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Fidel Castro dead at 90

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    I dunno what Trudeau was thinking, most people view Castro in a negative light so this may hurt his popularity.

    I think both of those responses were one-sided, although Trump's and Pence's were definitely worse (although that's not surprising considering America still lives in the Red Scare whilst most of the world has moved on). On the one had, Trudeau is all but completely ignoring the horrors of Castro's regime whilst on the other Trump and Pence are ignoring all the positive things he did - you know like creating healthcare ad education systems superior to the US with access to far less money. Hell, in part of the Trump article it actually looked like Castro was being criticized for the positive things he did. Basically both of them are idiots.

    It bothers me that people are so incapable of seeing anything outside of a black and white perspective. I don't see why we can't condemn him for violence and celebrate the positive changes he made at the same time.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    About 100,000 died because of Fidel Castro. )

    That's a right wing estimate. Others have it as low as 10,000 (as this is the actual confirmed number, and not the 'estimate' that the West decided)

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html

    Conversely we know of at least 500,000 who died because of Bush/Blair. If we want to simplify things we can say that Castro was known to be responsible for 10,000 deaths in Cuba, whereas US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are both sitting on 250,000 dead Iraqis each.

    This whole anti Castro sentiment only really exists because we were told to hate him because he's a "dirty stinkin' Red". Was he infallible? Of course not, he done some pretty trashy things, but every US president during his tenure, with the exception of Kennedy and Carter, have overseen far worse than Castro did. That of course includes the ridiculous trade embargo which was designed to starve the Cuban people into submission (perhaps Obama's greatest legacy will be his attempt to undo some of the damage from this). This idea, this lie that Castro was somehow this evil monster despite his accomplishments in improving/implementing healthcare, education and (although a minor increase) the economy all whilst fighting off US efforts of subterfuge, sabotage and outright state funded and organised murder of a head of state of another country and whilst juggling the most economically crippling embargo in modern times that was designed solely to starve the Cuban people into submission is frankly wearing very thin now.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_upon_Fidel_Castro

    It's worth noting that only America and her puppet satellite friends seems to have this ridiculously skewed and bias view on Castro, the developing world loved him and saw him as a beacon of hope who not only managed to smash a US imposed Military dictator who gave free run of the country to gangsters and forced what was essentially slave labour on the people, but also turned a failing Banana republic into a country that, whilst still poor, was wildly better off than it had been and was able to stand on it's own two feet despite having the biggest economic power in the world trying to rip it apart for six decades straight,
     

    Shamol

    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
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    If you want me to be really succinct- Castro was a huge mixed bag, and we should remember him as such. On one hand, horrible repressive communist dictator, cracked down on dissenting voices, and until recently there was no such thing as a private industry in Cuba. On the other, 99% literacy rate, universal healthcare, and Cuba is now a doctor-churning machine.

    Kyle Kulinski had a rather nuanced segment on this issue, I think it's worth a listen:



    Also, "he was a fascist and hence deserves condemnation" is somewhat ironic coming from the US- the government had no problem propping up dictators and questionable governments when it benefited them. Two examples particularly relevant are the South African apartheid (a conflict where Castro sided with Mandela) and Cuba's Fulgencio Batista, who Castro came to replace.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
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    That's a right wing estimate. Others have it as low as 10,000 (as this is the actual confirmed number, and not the 'estimate' that the West decided)

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html

    Conversely we know of at least 500,000 who died because of Bush/Blair. If we want to simplify things we can say that Castro was known to be responsible for 10,000 deaths in Cuba, whereas US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are both sitting on 250,000 dead Iraqis each.

    This whole anti Castro sentiment only really exists because we were told to hate him because he's a "dirty stinkin' Red". Was he infallible? Of course not, he done some pretty trashy things, but every US president during his tenure, with the exception of Kennedy and Carter, have overseen far worse than Castro did. That of course includes the ridiculous trade embargo which was designed to starve the Cuban people into submission (perhaps Obama's greatest legacy will be his attempt to undo some of the damage from this). This idea, this lie that Castro was somehow this evil monster despite his accomplishments in improving/implementing healthcare, education and (although a minor increase) the economy all whilst fighting off US efforts of subterfuge, sabotage and outright state funded and organised murder of a head of state of another country and whilst juggling the most economically crippling embargo in modern times that was designed solely to starve the Cuban people into submission is frankly wearing very thin now.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_upon_Fidel_Castro

    It's worth noting that only America and her puppet satellite friends seems to have this ridiculously skewed and bias view on Castro, the developing world loved him and saw him as a beacon of hope who not only managed to smash a US imposed Military dictator who gave free run of the country to gangsters and forced what was essentially slave labour on the people, but also turned a failing Banana republic into a country that, whilst still poor, was wildly better off than it had been and was able to stand on it's own two feet despite having the biggest economic power in the world trying to rip it apart for six decades straight,

    You can't really dampen my argument for using "right-wing estimates" and then use a Huffington Post article. (although coincidently I am totally 100% against the Iraq War)

    And other president's acts dont somehow make Castro's okay. And I never actually defended those presidents? I dont really see your point here considering I severely dislike the Bush's.

    Of course the developing world saw him as a beacon of hope: he was anti-imperialist during the Cold War.

