Flavor or Balance?

[Adam Levine]

I've had this thought many times when a Pokémon's in-game viability is brought up, and especially in competitive circles, "weak" Pokémon are usually bemoaned, with many people begging for "buffs" so that they might be "worth using," and a similar reaction occurs to the opposite extreme, with people disliking Pokémon that are "overpowered." But while I understand the sentiment, I can't help but ask: does a Pokémon need to be "balanced" for gameplay first and foremost, or should its gameplay capabilities reflect its personality and flavor?

I think a good place to start is with Delcatty. Delcatty is considered one of the worst fully evolved Pokémon of all time, with a base stat total even lower than Spidops's, a rather unimpressive movepool, and a less than stellar choice in abilities. Delcatty clearly has no place in a serious playthrough, let alone a nuzlocke or competitive play, so justifiably people want Delcatty to get more than just the 20-point Speed boost it got in Generation VI.
But I mean...look at it. Skitty and Delcatty are clearly designer breeds, so they're meant to be better pets than fighters.
A valid argument is that Skitty and Delcatty shouldn't exist in the first place because they're just dex-fillers at that point, but I think that weak Pokémon are essential to fill out a Pokédex, because such a high saturation of strong Pokémon leaves a region feeling homogenous. Besides, having a Delcatty on your team can add an interesting challenge to your party.
Tl;dr Delcatty's design is more in line with its "flavor," but not "balance" (i.e. gameplay balance).
But what do you think? Should Pokémon like Skitty and Delcatty stay weak for flavor reasons, or should they be buffed to appeal to more competitive players?

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's Onix. It's a giant rock snake that's almost nine meters in length, but has an Attack stat lower than Oddish's, and an HP stat that's even lower. Even though Steelix was introduced the next generation, you have to wonder why Onix has such bizarre stats for how it looks.
People often suggest that Onix was designed to be a "first boss" of sorts, hence its massive Defense and decent Speed but a lackluster everything else. In fact, this comment on Big Yellow's video on Ground-types in RBY got me thinking about it further:

The funny thing about Onix having a high defense and low HP is that it's basically optimized to make Bide as weak as possible. Wonder if they did that on purpose to keep Brock from being any harder.

Tl;dr Onix's design is more in line with its "balance," but not "flavor."
Should Onix have been given this treatment? Or should it have been given stats that actually fit its physical appearance and capabilities?

I've had similar thoughts about people wanting to buff Meganium. I saw a YouTube short of someone explaining how they would change Pokémon's types, and the instant they suggested making Meganium a Fairy-type I clicked off. The thing about the Johto starters is that they were intended to be monotype even in their final form, so giving one of them two types makes them stick out like a sore thumb (looking at you, Emboar). Even though Meganium is awful in competitive play, it doesn't warrant a new type in my book.
Besides, there are probably more clever ways to balance Pokémon than slapping a new type on them while still keeping them in line with their aesthetics and personality. I remember reading a suggestion that Meganium's Hidden Ability should be Flower Veil, an ability that makes the user (if it's a Grass-type) and its Grass-type allies immune to stat drops and status conditions. Currently, literally no Grass-type has Flower Veil, so Meganium having it would give it a unique defensive niche, even if small.
Tl;dr Meganium's design is in line with its "flavor," but it might be possible to design it in line with "balance" as well.

And finally, I'd like to talk about a more personal gripe with Koraidon and Miraidon. They might be my favorite box legendaries in terms of character and implementation in story, but I really dislike the fact that they have some of the most overpowered signature abilities we've seen so far. Sure, they're powerful, but should that warrant Koraidon having Zacian's and Groudon's abilities at once, while still somehow not being the more broken dragon? To me, it just doesn't feel like their gameplay abilities and their in-universe lore don't match up.
Tl;dr Koraidon and Miraidon's design is more in line with its "balance," but not "flavor," but unlike Onix, which is unjustly awful, Koraidon and Miraidon are, at least in my opinion, too strong if you keep flavor in mind.

Let me know what you think, though. Do Pokémon like Delcatty and Meganium deserve to be good in battle? Do Pokémon like Onix deserve to have stats that "make sense?" Should Pokémon like Koraidon and Miraidon be more "balanced" to make them fit their lore better, or do they deserve to be so absurdly powerful?

