Flaws in the meta-game

[Zeffy]

What do you mean more? There's only a couple of (viable) spinners and defoggers in each tier, right?

anything is technically (well, not really anything) viable if you're confident with your teambuilding skills

it all boils down to how well you can make a team really. what's the use of having 6 viable pokemon on a team when you clearly don't know how to incorporate the strengths of weaknesses of each one?

 

[Nah]

anything is technically (well, not really anything) viable if your confident with you're teambuilding skills

it all boils down to how well you can make a team really. what's the use of having 6 viable pokemon on a team when you clearly don't know how to incorporate the strengths of weaknesses of each one?

yea but I suck at team building ;_;

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Real quick on the no added effects on moves -

but then there'd be only one type of each move between physical and special each pokemon would ever run. Scald is great for the 30% burn because relying on it can screw you over, and relying on it not burning can screw you over just as much. There'd be no reason for it to exist in lieu of surf though without that. The distribution is also a factor; where some pokemon get the weaker moves with the benefit of possible effects where some just get the stronger moves.

Crits and Ice Beam freeze / tbolt paralyze / flamethrower burn are very obnoxious though.

 

[PkmnPruitt]

I believe in order for the meta game to get balanced is not about taking this out or that out. Its them players that abuse a certain tactic and that's when a meta game is born. The true way to balance it out will be to lose the perception of the current tier list and come up New tactics. Then in return if it was a fresh tactic that's in comparison with the current meta game,other players will have. To play a certain way,Too many players chasing the meta game and not trying to think out of the box.....once I get good at battling in a get a clan together to study and destroy the current meta game is my future poke goal

 

[Nah]

I believe in order for the meta game to get balanced is not about taking this out or that out. Its them players that abuse a certain tactic and that's when a meta game is born. The true way to balance it out will be to lose the perception of the current tier list and come up New tactics. Then in return if it was a fresh tactic that's in comparison with the current meta game,other players will have. To play a certain way,Too many players chasing the meta game and not trying to think out of the box.....once I get good at battling in a get a clan together to study and destroy the current meta game is my future poke goal

I'm all for thinking outside the box and coming up with new battle tactics and sets, but I still believe that a lot of people simply aren't capable of doing so/don't want to do so. People are going to abuse certain strategies because they know they work, and in a world filled with somewhat lazy, uncreative people who just wanna win, why bother experimenting with new ideas? There's also a bit of a fine line between new&different sets that actually work and new&different sets that are just unviable crap.

I also see no (good) reason to get rid of the tier system.

 

[Anti]

Clearly people havent played gen 4 if they think that is how it works. Its not.

Late Dppt was the essence of balance imo (with Latias, post Latias stupid shit like Shaymin was bs to face). All play styles were viable. No bs megas, no bs no skill gothitelle and everything could be checked and countered.

If a pokemon wasnt ou because it had a SR weak? It sucked anyway, was outclassed, offered little utility etc looking at you Charizard fanboys. Zapdos, Gyarados, Ninjask, Togekiss, Dragonite, Weavile etc were ALL OU and all were horrendously Stealth Rock weak. Infact Salamence and Shaymin-S were BANNED in gen 4 for for being OP and both were SR weak. So i dont get how that correlates with keeping other "dominant" types in check. :\

Plus Payback sp.def Forretress was a thing and at worse 3hko'd the best spinblockers in the game aka Rotom-A and ohko'd Gengar so they couldnt stop you spinning forever. Life Orb Recover Starmie was also a thing and couldnt be spinblocked.

Lets fast forwards to today, you have even MORE powerful spinners and Defog, offensive AND defensive magic bounce users etc. Maybe you're just being outplayed? Just something to think about.