    And Castro hardly stood alone- he received massive aid from the USSR.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    You can't really dampen my argument for using "right-wing estimates" and then use a Huffington Post article. (although coincidently I am totally 100% against the Iraq War)

    And other president's acts dont somehow make Castro's okay. And I never actually defended those presidents? I dont really see your point here considering I severely dislike the Bush's.

    Of course the developing world saw him as a beacon of hope: he was anti-imperialist during the Cold War.

    And Castro hardly stood alone- he received massive aid from the USSR.

    Well when one is an estimate that's 10x higher than the actual known figure and the other is a straight known figure I think, in this case, i can use the HuffPost.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=i...0.69i59j0l5.5087j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    Feel free to take your pick though if you don't want to count the HP.

    In regards to the USSR thing, so what? So what if he traded some sugar for fuel? How would you of kept your rapidly collapsing country afloat when the then world super power was blocking you trade with just about every big trader there is? Castro attempted to approach the Americans in early 1960 but was refused a meeting with Eisenhower. Such was Castro's interest in reaching an amicable peace with the Americans that Khrushchev's people genuinely believed him to be in cahoots with the CIA (https://www.americanheritage.com/content/how-my-father-and-president-kenedy-saved-world is an interesting article, that also touches on this). Castro didn't turn to the USSR until after your lot refused him a fair hearing and increased the horrid embargo on the Cubans. So please don't whinge about him being in the arms of the USSR when you're the ones who pushed him there.

    Further to this, him making trade deals with the only power he could absolutely does not mean Cuba did not stand on it's own two feet. I mean, Casto's Cuba has outlived the USSR by nearly a quarter century now.

    Edit: Just realised I didn't address the comment about his negative actions not being any less bad just because Western leaders have done far worse in a far shorter timespan. That is true, Castro behaved awfully at times. But when people are highlighting him as some insane and noteworthy monster that was nothing short of pure evil, whilst not making the same public calls about their own countries and leaders it's kind of hypocritical. I mean, yes, for a while he was terrible to LBGT people, but then he completely decriminalised it in 1979, which is actually around 25 years (give or take) before the entirety of the USA decriminalised homosexuality. Yes he threw people into horrible labour camps, similar to how the US has had prisoners working lines for decades now. Yes he had political dissidents shot, a little like the 680+ times the USA tried to have Castro killed.

    Whatever way you want to spin it, Castro was no worse, and was in many cases a far better, human being and leader than his Western counterparts. No amount of post cold war McCarthyism can change that.
     
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    Desert Stream~

    Holy Kipper!
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    Oh, I thought Fidel Castro was one of those singers or something O_o
    Well, that's good to know.
     
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    I think you guys forgot one thing if you're praising Fidel Castro. Remember the 80's? No? The Mariel Boatlift? No? Okay, well then let me tell you a story of how Fidel Castro released about 80% of Cuba's criminals and boosted them to Miami and then bragged that he 'flushed the toilets' on America. Yeah. Cocaine, rape, murder, gun trafficking, drug trafficking, prostitution rings, kiddie porn rings, blackmail . . . a bunch of muck that the poor people of Miami had to deal with. Don't go praising Castro, he was partly responsible for the death boom regarding the drug market here in the states!
     
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    I think you guys forgot one thing if you're praising Fidel Castro. Remember the 80's? No? The Mariel Boatlift? No? Okay, well then let me tell you a story of how Fidel Castro released about 80% of Cuba's criminals and boosted them to Miami and then bragged that he 'flushed the toilets' on America. Yeah. Cocaine, rape, murder, gun trafficking, drug trafficking, prostitution rings, kiddie porn rings, blackmail . . . a bunch of muck that the poor people of Miami had to deal with. Don't go praising Castro, he was partly responsible for the death boom regarding the drug market here in the states!

    I see no reason to not praise him for the good he's done. I don't think anyone here is denying that he did some pretty terrible things but anything bad he did doesn't invalidate the good he also did.

    I'd like to see some sources on those claims too because it's the first I've heard of this particular issue.
     
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    I'd like to see some sources on those claims too because it's the first I've heard of this particular issue.

    On which? That he used the Mariel Boatlift to extradite criminals or the exact quote? Well, the quote is there, and if you know anything about Miami circa 1980, you'll know how bad it actually was. I suggest looking into it. That show, Netflix came up with? Narcos I think, is pretty self explanatory. Any of the big time shows or news about Miami in 1980 was pretty much always in a bad light. Miami Vide actually helped Miami's tourist count slowly tick back up after Times Magazine hailed it as the murder capital of the United States, and since folk here love to point out our little violence problem I'm sure it's not too hard to imagine. It was . . . what? Nearly 700 murders in a single year at some point? That's . . . a lot of dead bodies. They had to buy trucks from Burger King to store dead bodies in the freezer trucks. I think it was Burger King . . . I know it was freezer trucks though, I remember that much. Pretty gruesome, but fascinating stuff.

    The Cocaine boom was something else entirely, and Cuba had a hand in assisting that as well as dumping all of it's criminals on the US. Hey, look at it this way. Since I'm assuming you didn't know much about this topic, maybe it'll help shed some light as to why some people in the US are leery about taking in refugees, eh? Just thought it might share some perspective.