 

[Empoleon671]

unfortunately, that's the nature of an RPG with over 900 characters. not all of them will be able to be balanced. there will almost always be a meta or "strongest" picks. but again, you can still win with something like Delcatty or Spidops, however you'd have to try harder than your opponent likely.

Personally, the only buff i could see them giving to delcatty is some mega evolution with a insane ability or paradox form. but if you ask me, i don't think they should buff weak pokemon to competitive levels, but rather nerf the strong picks. I think that's a objectively better way to balance the game and easier to manage. however, obviously i'm not the final say, and a delcatty viable in competitive would be interesting. we live in a time where a delibird form is considered broken in competitive so anything's possible.


as for onix having a weird stat distribution, I'm not sure. I'd chalk it up to gen 1 weirdness than anything and Brock is the first gym leader, so giving him really strong pokemon seems weird from a purely gameplay design perspective.

i actually don't mind Koraidon and Miraidon being insanely strong/ overpowered abilities. ever since they started transitioning to less legendaries, i think it's a change i can accept considering i don't really see that where i play. (probably because it's only in unrestricted formats)

but back to your question specifically, no imo, because pokemon never really operated on "having stats that make sense". An aqua blue rabbit is one of the best physical attackers in competitive with an attack stat of 50, an overall very low BST, while something like Luxray, a fan favorite, has a nice stat spread, high bst, yet is seen as one of the worst pokemon to use in competitive. Despite having almost 100 in stats higher than Azumarill. man, i wish Luxray was more competitively viable ;[

 

[Sweet Serenity]

I've had this thought many times when a Pokémon's in-game viability is brought up, and especially in competitive circles, "weak" Pokémon are usually bemoaned, with many people begging for "buffs" so that they might be "worth using," and a similar reaction occurs to the opposite extreme, with people disliking Pokémon that are "overpowered." But while I understand the sentiment, I can't help but ask: does a Pokémon need to be "balanced" for gameplay first and foremost, or should its gameplay capabilities reflect its personality and flavor?

I think a good place to start is with Delcatty. Delcatty is considered one of the worst fully evolved Pokémon of all time, with a base stat total even lower than Spidops's, a rather unimpressive movepool, and a less than stellar choice in abilities. Delcatty clearly has no place in a serious playthrough, let alone a nuzlocke or competitive play, so justifiably people want Delcatty to get more than just the 20-point Speed boost it got in Generation VI.
But I mean...look at it. Skitty and Delcatty are clearly designer breeds, so they're meant to be better pets than fighters.
A valid argument is that Skitty and Delcatty shouldn't exist in the first place because they're just dex-fillers at that point, but I think that weak Pokémon are essential to fill out a Pokédex, because such a high saturation of strong Pokémon leaves a region feeling homogenous. Besides, having a Delcatty on your team can add an interesting challenge to your party.
Tl;dr Delcatty's design is more in line with its "flavor," but not "balance" (i.e. gameplay balance).
But what do you think? Should Pokémon like Skitty and Delcatty stay weak for flavor reasons, or should they be buffed to appeal to more competitive players?

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's Onix. It's a giant rock snake that's almost nine meters in length, but has an Attack stat lower than Oddish's, and an HP stat that's even lower. Even though Steelix was introduced the next generation, you have to wonder why Onix has such bizarre stats for how it looks.
People often suggest that Onix was designed to be a "first boss" of sorts, hence its massive Defense and decent Speed but a lackluster everything else. In fact, this comment on Big Yellow's video on Ground-types in RBY got me thinking about it further:

Tl;dr Onix's design is more in line with its "balance," but not "flavor."
Should Onix have been given this treatment? Or should it have been given stats that actually fit its physical appearance and capabilities?