This is mostly true, but if we're going to go on about the Latias metagame, all I'll say is that I think it was very good, but its main pitfall was a lack of diversity. Latias centralized things a lot, and because it was so easy to build around for any style, from full stall to hyper offense, it was pretty ubiquitous. A lot of builds were pretty much exactly the same. That was why I disliked the Latias metagame, though I do wonder in retrospect if people were just bad at "innovating," especially given how exploitable Latias itself is/was and how predictable Heatran/W/G cores were.

Of course, this is no different than a lot of balance now. There's a whole lot of "let's get a few strong attackers and throw Rotom-W and Landorus-T on as the glue!" balance going around, and while those teams tend to get demolished by Clefable (just kill the Heatran that they always run), it's still stale. I think a lot of what is frustrating about ORAS for me is that there are a lot of really good glue Pokemon that are so splashable that teams just end up looking the team. Think about it: offensive has Latios and Keldeo (not to mention Scarf Landorus-T) who are everywhere. Balance has those Pokemon as well as MG Clefable, Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria (hnnng), Mega Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Heatran, and especially Rotom-W. Stall has Unaware Clefable and Mega Sableye which really help that style out, especially Sableye of course. It's not so much that these Pokemon are OP (they're obviously not) but that, when building, the answer to "why not use Keldeo?" is often difficult to answer. People were talking about a lack of creativity earlier, and I think this is why. I don't think it's inherent laziness but instead the presence of some really solid glue Pokemon.

(Thinking back to, say, generation 4 for example, I think this wasn't true as much. Latias was the big dog, and Rotom-A was up there too, but I think that meta was more about how there just weren't as many good options as there are now. There are more Pokemon, after all.)

Anyway, there are plenty of things I think would be interesting to suspect test. That doesn't mean I would want them actually suspected or banned, but I think they have unique impacts on the meta that should be examined more closely. In no particular order...

- Scald: burn is too crippling, and it doesn't even need good abusers to suck to face. I don't see why this should exist. (And to answer the inevitable "what about Lava Plume/Discharge?" critique, Scald has way wider distribution and far fewer immunities. I'm not sure I really like those moves either though?)
- Knock Off: This move is crazy good lol. Not sure it's broken really, but it punishes you for running a Dark weak/physically frail Mega and is generally a high return move that requires little skill to screw people over with.
- Stealth Rock: Maybe even including other hazards. First of all, it's about as objectively broken as anything in Pokemon, as you are putting yourself at a disadvantage not using it. I think the "it checks broken things" is a terrible argument. All that said, it requires more skill than it used to to get and keep your rocks up. Still, I'm curious what percentage of damage done in an average OU match (weighted for skill) is done by SR/hazards.
- Mega Metagross: Insanely broken.
- U-turn and Volt Switch: Are we sure these moves aren't broken, or are healthy for the metagame? Take Scarf Landorus-T, for example. Are we sure this would be anywhere near as good as it is without "free momentum"? Is Intimidate the only reason it's seen so much more than, say, Excadrill? If I were allowed to impose one "off the wall" suspect test on Smogon, it wouldn't be SR, but rather these moves. The momentum is ridiculous on top of the chip damage. (The latter point is important: Baton Pass is not unmanageable at all from a momentum standpoint.)
- "Luck": Obviously annoying. I kind of with there was a mechanism where things like Flamethrower burns were removed, and every match, each player got one "BS burn/para" and maybe one crit. Could introduce a strategic element. That's pretty out there though lol. (I like it more as a thought experiment than as an actual reality, but yolo.)
- Gothitelle: Incredibly obnoxious.
- Elf Stall: Uses Delphox and Nidoqueen, rly d00d???

If I were to pinpoint actual problems, uhhh OP megas, trappers, momentum moves, elf stall.

 

[PkmnPruitt]

But by unbanning Double Team will stir up the meta game,I don't know much about the meta game and just to be honest I hate having to learn so much just to make a viable team....can't use this can't use that can't sleep my opponents entire team not even two pokemon at the same time n then I can use moves that effect my evasion,some pokemon rely on evasion
I wonder how will things turn out if. Anything goes except
Legendary Pokemon.