    Lots of links to look at, most have the same basic elements, but a quick run down of a few of them actually paint a clear picture. I don't think Castro had any redeeming qualities. Considering if you send all your criminals elsewhere . . . good for Cuba, maybe, bad for the US and left a huge scar on Florida. What, the queen of cocaine was shot four years ago? Goes to show you that if players in the cocaine game are still getting shot, then that means this Boatlift thing still has some lasting effects reaching into the 21st century.

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/castro-announces-mariel-boatlift
    https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article117215103.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/books/excerpt-miami-babylon.html
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-cuba-us-fears-castro-emptying-his-jails-into-florida-1386288.html
    https://www.politico.com/story/2009/04/castro-launches-mariel-boatlift-april-20-1980-021421
    https://adst.org/2015/04/a-flood-of-cuban-migrants-the-mariel-boatlift-april-october-1980/
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/mariel-boatlift.htm
    https://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/April/On-This-Day--Thousands-Authorized-to-Leave-Cuba-in-Mariel-Boatlift.html
    https://immigrationtounitedstates.org/453-cuban-immigrants.html
    https://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/the_mariel_boatlift_twenty_five_years_later/
     

    0

    Happy and at peace. :)
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    On which? That he used the Mariel Boatlift to extradite criminals or the exact quote? Well, the quote is there, and if you know anything about Miami circa 1980, you'll know how bad it actually was. I suggest looking into it. That show, Netflix came up with? Narcos I think, is pretty self explanatory. Any of the big time shows or news about Miami in 1980 was pretty much always in a bad light. Miami Vide actually helped Miami's tourist count slowly tick back up after Times Magazine hailed it as the murder capital of the United States, and since folk here love to point out our little violence problem I'm sure it's not too hard to imagine. It was . . . what? Nearly 700 murders in a single year at some point? That's . . . a lot of dead bodies. They had to buy trucks from Burger King to store dead bodies in the freezer trucks. I think it was Burger King . . . I know it was freezer trucks though, I remember that much. Pretty gruesome, but fascinating stuff.

    The Cocaine boom was something else entirely, and Cuba had a hand in assisting that as well as dumping all of it's criminals on the US. Hey, look at it this way. Since I'm assuming you didn't know much about this topic, maybe it'll help shed some light as to why some people in the US are leery about taking in refugees, eh? Just thought it might share some perspective.

    Lots of links to look at, most have the same basic elements, but a quick run down of a few of them actually paint a clear picture. I don't think Castro had any redeeming qualities. Considering if you send all your criminals elsewhere . . . good for Cuba, maybe, bad for the US and left a huge scar on Florida. What, the queen of cocaine was shot four years ago? Goes to show you that if players in the cocaine game are still getting shot, then that means this Boatlift thing still has some lasting effects reaching into the 21st century.

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/castro-announces-mariel-boatlift
    https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article117215103.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/books/excerpt-miami-babylon.html
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/criminals-in-exodus-from-cuba-us-fears-castro-emptying-his-jails-into-florida-1386288.html
    https://www.politico.com/story/2009/04/castro-launches-mariel-boatlift-april-20-1980-021421
    https://adst.org/2015/04/a-flood-of-cuban-migrants-the-mariel-boatlift-april-october-1980/
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/mariel-boatlift.htm
    https://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/April/On-This-Day--Thousands-Authorized-to-Leave-Cuba-in-Mariel-Boatlift.html
    https://immigrationtounitedstates.org/453-cuban-immigrants.html
    https://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/the_mariel_boatlift_twenty_five_years_later/
    Ah, I also forgot the reason why we in Florida really dislike the guy.

    Though tbh, he is really a mixed bag. At the end of the day most leaders are. Even presidents, like FDR were mixed bags, dictators like Hitler as well.

    But I totally forgot about the Miami thing. I wouldn't got to that shithole still, lol. Hate Miami.
     

    Thepowaofhax

    Spectre
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    While I don't necessarily agree with Communist dictatorships, looking through the sources provided by others does show some small positive light on him himself (although his definite human rights abuses definitely outweigh these positives). His uprising would've never happened anyways if America would've put in, oh I don't know, any form of Democracy?
     
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    Alright, but by the same token you can't really play it as Cuba being the bad guy and doing all these awful things to the US considering that the US was largely responsible for a lot of Cuba's economic problems, repeatedly tried to assassinate Castro (a foreign leader) like that's a totally okay thing to do and was happy to support the previous dictator simply because he wasn't a communist (all this ignoring the US' frequent interventions in other countries that tend to be a lot worse off post US compared to beforehand).

    Most of the reason people in the US hate Castro is because he's an "evil commie", because that is the sort of ridiculous propaganda that was spread in your country for decades. If you have more informed reasons that's fine, but most people aren't that politically or historically well-informed and just tally it up to "America good, communism bad".

    I just find it hard to see Castro as being much worse than a great deal of US governments over the years and quite frankly, probably better than several from my understanding. I don't agree with his methods and I certainly don't agree with undemocratic rule but looking at his crimes and his positives... really not any worse than the US over the years, at least not by nearly as wide a margin as people would have us all believe.
     
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    Alright, but by the same token you can't really play it as Cuba being the bad guy and doing all these awful things to the US considering that the US was largely responsible for a lot of Cuba's economic problems, repeatedly tried to assassinate Castro (a foreign leader) like that's a totally okay thing to do and was happy to support the previous dictator simply because he wasn't a communist (all this ignoring the US' frequent interventions in other countries that tend to be a lot worse off post US compared to beforehand).

