf on its head and it's a bit dirty, not to mention that it's got a few holes in its smile. Moreso than that, though, this passage gives you a fair amount of insight into the grovyle's personality, or at least what it's projecting to Jerry as its personality. It's definitely friendly, and its manner also seems a bit inquisitive, perhaps even slightly eccentric--its smile is described as "crooked," for example, and it seems to be acting a little odd for a grovyle; it even reminds Jerry of a dog, to some extent, which brings on further connotations of playfulness, loyalty, and so on.

    That's a lot, coming from so short a passage. What's more, it reveals more than just what the pokémon looks like, and instead focuses more on the way it behaves. By calling the pokémon a "grovyle," the text immediately gives the reader a basic idea of what to work with, then goes about describing ways in which this particular grovyle is different than others, rather than rehashing what the readers--or at least the story's protagonist--already know and wouldn't ordinarily think about, instead considering the archetypal image of a grovyle that they have already acquired through exposure to canon.

    This is why professional authors, or at least the good ones, can often get away without giving a blow-by-blow description of their character's physical appearance. In fact, the really good ones can do so so subtly that the reader never realizes that the image they have of that person in their head is constructed almost entirely from elements of that character's personality that their brain has associated with particular physical traits. This is because what a character looks like usually isn't important--rather, it's who they are that is the concern of the reader. You don't sympathize with a character because they have the same color eyes as you do, but rather because you feel connected with that character through their emotions and personality traits.

    Therefore, physical description is usually only used in order to "point out" elements of a character's personality. A person's hair color could be described, but usually only if it somehow relates to an underlying theme of the novel that plays off color to an extent or to draw on our understanding of the connotations different hair colors usually have for a character's personality. Consider, though, what you might be able to tell about a character given their hairstyle. What if their hair was messy and unkempt? What if it was done up in a style that was popular twenty years ago? What would you decide about their character then?

    Thus, character description is usually less about getting at the "what" than it is about getting at the "who."

    But what about my saying that the second grovyle passage was okay "in some cases?" That talks almost exclusively about the pokémon's physical appearance, so why is it okay?

    Because the purpose of that passage is NOT to describe the grovyle. Instead, the information it presents says more about the human character, Jerry, than it does about the beast itself (besides what was already noted). But how is that possible, given that the entire passage is about the grovyle, and the (presumably) human character is identified only briefly and by name?

    First of all, it suggests that he might be unfamiliar with grovyle. Think about it. When you see a lizard, are you thinking to yourself, "Oh, it's a small, scaly quadruped with a long, slender tail. It has eyes on the sides of its head and clawed feet. It's blue with black spots." Probably not, unless you've never seen a lizard before in your life. Upon registering the creature, you're instead going to think, "Oh, it's a blue lizard with black spots."

    The care with which the grovyle's physical appearance is detailed in the passage suggests that Jerry is trying to figure out what it is. Instead of immediately jumping to grovyle, his mind is listing down notable traits and starting to cross-reference them with his knowledge of other species--geckos, perhaps. And, because this is the pokémon world, his unfamiliarity suggests several things--perhaps that this is an alternate universe fiction, where many of the pokémon species with which we're familiar are unknown. Perhaps Jerry lives somewhere cut off from the majority of the world, where grovyle is a fairly well-recognized species. Maybe he just slept through most of his biology/pokémonology classes and doesn't pay much attention to stuff about pokémon. For one reason or another, his mind doesn't skip immediately to "grovyle" when he sees one, and the narrator therefore has to point out details that will make us think "grovyle," even if Jerry doesn't.

    There's another possible explanation, too. If you've ever had a cat suddenly dart out from the bushes next to you and run across your path, you'll probably have experienced a reaction similar to, "Small furry very fast thing dark-colored doesn't look like it's coming at me--oh, okay, it's just a cat." Fear is great at sharpening the senses, and when we're startled our brains usually run into overdrive, picking up all the details about something that we might otherwise just glance at and dismiss as unimportant. If Jerry were just surprised by the grovyle, it would probably take him a couple of seconds to realize what it actually was, as the passage makes it sound like it was moving relatively fast, and for a moment his brain would just be pulling in data, not synthesizing it. If that were the case, the next paragraph would probably start with some comment referring to that creature as a grovyle, rather than being a paragraph in which Jerry considers that "weird thing" he saw up in the trees. This would convey the fact that he's on edge, wary, and uncertain in this environment. The description of the grovyle, therefore, isn't so much important because it tells the reader that the pokémon is a grovyle, but because it helps to convey the skittish nature of the protagonist, as well as, perhaps, let the reader feel a little bit of his unease. It's primarily atmosphere, and perhaps a little characterization for Jerry, depending on the circumstances, that this descriptive passage serves to illuminate.

    So, that paragraph could be saying a lot--but relatively little of it has to do with the grovyle itself! In fact, the pokémon itself is probably unimportant, and if it does end up returning for any reason, it will probably receive further description detailing its purpose in the story.

    In the end, I would encourage you to describe pokémon. In fact, I would say that it's vital, even if you don't treat them as human-like characters; the fact that they're not being treated like beings with human intelligence, after all, is just the sort of thing you need to get at through a description of the creature's behavior. But please, don't sit there and describe what color a pokémon is and what, in general, it looks like, unless this is somehow unusual or otherwise furthers the story in one way or another. It's perfectly kosher to just say, "The trainer had a magneton," if there's nothing remarkable about said pokémon.

    Hopefully, that post will help to explicate what I was saying to txteclipse earlier (no, definitely not more description!). Rereading it shows me that there's a lot wrong with it still, but I think it provides a general outline of my philosophy on description.
     
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    txteclipse

    The Last
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    Yeah...I found the source of my confusion. It sounded like logic at the time...

    Also, you did not describe Weavile in one bit. Sneasel, yeah: just the hook-shaped claws, though. You have to pretend we don't know what these pokemon look like, and describe them.

    That's probably what threw me off. Actually, I still would like to describe the pokemon at least a little bit, but I'll certainly tone it down (I had some paragraph-long superlists describing a few pokes in an earlier chapter).
     

    Buoysel

    Trust me, I'm a Professional*
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    Do you think that describing Pokemon in Fan Fiction is a necessity?

    I tl;dr'd that question quite recently, actually.

    Hopefully, that post will help to explicate what I was saying to txteclipse earlier (no, definitely not more description!). Rereading it shows me that there's a lot wrong with it still, but I think it provides a general outline of my philosophy on description.

    At first I was like, ah man, a serebii link, but then I was all like, whoa.

    You sure are long winded, but very good. Would have taken me an hour to type all that.

    You could have just copied and pasted it.


    I had some paragraph-long superlists describing a few pokes in an earlier chapter
    You mean like the Lati's hatching?
     
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    Negrek

    Am I more than you bargained for yet?
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    At first I was like, ah man, a serebii link, but then I was like, whoa.

    You sure are long winded, but very good. Would have taken me an hour to type all that.
    Copying and pasting honestly didn't occur to me, but I think I'll do that for convenience now (seeing as Serebii is slow and all).

    And it did take about an hour and a half to write up. =/

    Edit: Oh, and tip for Aqua059--if you're going to be reposting something you've put up on forums elsewhere, don't bother redoing the format each time. After you've got it formatted and looking nice the place you're putting it up first, just post it and then hit the edit button. You can just copy the formatting with the text when you go to paste it into the thread creator for whatever place you're putting the next copy up.

    Unless you do that anyway and the formatting just went and died on you in this particular instance.
     
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