I've had similar thoughts about people wanting to buff Meganium. I saw a YouTube short of someone explaining how they would change Pokémon's types, and the instant they suggested making Meganium a Fairy-type I clicked off. The thing about the Johto starters is that they were intended to be monotype even in their final form, so giving one of them two types makes them stick out like a sore thumb (looking at you, Emboar). Even though Meganium is awful in competitive play, it doesn't warrant a new type in my book.
Besides, there are probably more clever ways to balance Pokémon than slapping a new type on them while still keeping them in line with their aesthetics and personality. I remember reading a suggestion that Meganium's Hidden Ability should be Flower Veil, an ability that makes the user (if it's a Grass-type) and its Grass-type allies immune to stat drops and status conditions. Currently, literally no Grass-type has Flower Veil, so Meganium having it would give it a unique defensive niche, even if small.
Tl;dr Meganium's design is in line with its "flavor," but it might be possible to design it in line with "balance" as well.

And finally, I'd like to talk about a more personal gripe with Koraidon and Miraidon. They might be my favorite box legendaries in terms of character and implementation in story, but I really dislike the fact that they have some of the most overpowered signature abilities we've seen so far. Sure, they're powerful, but should that warrant Koraidon having Zacian's and Groudon's abilities at once, while still somehow not being the more broken dragon? To me, it just doesn't feel like their gameplay abilities and their in-universe lore don't match up.
Tl;dr Koraidon and Miraidon's design is more in line with its "balance," but not "flavor," but unlike Onix, which is unjustly awful, Koraidon and Miraidon are, at least in my opinion, too strong if you keep flavor in mind.

Let me know what you think, though. Do Pokémon like Delcatty and Meganium deserve to be good in battle? Do Pokémon like Onix deserve to have stats that "make sense?" Should Pokémon like Koraidon and Miraidon be more "balanced" to make them fit their lore better, or do they deserve to be so absurdly powerful?

I feel that a Pokémon's gameplay should try to reflect its lore, but this won't always translate to competitive play, especially when considering the dynamics of the game and what other players use to counter other Pokémon. Even the strongest Pokémon can look weak when people have good measures to counter it. For example, even though people often say that Miraidon is broken, it can easily be stopped dead in its tracks and defeated by Clodsire of all things. Pretty much any Fairy-type Pokémon can absolutely wreck Koraidon. A Psyduck could literally block the effects of Kyogre and Groudon's weather and even defeat Groudon with the right moveset and held item. Even the weakest can be strong. For example, I don't think Pachirisu was meant to have any lore mentioning it's powerful, but it is the only "Pikaclone" to become a world champion so far, solely because of its sleeper bulk. To me, that's the beauty of Pokémon: it teaches you to never write off a Pokémon until you analyze every last one of its strengths and weaknesses, even if it has a reputation of being "weak."

As for Delcatty, my guess is that it was never meant to be used for battles, as crazy as that sounds, considering that Pokémon is a game all about battling. Or is it? I say that because, consider this: Delcatty debuted in the same generation that Pokémon contests debuted as well. My theory is that Delcatty is a Pokémon that was meant to be used by players that enjoy cute Pokémon with interesting designs, which would make them more likely to be chosen for Pokémon contests rather than battles. Plenty of Pokémon players exist with this sentiment; in fact, many are not interested in the competitive aspect. Personally, when I played the Pokémon contests, I often used Pokémon that I didn't battle with most of the time. (However, I did use my Reshiram in Pokémon Omega Ruby to master all the contests, only because she is my favorite legendary and is arguably the most beautiful Pokémon ever). As for whether or not Delcatty should receive a buff, I personally don't see a reason to buff it. Delcatty, in my opinion, is too weak beyond repair. At this point, the best way to "buff" Delcatty is to give it the "Delibird treatment" and create a Paradox Pokémon based on it. I say that because you seriously have to do a lot to make Delcatty even remotely viable. She requires a much better Ability, much higher stat boosts, and a better movepool, which isn't too bad, but there aren't enough physical moves for her to learn when Delcatty is actually a better physical attacker than a special one.