    Most of the reason people in the US hate Castro is because he's an "evil commie", because that is the sort of ridiculous propaganda that was spread in your country for decades. If you have more informed reasons that's fine, but most people aren't that politically or historically well-informed and just tally it up to "America good, communism bad".

    I just find it hard to see Castro as being much worse than a great deal of US governments over the years and quite frankly, probably better than several from my understanding. I don't agree with his methods and I certainly don't agree with undemocratic rule but looking at his crimes and his positives... really not any worse than the US over the years, at least not by nearly as wide a margin as people would have us all believe.
    Let's sit back for a moment and analyze that statement. So, Fidel is a commie. Okay, personally, I don't care. Most of the people I know that dislike him didn't actually know he was communist but still detest him for being a dictator.

    Now, what I brought up is wholly valid and cannot be dismissed slight of hand. If you can show me, in US history, a leader of the United States exonerating 90% of the prisoners and shipping them on a boat to some other country, then maybe you had some grounds to argue that Castro wasn't such a bad guy; but due to the fact that he knew he was releasing these criminals, knew that the US government would be forced to accept them because there were genuine refugees mixed with a huge amount of bad and he knew the potential effects that would be caused by releasing such a large amount of murderers, rapists, sadists, killers, child molesters, etc.

    There is absolutely no defense for this. Which is worse, honestly? Can you really without a doubt, say that the US is bad and that Castro is good? Even knowing that the US accepted 100,000+ refugees from Cuba? What if, say, Theresa May decided to release all the prisoners in the UK and send them, along with anyone who wished to go, to Canada? Might be a poor example, but how else can you liken releasing known felons, known murderers, known rapists, child rapists, etc? How in ever would it be justified? Is it okay since the US is commiephobic? Would you be okay if someone did this to your country? Would it be alright if the US just said "here you go! Here are some people that hate it here in the US and . . . a few others"? I highly doubt you'd be okay with the influx of criminals and rampant crime.

    The cocaine boom spread from Miami and branched its way across the country, settling down in California, then heading back East.

    Also, I would point you in a couple directions to search. Fidel was actually a part of the cocaine business, if only for a while, and not some sort of saint. It went sort of like: Pablo Escobar wants to talk to Fidel > Gets an Ochoa to do it > Ochoa talks to Cuban Americans > Jorge Avandano > They reach out to Raul (Fidel's brother) > Who relays this to Fidel, who agrees.

    Now, this can all be attributed to hearsay, but it does ring more than a few alarms. Considering a Cuban ship was caught in April carting around cocaine is suspicion enough. A simple search of 'Cuba and cocaine' or 'Castro and Escobar' or 'Fidel Castro and cocaine' should prove this point.

    I would suggest digging more into the 1980's. Drug runners didn't avoid Cuba, in fact they flew through Cuba with governmental permissions even, as the US has little hold over Cuba and could not detect planes accurately from Columbia to Cuba. There's other sources out there to look into this topic as well. Several US statements including the FBI, several papers from Panama and news stations and Florida itself. With Columbia sitting directly south of Cuba, it isn't too hard to figure out that the one place that the US can't see too good is your best bet for smuggling. Considering that we are still finding massive quantities of cocaine being shipped from Cuba should tell us that more is going on.

    So, it's really up to you I suppose. Drug trafficker (with knowledge and acceptance) and negligent releaser of prisoners? Or just plain, old guy with a beard?

    This article is a transcript from interviews from former Cuban nationals with ties to and often employed by the Cuban government. There are several pieces like this, one only has to look.
    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/cubaandcocaine.html

    Edit:
    Alright, but by the same token you can't really play it as Cuba being the bad guy and doing all these awful things to the US considering that the US was largely responsible for a lot of Cuba's economic problems

    That's a dark parable, really. Swap Cuba with Germany and swap US with UK.
     
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    Except I've not once painted Castro as "the good guy" or just "the plain old guy with a beard". I'm just saying that the US, and to an extent the international, view of him has been largely influenced by anti-communist/anti-Cuba sentiments spread by US propaganda and that even now a lot of that sentiment remains even if nobody really knows why any more. It's a similar concept to institutionalized racism.

    I know full well that Castro did some fucked up things too. I do not in any way approve of things like dumping prisoners on foreign countries just to get them out of yours, I don't agree with political oppression and dictatorship and I don't agree with any form of government persecution. The fact he did bad things doesn't invalidate how much good he did for his country either though. He was leagues better than the previous leader (a US endorsed dictator), he improved civil liberties and the economy and drastically improved both the healthcare and education systems. Cuba has a better literacy rate than either of our countries despite spending a fraction of the money.

    You can't look at Castro as purely evil because that's just America-tinted glasses. He was, like all of us, a flawed individual. He did a lot of bad but he also did a lot of good. He was just much more polarized than your average person.

    That's a dark parable, really. Swap Cuba with Germany and swap US with UK.

    I think that those are pretty different situations. The UK didn't just insert itself into foreign politics the way the US is prone to and during the World Wars the UK and Germany were actively at war with one another - there's a whole host of issues differentiate the two situations. Assuming you're talking about Hitler though, the good things he did for Germany aren't any more invalidated by his evil either.
     