 

[PlatinumDude]

But by unbanning Double Team will stir up the meta game,I don't know much about the meta game and just to be honest I hate having to learn so much just to make a viable team....can't use this can't use that can't sleep my opponents entire team not even two pokemon at the same time n then I can use moves that effect my evasion,some pokemon rely on evasion
I wonder how will things turn out if. Anything goes except
Legendary Pokemon.

For one, unbanning Double Team would be pretty much a death sentence. This is because it will turn the game from a skill-based one to a luck-based one. Relying on luck won't do you any good, and this is precisely why evasion clause was introduced.

Sleep is one of the most powerful statuses, which is why sleep clause was put in.

Species clause (not having 2 of the exact same species of Pokemon) is there for a reason: to diversify team building by not limiting yourself to only one particular species.

Just because a Pokemon is legendary doesn't make it Uber. Just take a look at Articuno for instance. Its bad defensive typing is why it struggles to shine. And let's also take a look at Regigigas. While it may have stats on par with some Mega Evolutions, its terrible ability in Slow Start is what really holds it back. And the other 3 Regis? While Registeel is the best out of them (and still doesn't see much use, due to its pretty subpar offensive presence), Regirock and Regice are held back by their common weaknesses.

 

[Xairmo]

But by unbanning Double Team will stir up the meta game,I don't know much about the meta game and just to be honest I hate having to learn so much just to make a viable team....can't use this can't use that can't sleep my opponents entire team not even two pokemon at the same time n then I can use moves that effect my evasion,some pokemon rely on evasion
I wonder how will things turn out if. Anything goes except
Legendary Pokemon.

Relying on evasion is not a strategy, it's the very essence of a lack of strategy. It's the opposite of the thinking outside of the box you were preaching a few posts ago, and the Pokemon that rely on Evasion have had their respective abilities banned. Putting all your opponents Pokemon to sleep, again not very far from the middle of the proverbial box. You wouldn't be creating a new meta, you'd just bring it back to square one. Also if you think the meager title "Legendary" is what constitutes something as overpowered then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[PkmnPruitt]

Relying on evasion is not a strategy, it's the very essence of a lack of strategy. It's the opposite of the thinking outside of the box you were preaching a few posts ago, and the Pokemon that rely on Evasion have had their respective abilities banned. Putting all your opponents Pokemon to sleep, again not very far from the middle of the proverbial box. You wouldn't be creating a new meta, you'd just bring it back to square one. Also if you think the meager title "Legendary" is what constitutes something as overpowered then you're sadly mistaken.

Well said and I'm just getting into the whole competitive scene so please excuse my lack of knowledge but there are moves like roar that completely blows DT out the water, n the whole sleep deal is understandable, and the two of the same pokemon is understandable....but wats the deal with stealth rocks or entry hazards in general are they kinda like steering the meta game right......

 

[srinator]

The only thing I would see as a flaw rn is the luck factor, crit chance/miss chance/damage roll is bad and the game would be much more enjoyable for me at least without it.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

If evasion is banned regardless of methods of dealing with it a la haze, accuracy increases, stomp, steamroller, flying press, body slam, no miss moves, toxic from poison types etc etc; why isn't attact banned with its sole method of avoidance being oblivious?

or stealth rocks which both centralizes and only has rapid spin and defog to stop it from losing you the game

 

[srinator]

Also magic bounce and gaurd and not having a terrible team helps!

 

[Zeffy]

If evasion is banned regardless of methods of dealing with it a la haze, accuracy increases, stomp, steamroller, flying press, body slam, no miss moves, toxic from poison types etc etc; why isn't attact banned with its sole method of avoidance being oblivious?

or stealth rocks which both centralizes and only has rapid spin and defog to stop it from losing you the game

Because unlike evasion abuse, Attract is based heavily on matchup--ie a female vs a male. Simulators, or at least Pokemon Showdown, assigns random genders in each battle to avoid shitty players from using shitty moves such as Attract.