As for Onix, I still can't make sense of why Onix is so weak, especially compared to its appearance. However, if I had to guess, and keep in mind, this is only a guess, but I would say that Onix is likely really weak (offensively at least) because it is the ace of the first gym leader. The first gym leader is always meant to have Pokémon that aren't too challenging. Perhaps Game Freak wanted to create a Pokémon that looked like a good introductory boss but wasn't too hard to defeat. This could be even further explained by the lack of Rock-type moves that Brock's Onix had. Despite Onix's reputation for being weak and disappointing, I believe it would actually have some potential if it existed in this generation. Onix has a base Defense stat of 160, which is very good, and also a Speed stat of 70, which is definitely below average, but is actually really good for a Rock-type Pokémon. Because Onix isn't fully evolved, it can hold an Eviolite, an item that boosts both its defensive stats by half. With more EV investment in its low Special Defense instead of its already high Defense while holding the Eviolite, Onix can be bulky in both Special Defense and Defense despite its low HP. With that, it can Tera Type to Fighting to avoid the common weaknesses that Rock/Ground suffer from and use a strong Body Press, especially after boosting with Defense Curl. Personally, to answer your question, I don't believe that Onix should have gotten this treatment if the "first boss" theory is true. I feel that they could have just given Brock a weaker ace and let Onix be a stronger, later game Pokémon, especially considering the fact that they're found in Victory Road.

As for Meganium, Meganium isn't as bad as people think she is, even though she might actually be the worst fully-evolved Starter Pokémon. Despite that, Meganium still has many things going for her. I definitely wouldn't call her "awful." For instance, Meganium's stats are practically the same as Venusaur's stats, with the only difference being that their offensive and defensive stats are swapped. This leaves Meganium with 80 HP, 100 Defense, 100 Special Defense, and 80 Speed. It's not that much different from Skeledirge, who has good defensive stats. This means that Meganium has the potential to be a good bulky Pokémon. Moreover, the 80 base Speed stat actually makes her faster than most defensive Pokémon, which is a good thing as well. She can also learn good moves such as Giga Drain, Synthesis, Poison Powder, Leech Seed, and Protect to stall and stay in the battle for a long time. Her Hidden Ability, Leaf Guard, prevents status conditions in the sun, which makes her even more defensive. However, I would say that she could use a better Ability. I can see her getting either Grassy Surge like Rillaboom or even Unaware like Skeledirge. The only issue with this is that Meganium's typing isn't the best to be defensive considering that Grass has a lot of weaknesses, but in this current generation, this can be circumvented by giving her a good defensive Tera Type like Steel, Water, or Poison. With that being said, I feel the only "buff" she could use is a better Hidden Ability, but even that's not really required to say the least.

As for Koraidon and Miraidon, they're supposed to be broken because they're box legendaries. Every box legendary Pokémon was broken during the time it was released. For example, let's give a quick rundown of all the box legendaries: Mewtwo (Gen 1's de facto box legendary) completely broke Pokémon way back then due to being the only Pokémon strong as it was, as well as Psychic-type being extremely broken. Ho-Oh is possibly the strongest bulky attacker in the game and even more broken with its Ability Regenerator. Lugia is arguably the best staller in the game, considering its massive defensive stats, recover moves, Multiscale Ability, and high Speed. Kyogre and Groudon are super broken, literally dominating Doubles singlehandedly every generation they're in. Rayquaza dominated Singles while negating weather, and got a Mega Evolution, becoming arguably the most broken Pokémon in the game. Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, already really strong, all got big boosts from the orbs that they held, which was a big deal during that time. Reshiram and Zekrom had massive stats and extremely hard-hitting signature moves, while both had the ability to ignore other Pokémon's abilities. Kyurem, already strong, could be made even stronger by fusing either Reshiram or Zekrom with it. Xerneas is arguably the most fearsome special sweeper in the game after using Geomancy. Yvetal is known for being extremely hard to get rid of because of its signature move and for dealing massive damage when using Dark-type moves because of its Ability. Its Foul Play is also very strong as a result. We never got Pokémon Z, but if we did, Zygarde would definitely be on the cover and its Complete Form is likely the bulkiest Pokémon ever. Solegalo and Lunala are pretty much Ho-Oh and Lugia in terms of being bulky attackers and can be fused with Necrozma to be stronger. Of course, Zacian is perhaps the best physical sweeper in Pokémon, and Zamazenta is a ridiculously strong physical defender with good typing.