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    You can't look at Castro as purely evil because that's just America-tinted glasses. He was, like all of us, a flawed individual. He did a lot of bad but he also did a lot of good. He was just much more polarized than your average person.
    Regardless of the tint, he wasn't by far any better than I remember. I don't like Castro, not because he's a communist, but because he was a piece of shit. He was, unlike you or I, in a position to carry out atrocities against his own people and 'attacks' against the US in forms of drug trafficking. It's not to say that negating any 'good' is my goal, but at what point does one sit and say 'maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all'? Firing squads, forced labor camps, forced conscription, political prisoners and human rights violations, espionage, drug trafficking (as I showed earlier), murdered defenseless women and children, a ban of immigration, military intervention, hates the LGBT populace (three links), wanted to 'annihilate' the US with nuclear armament, religious oppression, and was a multimillionare while his people were starving. Hey, at least, you know, health care. Not to mention Cuban exiles themselves actually celebrated his death. Something to think about.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    I think you guys forgot one thing if you're praising Fidel Castro. Remember the 80's? No? The Mariel Boatlift? No? Okay, well then let me tell you a story of how Fidel Castro released about 80% of Cuba's criminals and boosted them to Miami and then bragged that he 'flushed the toilets' on America. Yeah. Cocaine, rape, murder, gun trafficking, drug trafficking, prostitution rings, kiddie porn rings, blackmail . . . a bunch of muck that the poor people of Miami had to deal with. Don't go praising Castro, he was partly responsible for the death boom regarding the drug market here in the states!

    Yes because America has never done anything to destabalise a political and economic enemy like arm and train the violent zealots of the Mujahideen, shoot down an Iranian airliner which was flying in Iranian airspace whilst the US were illegally in Iranian waters, armed and funded the Contras, propped up several dictatorships responsible for horrific human rights violations and continues to arm and fund both Israel and Saudi Arabia, one of them being responsible for atrocious apartheid, and the other being probably the leading abuser of human rights in the world today. This doesn't even touch on the trouble you caused worldwide prior to the mid 70s.

    So let's not pretend for a second that a man who was simply fighting back against US economical and social oppression and attack was somehow this great evil no one should like for releasing criminals unto the country that had tried to kill him over 600 times, propped up the dictator that had destroyed his country prior to revolution and the same country that continues to be at the forefront of proxy wars and human rights abuse to this day.

    edit: as for the LBGT issue, as crap as Castro was over it, he decriminalised all acts of homosexuality in 1979, a whopping 24 years prior to America at a Supreme Court level. It wasn't really decriminalised within the army until 2013. Whatever way you spin it, it's laughable to see an American talk this way about Castro and the 'evil' Castro unleashed upon the US whilst completely disregarding that your country has either been responsible, or at least associated with, some of the most terrible crimes in the history of man. The reality of it is that Castro was a saint when compared to the vast majority of US leaders.
     
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    In terms of speaking of evil, regardless on what the US has done, Fidel Castro is a singular entity, unlike the United States. I am not arguing against what the CIA has done which, for the most part, are in part responsible for some of your complaints filed. Just because the US did X to the Middle East or Y to country B doesn't excuse his volatile behaviour. If, say, we were comparing an individual to Castro, I could then see us arguing against whether individuals within the US are comparable to Castro or not. Unfortunately, what you're decrying was carried out by more than a single person and over a period of years and not necessarily linked to any one person, unlike Castro who has also knowingly shot down civilian planes as well, so. . . the point of it all is that Castro can be linked to six decades worth of crimes alone. We shouldn't begin to pull apart and state that Castro was simply 'fighting back' as you put it. Castro did more than a little harm, and writing it off as 'fighting against the US oppressors' I feel is a disservice to the Cuban peoples. I am beginning to wonder though, are we seeing the same thing? Castro's death is still being celebrated by some Cubans. As an individual, Castro was Cuba's voice, much to the chagrin of the Cuban populace.

    If you consider that the average wage is about $20 a week in Cuba and compare Castro's 'communist' values, then you begin to wonder why Forbes valued him at $900M and previously at $500M? Why do so many that were purportedly close to him regale us with tales of extravagance and luxury? It doesn't help matters that his son owns a yacht, potentially outing the family as the source of his cash. This lifestyle doesn't fit what Castro has been telling people. Even if he rented a yacht, I doubt you or I have enough throw away cash to go about even renting one.

    Given the way our system works, the President is not always the individual that decides what happens and where. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. At best, the President of the United States can be likened to a mob boss at best, that is never actually seen giving orders and is very hard to prosecute. I do believe, however, that assassinating Qaddafi has created more problems than it has solved. . . but regardless of this, Castro has much been much the singular voice, the only one that gets to make those decisions. There is (was/is) no room for other voices and Castro's beliefs were the ones that were meted out, regardless of what the Cuban public thought. Some Presidents are better than others, but none have ordered firing squads on anyone so far as I know, and they sure haven't marched dissidents to the state to be marched out and shot for disagreeing with the government. Neither have they went out shooting homosexuals, whom even Castro acknowledges to have done. Arguing that the US is just as bad, if not worse than Castro is much like saying Ted Bundy is not as bad as the entirety of the LAPD. What it boils down to is group v. individual and that isn't much the same, nor fair to argue this point I believe. Castro is Castro and the United States is a country full of individuals that have done many questionable acts, but none of them (those individuals) can claim the will of the people.