 

[Dark Azelf]

"Because Haze, Stomp, Aerial Ace, <insert other ass move> are soooo easy to fit onto sets over other much more viable moves and they totally have use outside niche situations" [/sarcasm]


EDIT:

Also @ DT above poster, WW and Roar CAN miss vs DT iirc.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Anyway, flaws in the current meta...all I can think of is Scald Burn and Knock Off. The Scald burn I feel is just too good on a move with as much power as Scald; leave the high-damage burn to something like Inferno :P. Knock off buff is crazy; if one move can shift a fair few mons down a tierlist then lol :s.

I agree with this. If megas didnt exist (can we make them go away or put them in ubers where they belong) then i feel Knock Off would be for a suspect test.

Scald is just a cheap cheesy way of wall breaking. Met with a resist or something you cant 2hko? Scald it and fish for burns so it cant keep switching in to wall you. ugh.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

lol dying

Yes; why would all those low power useless bar one scenario moves ever be useful outside of that one situation where their circumstantial secondary effect provides a significant benefit? Surely; there is no move currently used very commonly in the meta due *solely* to the popularity of another dominant factor in the meta that is a weak, low power, probably normal type move, that has a circumstantial secondary effect which makes it invaluable, that is otherwise completely useless and ridiculous to use on any poke - but instead catapults pokemon up entire tears because people need it to deal with the definitely not centralizing factor it can deal with. Surely. It probably wouldn't have 20 base power or something either.

And if luck is game breaking, why isn't confuse ray teared away again?

 

[Dark Azelf]

lol dying

Yes; why would all those low power useless bar one scenario moves ever be useful outside of that one situation where their circumstantial secondary effect provides a significant benefit?
Surely; there is no move currently used very commonly in the meta due *solely* to the popularity of another dominant factor in the meta that is a weak, low power, probably normal type move, that has a circumstantial secondary effect which makes it invaluable, that is otherwise completely useless and ridiculous to use on any poke - but instead catapults pokemon up entire tears because people need it to deal with the definitely not centralizing factor it can deal with. Surely. It probably wouldn't have 20 base power or something either.

And if luck is game breaking, why isn't confuse ray teared away again?

Can we please not use logical fallacies.

Rapid Spin (the weak move ill assume you're referring to) also removes Spikes, Toxic Spikes, SR, Leech Seed, Trapping moves aka does more that one thing so justifies its use etc. It doesnt have a single other use like Aerial Ace, Faint Attack etc does lol. Nor is it outclassed otherwise by other moves.

And if luck is game breaking, why isn't confuse ray teared away again?

#SWAG

edit: also

#Moody

 

[Yoshikko]

The main flaw of competitive battling in general is the huge luck factor. There's always that slight chance of a critical hit that can heavily alter the outcome of a battle. Additionally, moves which have a small chance of inflicting a status condition are annoying to deal with, and can sometimes alter the outcome of a battle as well. In all honesty, the metagame would probably be a bit better if the only luck factor involved in battles are the low or high damage rolls--no critical hits, no 30% chance to burn, no 30% chance to miss. Everything is almost predetermined and there wouldn't be any stupid strategies--just pure team building and battling skill.

it sucks but it's an uncertainty and you can't rely on it, you can't exactly build a team around that. i feel like the uncertainty keeps some fluidity in playing, like idk if that makes sense but it adds another layer to it. it's not fun if you can always just predict the outcome.

i agree that there is literally no skill in trapping moves and it's kind of a cheap way out. had no trouble with gothitelle actually but all of my hate for magnezone :p

 

[Nah]

'K can moves with 90% and 95% accuracy plz just be boosted to 100% accuracy?Because it's annoying as hell when those moves miss.

Or at least Fire Blast? It misses for me so much more than it should (especially when I don't want it to)...... >=[