To me, it makes perfect sense. The entire gimmick, if you will, of Generation IX is to showcase how certain Pokémon were much stronger in the past and/or have become much stronger in the future. Apparently, past Pokémon such as Scream Tail and Flutter Mane were much stronger than their present-day counterparts, perhaps because the species had to adapt to the harsher living conditions of the past. When their living conditions grew less harsh, they likely evolved over time with less primitive characteristics, making them weaker overall. That could explain why Jigglypuff and Misdreavus are weaker than Scream Tail and Flutter Mane. With the future, it is stated that scientists in the far future built mechanical Pokémon based on those that lived in the past and made them stronger. Koraidon and Miraidon are both based on the present day Cyclizar, which is, in its own right, a relatively powerful Pokémon, especially considering its 501 base stat total without having an evolution. If Jigglypuff can go from having a 570 base stat total as Scream Tail to 270 in the present day, and Delibird can get 570 as Iron Bundle from a 330 base stat total, it is perfectly reasonable that Cyclizar could have been 680 in the past as Koraidon and 680 in the future as Miraidon. Also, consider this: when Koraidon's Ability is triggered, the text tells us that the sunlight sends Koraidon into a "frenzy." In Pokémon Legends: Arceus, the bosses that we fought were "frenzied," which implies that being sent into a frenzy is a characteristic of the past. To me, this makes the "Raidon's" power levels make even more sense.

 

[Corveone]

I believe that there are two different kinds of balance: Adventure/RPG balance, and competitive balance, and no matter how much developers may try to offer both experiences, you just can't do both effectively at once.

From a Pokémon game experience perspective as a whole, we have to look at balance as multiple different factors, not just how good at battling each Pokémon is at the very end. I mean, Ratitate and Dragonite are well balanced from an ingame standpoint, because yeah, at the end Dragonite is way stronger, but Dratini is usually a pain to find, harder to train, stays weaker for longer and takes way longer to reach its full potential, and until level 55 has very little to offer. Raticate is a Pokémon you can get with zero effort, raise very easily, and it learns strong moves early on, meaning that for a good chunk of the adventure, Raticate is in fact a great Pokémon and it's better than many stronger ones.

From a competitive standpoint, however, the only thing that matters is what a Pokémon can accomplish in battle once it reached its full potential, and everything else is irrelevant. So competitively speaking Raticate and Dragonite are completely unbalanced and it makes no sense for them to coexist in the same league.

Raticate is not supposed to be as good as Dragonite, nor Dustox as good as Volcarona, nor Plusle as good as Raikou, because they are Pokémon created to fill completely different roles in the adventure. The weaker are weaker and the stronger are stronger for a valid reason, because each has its place and purpose in the games.

Imo the actual balance problems come when two or more Pokémon are supposed to fit the same or a very similar role (e.g. two starters, especially if they're from the same region), but one of them ends up being clearly superior for no good reason other than because devs wanted. Or when a Pokémon is just extremely difficult to find and train, or comes very late, and it's not even good enough to justify it.

 

[Devalue]

Leans towards a combination of gameplay and flavor.

• Should a legendary be powerful? Yes. Feels silly for a very powerful Pokemon to get beat up by an average dog, for example.
• Do all (normal) Pokemon need to be equally powerful? No. Will never fully balance all 1000+ Pokemon. Allows some identity to sneak in by being different too. Likely becomes bland by excessively balancing.
• Are things properly balanced now? No. Feels like too wide of a gap, at present. Made some Pokemon unable to really function in any kind of battle. Becomes hard to connect with a Pokemon if they keep fainting. Needs some baseline level of battling ability or niche.

On Delcatty: Does not need to sacrifice flavor to make things more balanced. Holds up Delcatty as a showy Pokemon. Gave Furfrou, another showy Pokemon, Fur Coat. Make Delcatty the special version of that.

And because why not, a signature move: Cute Countenance. Works like Attract, but without the gender restriction. Targets both enemy Pokemon too. (Still fails against Oblivious Pokemon.) Stands a chance of doing something (in single player) between that, Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, and some other move.

On Onix: Agrees on its stats being weird. Might be because of Geodude, though. Already shares a typing. Had to make them different somehow.