    As for Homosexuality laws, the way this country works and how this was treated is up for discussion. As for the claimant for Castro beating the US by 24 years isn't necessarily true. Several states had overturned their laws prior to 1970, several more during the 70s and so on and so forth. When dealing with the way our system works, while I don't always agree with it, means that it's an excruciatingly slow process. Federal law had, for the most part, attempted to further push the legality stance in '81, but met with opposition from the house, which means several people were against it. Am I saying it's right? No, but the way the system works enables the assholes to be assholes, unfortunately. As times changed, yes, federal law was slow at catching up in '94 so you're not totally incorrect, but you're a tad off by about 15 years. State law and federal law operate on two separate levels and sometimes it's confusing and quite irritating that this is so. So by 15 years on federal law, but not incorrect on marriage laws; which brings me to my next point which is that LGBT persons cannot get legally married in Cuba, there isn't necessarily an equivalent such as unions and such. That's not to say that the US is much better, they are still arguing over this.

    Military law, on the other hand, was a separate issue. Many people were uncomfortable with how the military functions and how you'd be seen naked with someone whom could potentially be attracted to you. I don't know, really. Some people aren't really comfortable with the situations people are placed in during training and active service. Should they be barred from service? No, I don't believe so, but I hope that perhaps that gives some insight to perhaps why some felt this way. Military law is a kind of third, separate beast from Federal law. What might be legal within civilian law may not apply within military law. For example, in California marijuana is legal to purchase (qualifiers needed to do so i.e. 18 years of age etc) but I don't believe that it will ever be accepted in military law. What's more, is that all four branches hold their own separate codes of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. But yes, all four branches concede to the USMJ, which governs the military body.

    We have laws, with laws, within laws that call their in-laws for legal advice. It's maddening.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
  • 1,919
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    Castro's death is still being celebrated by some Cubans.

    Mostly those criminals who plagued Miami and the plantation owners/gangsters who were exiled for their part in the hell the Cubans endured under Batista.

    If you consider that the average wage is about $20 a week in Cuba and compare Castro's 'communist' values, then you begin to wonder why Forbes valued him at $900M and previously at $500M? Why do so many that were purportedly close to him regale us with tales of extravagance and luxury? It doesn't help matters that his son owns a yacht, potentially outing the family as the source of his cash. This lifestyle doesn't fit what Castro has been telling people. Even if he rented a yacht, I doubt you or I have enough throw away cash to go about even renting one.

    This is pure conjecture and has no feasible backing. Pray tell where Castro would have gotten $900million from?

    https://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=74

    Even this wildly bias anti Castro, Anti Cuba page outright states their only source is just guessing.

    Given the way our system works, the President is not always the individual that decides what happens and where. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. At best, the President of the United States can be likened to a mob boss at best, that is never actually seen giving orders and is very hard to prosecute. I do believe, however, that assassinating Qaddafi has created more problems than it has solved. . . but regardless of this, Castro has much been much the singular voice, the only one that gets to make those decisions. There is (was/is) no room for other voices and Castro's beliefs were the ones that were meted out, regardless of what the Cuban public thought. Some Presidents are better than others, but none have ordered firing squads on anyone so far as I know, and they sure haven't marched dissidents to the state to be marched out and shot for disagreeing with the government. Neither have they went out shooting homosexuals, whom even Castro acknowledges to have done. Arguing that the US is just as bad, if not worse than Castro is much like saying Ted Bundy is not as bad as the entirety of the LAPD. What it boils down to is group v. individual and that isn't much the same, nor fair to argue this point I believe. Castro is Castro and the United States is a country full of individuals that have done many questionable acts, but none of them (those individuals) can claim the will of the people.

    This is just deflection. Castro was the defacto voice, sure, but he was not the only person ever making decisions. Adolf Hitler was not the sole person making decisions in Germany, Stalin wasn't the sole person making decisions in the USSR etc.

    As for not shooting political dissidents, sorry, how many American Communists were displaced or disposed of during the dark days of McCarthyism? How many young black Americans have been executed for crimes they were never fairly tried for?

    As for Homosexuality laws, the way this country works and how this was treated is up for discussion. As for the claimant for Castro beating the US by 24 years isn't necessarily true. Several states had overturned their laws prior to 1970, several more during the 70s and so on and so forth. When dealing with the way our system works, while I don't always agree with it, means that it's an excruciatingly slow process. Federal law had, for the most part, attempted to further push the legality stance in '81, but met with opposition from the house, which means several people were against it. Am I saying it's right? No, but the way the system works enables the assholes to be assholes, unfortunately. As times changed, yes, federal law was slow at catching up in '94 so you're not totally incorrect, but you're a tad off by about 15 years.[/QUOTE}

    Revisionism aside, The USA as a country did not decriminalise homosexuality until 2003.

    LGBT persons cannot get legally married in Cuba, there isn't necessarily an equivalent such as unions and such. That's not to say that the US is much better, they are still arguing over this.

    Whilst it is wrong that lbgt people cannot marry in Cuba, many within your home country (as you pointed out) is still fighting to try and reverse the decision to allow lbgt marriage

    Military law, on the other hand, was a separate issue. Many people were uncomfortable with how the military functions and how you'd be seen naked with someone whom could potentially be attracted to you. I don't know, really. Some people aren't really comfortable with the situations people are placed in during training and active service. Should they be barred from service? No, I don't believe so, but I hope that perhaps that gives some insight to perhaps why some felt this way. Military law is a kind of third, separate beast from Federal law. What might be legal within civilian law may not apply within military law. For example, in California marijuana is legal to purchase (qualifiers needed to do so i.e. 18 years of age etc) but I don't believe that it will ever be accepted in military law. What's more, is that all four branches hold their own separate codes of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. But yes, all four branches concede to the USMJ, which governs the military body.

    We have laws, with laws, within laws that call their in-laws for legal advice. It's maddening.

    I understand your legal system is somewhat unique in this sense. I am not saying that America is inherently a bad country, I am simply saying those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
     
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    Mostly those criminals who plagued Miami and the plantation owners/gangsters who were exiled for their part in the hell the Cubans endured under Batista.
    So, are you acknowledging that he sent his Cuban prisoners to the US? That he essentially 'pardoned them' and sent them to a country that wasn't prepared to receive them? Keep in mind, that it wasn't just criminals that Castro sent over to the US. I doubt every single one celebrating in the streets is celebrating his death. Here's a story from the Tampa Bay Times. Considering there are 91 year olds celebrating his death (assuming she's not a convicted felon, but I doubt it) it still begs the question. Hey, these people were leaving Cuba. They wanted to flee Cuba. Why? If it was such a great place to live and such a wonderful area, why leave Cuba and come to the Dark Side (United States)? I think that question alone begs the question on the defence side of Castro. If he was not as bad as they, the Cuban populace, said he was then whom exactly should we listen to?

    This is pure conjecture and has no feasible backing. Pray tell where Castro would have gotten $900million from?

    https://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=74

    Even this wildly bias anti Castro, Anti Cuba page outright states their only source is just guessing.
    I actually got this number from Forbes magazine. Forbes collects this data and utilizes the collected assets of the dictator's governmental holdings as well as their best estimate of his private holdings. So far as I know, Castro's son did indeed owned a yacht at some point. I don't know if he has it any more, but that is something that needs to be addressed and I still cannot find an answer. If someone tells you they have no money and then you see their family party around on a multi-million dollar vessel, you begin to ask questions. Castro's worth went from 500M (Forbes' last estimate) to 900M (Forbes' most recent estimate). I'm still looking for this, but when I find it, I'll let you know.

    This is just deflection. Castro was the defacto voice, sure, but he was not the only person ever making decisions. Adolf Hitler was not the sole person making decisions in Germany, Stalin wasn't the sole person making decisions in the USSR etc.

    As for not shooting political dissidents, sorry, how many American Communists were displaced or disposed of during the dark days of McCarthyism? How many young black Americans have been executed for crimes they were never fairly tried for?
    Actually, I don't believe this is deflection at all, I believe that bringing up African Americans unlawfully persecuted in the US more of a deflection. Again, it takes at least 12 people to convict someone here, if one person says 'I'm not so sure' then you have a hung jury. The 12 jurors must all agree on the evidence and what was said and discussed within that court, and there are appeals as well. Some of this stuff, I feel, hasn't happened in numbers you seem to be concerned about since the '60s, and even then, again, perpetrated by the minority and not the majority.

    I'd say that the internment of all Japanese Americans more in-line with what we're discussing. Castro was the sole voice needed to send someone off to the firing squads, and he personally oversaw several of these 'sentences' handed out as well as his brother Raul. No appeals, no retrial and no jury. It isn't the same; I'm calling apples and oranges. Castro personally sent people to the firing squads that were waiting outside the courthouse. Does our system work like that in the US? No. We're talking the immediate carrying out of the death penalty on Castro's end. We're not discussing the Americans who were in the wrong by dragging someone else and hanging them from a tree, as this is without a trial nor a jury and not secularly can be tied to the United States government.

    Castro's actions are his own, and overseeing active firing squads doesn't give Castro much wiggle room.

    Revisionism aside, The USA as a country did not decriminalize homosexuality until 2003.
    If you want to get technical, the sodomy laws were repealed in '03. At the federal level, it still sticks at about 1993.

    If you want to boil this down even further (they were being very sneaky-sneaky with the laws) homosexuality, as you say, was never actually technically, illegal; sodomy was. This is where the sneaky-sneaky comes into play. You could be gay or lesbian but you could not commit sodomy. Unfortunately, I doubt that these laws were used to target anyone but the gay community. Very distasteful, but the law is a strangely worded piece that reaches around the Federal decision to remove such laws.

    Yes, you could be beaten to death by hick rednecks, but the courts don't encourage murder. . . so, with federal law overriding state law, I'd even point you towards Harvey Milk, an openly gay politician running for local office. Unfortunately he was assassinated, by a disgruntled employee (Dave White) no less, not specifically for being gay.

    A lot of these laws are also being retroactively removed, such as laws crafted in the mid to late 1800s. Some states are being grilled for attempting to utilize some of these aged laws, such as Louisiana. Unfortunately, the way the Federal level and the state level function poorly. Federal law can say 'this is unconstitutional' but cannot erase laws that states have crafted, so it is up to the state to clean up its own mess. As far as I understand, the way the system works is designed to prevent the formal government from controlling the local government and vice-versa. Strange, and extremely difficult to explain.