Puts forward a second reason for a low HP stat. Doubts Bide as the reason, though. Probably presented a huge problem for some people at the first gym with more hitpoints. Imagine picking Charmander. How is a new Pokemon player supposed to handle Onix? Catches no decent matchups for Onix before Brock. Would have been a massive wall for new players, probably leading them to drop the game.

Personally wants more Hitpoints and Attack for Onix. Maybe +20 HP and +10 Attack? Works for both balance and flavor. No longer accepts Brock as an excuse.

On Koraidon / Miraidon: Views them as a little too powerful. Feels like too much powercreep between that and their ability. (May be a little late on the powercreep point, considering Zacian.) Stacks a ton of extra damage. Would change their signature move's effect to extending Sun/Electric Terrain by 1 turn per use.

Disagrees on them not fitting flavor, though. Ravaged Research Station #4. Describes them as powerful in the Pokedex.

Much remains unknown about this creature. It resembles Cyclizar, but it is far more ruthless and powerful.

This seems to be the Iron Serpent mentioned in an old book. The Iron Serpent is said to have turned the land to ash with its lightning.

This seems to be the Winged King mentioned in an old expedition journal. It was said to have split the land with its bare fists.

This Pokémon resembles Cyclizar, but it is far burlier and more ferocious. Nothing is known about its ecology or other features.

 

[Squirtkipfan01]

as with most games involved housing many characters to choose from, inevitably some will be better and worse. Especially when like 1000 exist. That said i try picking things with flavor and balance, but am also well aware some of my favorites arent great. Example being my favorite fire-type Magmortar, whose speed stat is awful

 

[ReKoil]

Weaker Pokemon are generally fine. Not everything needs to be super strong. I took a Spinda on my team in Sun, which is a fully evolved Pokemon that's even weaker than Delcatty, and kept it all the way till I was champion. It dealt with most of Acerola's team by itself during the E4.

It is however unfortunate when you like a Pokemon and it struggles during a playthrough. I've used Delcatty on a playthrough in RSE and although not amazing it was still a decent team member at the time. With the power creep I doubt it would still be the case in more recent games.
For Delcatty they should just treat it as the middle stage it is and give it an evolution. A happiness evolution would fit fine for it, and is stupidly easy nowadays as you can have a freshly hatched Pokemon that evolves via happiness evolve by level 5, only taking a couple minutes of camping/picnicking to get it ready. Most level up evolutions actually take more time nowadays with how easy they've made happiness evolutions in the more recent games.

Onix has weird stats yes. Pretty unimpressive for a big rock snek. I'm fine with it staying weak though, given that it already has an evo and most people will use fully evolved mons on a playthrough anyway. Could be a problem for players with no access to trade, but Steelix is catchable in the wild in several games now.
Meganium is fine the way it is imo. A dual type could be nice, but it's not at all necessary imo
For Koraidon/Miraidon... I think they're fine. The box art legendaries have always felt 'broken' compared to other Pokemon of their games. They usually also get nerfed the very next generation.

Nothing should ever be buffed to appeal to competitive players as competitive Pokemon never should've been a thing in the first place imo.
Pokemon should only be buffed to benefit using them on a playthrough. As for balancing, I also don't mind balancing for lore reasons, though I do really wish some of the more hindersome things like Slow Start would get a nerf.

 

[Mastercarp]

My personal opinion is that pokémon should be an RPG at it's core, that means onix makes (almost) perfect sense for its role as Brocks ace. Its really flawed in that its dissappointing to use, but then Steelix fixed that and was shown off by Jasmine even. Good and well implemented buff. In fact, evolutions, regional forms or transformations are pretty well received and generally not problematic at all. Delcatty fans would probably like that kind of "buff" too.

I think Marowak is a good example for both bad and good buffs: it gets a busted signature item in gen 2; thick club, but it wasn't obvious and I wasn't even aware of before False Swipe made a video on it. Good mechanic-wise but poorly implemented and definitely not as interesting when compared to the Alola form.

I like Meganium, and its clearly a candidate for some special buff treatment given its a rather neglected starter. Giving it a new type or ability could help it mechanically, but that wouldn't be as exciting as something more visible like a new form or a signature move that really helped it in an in-game plathrough.