    So, we're kind of both right and wrong on some things, it seems. Also, considering the remaining holdouts were an extreme minority of the US population you have to consider that damning the entire country when the vast majority of the people here actually agree with you to be slightly irking. One of these states was actually Florida, and as far as I can recall, there really wasn't anyone concerned about the police using the laws there. Although Florida is . . . Florida, and the crass joke of the US a lot of times due to 'Florida Man'.

    Whilst it is wrong that lbgt people cannot marry in Cuba, many within your home country (as you pointed out) is still fighting to try and reverse the decision to allow lbgt marriage
    I believe that I did mention that the US was still having troubles with this. I don't believe I ever laid the sole blame on just Cuba. I think I did say that we still have issues here. It'd be weird if I said this was a magical land full of wonderful people ohoho! We have lots of unsavory cunts here in the United States, but unfortunately, if said unsavory cunts are abiding by the law, their vote counts just as much as mine. Unfortunate, but true.

    I understand your legal system is somewhat unique in this sense. I am not saying that America is inherently a bad country, I am simply saying those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
    Again, not throwing stones. Just wish people wouldn't defend a murderer. Let me know if I'm defending one, as I'd need to know. I don't feel up for much more discussing the US in a thread about Fidel Castro. I mean, at what point do we stop going back in time in the US' history? The same time Castro came to prominence? I just feel that if you're responsible, you're responsible. Stalin and Adolf certainly did more than their fair share of ordering atrocities, but I believe that both died before Castro even rose to power . . . I could be wrong about Stalin though, off the top of my head I want to say he died in '56.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    So, are you acknowledging that he sent his Cuban prisoners to the US? That he essentially 'pardoned them' and sent them to a country that wasn't prepared to receive them? Keep in mind, that it wasn't just criminals that Castro sent over to the US. I doubt every single one celebrating in the streets is celebrating his death. Here's a story from the Tampa Bay Times. Considering there are 91 year olds celebrating his death (assuming she's not a convicted felon, but I doubt it) it still begs the question. Hey, these people were leaving Cuba. They wanted to flee Cuba. Why? If it was such a great place to live and such a wonderful area, why leave Cuba and come to the Dark Side (United States)? I think that question alone begs the question on the defence side of Castro. If he was not as bad as they, the Cuban populace, said he was then whom exactly should we listen to?

    Yes, older Cubans who fled Cuba when they were told they wouldn't be allowed to exploit their fellow coutnrymen in near slavery conditions. Cuban Mafiosos who were told they wouldn't be profiting off of the addictions of their own countrymen anymore. The majority of those who fled Cuba were the scum of Cuban society who had profited heavily off of the large scale abuse under the Batista dictatorship.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

    The land owners that Batista allied with and the gangsters he empowered are the ones who fled Cuba.

    Here's who I'd listen to. Cubans. Not 3rd and 4th Generation near-white American teens who's grandparents were Cuban exiles but who have never seen anything of Cuba themselves, but actual Cubans. Cubans who live in Cuba today.

    I actually got this number from Forbes magazine. Forbes collects this data and utilizes the collected assets of the dictator's governmental holdings as well as their best estimate of his private holdings. So far as I know, Castro's son did indeed owned a yacht at some point. I don't know if he has it any more, but that is something that needs to be addressed and I still cannot find an answer. If someone tells you they have no money and then you see their family party around on a multi-million dollar vessel, you begin to ask questions. Castro's worth went from 500M (Forbes' last estimate) to 900M (Forbes' most recent estimate). I'm still looking for this, but when I find it, I'll let you know.

    Forbes is also the source that site I linked to uses and they admit openly that Forbes is essentially guessing. Castro had over 90 awards and decorations from other countries, and was openly mourned by the Pope. It is not outlandish to believe that one of the millions of foreign friends, admirers and allies of the Castro family would of donated or lent a yacht to his son. On top of this, Castro isn't the reason that Cuba is poor, the US is. Although noteworthy is that Cubans are 3x better off financially now than they were under the US imposed monster Batista.


    Some of this stuff, I feel, hasn't happened in numbers you seem to be concerned about since the '60s, and even then, again, perpetrated by the minority and not the majority.

    As did most of what you've chastised Castro for.

    QUOTE]I'd say that the internment of all Japanese Americans more in-line with what we're discussing.[/QUOTE]

    Not really, they were arrested and mistreated based on race. It was, and still is, open knowledge that there was little to no spying for the Empire of Japan.

    Castro was the sole voice needed to send someone off to the firing squads, and he personally oversaw several of these 'sentences' handed out as well as his brother Raul. No appeals, no retrial and no jury. It isn't the same; I'm calling apples and oranges. Castro personally sent people to the firing squads that were waiting outside the courthouse. Does our system work like that in the US? No. We're talking the immediate carrying out of the death penalty on Castro's end. We're not discussing the Americans who were in the wrong by dragging someone else and hanging them from a tree, as this is without a trial nor a jury and not secularly can be tied to the United States government.

    I dunno man, a lot of your cops seem to think they're judge Dredd so.

    Castro's actions are his own, and overseeing active firing squads doesn't give Castro much wiggle room.

    I'd of had slave owners and mafia dons who raped the land and left the 99% in hideous poverty with no liberties shot too in that scenario. I'm not justifying his actions, but it's insane to suggest he was uniquely evil instead of just a flawed, angry human.

    I've left the rest as it pertains to things that are detracting from Castro now and becoming a much wider discussion.
     
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