Gen V - Metagame Speculation Thread

[Dark Azelf]

Woah wait a minute there.

Shandera is pretty much raped by ScarfTar.

Ok, but remember it gets Will-o-Wisp.

Blissey or maybe even Chansey with that new pre-evolution stone can handle it, bulky waters like Suicune and Hydration Vaporeon can deal with it pretty well too. Mamanbou, Kerudio, and even that ghost jellyfish can probably do a good job at checking it as well.

The ghost/water jellyfish wont check it seeing as you know, it gets wasted by shadow ball. :/ lol Not only that but by the time you can "check it" with those it will probably have multiple calm minds since it wont try and trap them - it will set up on things which cannot touch it. Like Chansey and Blissey....


Of course, Shadow Tag could prove me wrong, but look at poor Duggy, he didn't go to Ubers just because of Arena Trap. Wooby and Wynaut only went to Ubers because Shadow Tag + Counter/MirrorCoat is amazing. If you ask me, this is Ryhperior all over again, I remember clearly when everyone thought his 140 Base Atk would send him to Ubers, hell, I was even one of those people.

WRONG. Duggy isnt uber because it only traps grounded pokemon. Wobby traps EVERYTHING. Wobby also removes your 5 options of attack/attack/attack/attack/switch to just 1 attack. It can also take ANYTHING out of the game at will as the user sees fit at will, either with the incredibly broken Tickle + CB Pursuit ( Pursuit from CB Tar OHKO's -6 def Skarmory who resists the move), making you set up fodder with Encore, even counters lose to the poke they are meant to beat because of Wob (ive seen logs where Gyarados sets up on a Vappy locked into Wish with Encore), or just simply eliminating them with encore + CounterCoat. Face a good Wobby user and you will see what i mean.

​

Seriously though, Shanderra can and will switch in on things that cannot touch it (this eliminates choice users locked into any of the moves that is resists for a start), set up a sub and get +6 +6 on it with a sub up. Please tell me how you can even come back from that lol. ~_~

Anyway we shouldn't be talking about counters or checks, they are moot with shanderra, since it eliminates switching.

The only glimpse of hope is that Shadow Tag hasnt been released yet on Shanderra so it wont be in the metagame for a good while.

 

[SuperiorCat]

Seriously though, Shanderra can and will switch in on things that cannot touch it (this eliminates choice users locked into any of the moves that is resists for a start), set up a sub and get +6 +6 on it with a sub up. Please tell me how you can even come back from that lol. ~_~

Anyway we shouldn't be talking about counters or checks, they are moot with shanderra, since it eliminates switching.

The only glimpse of hope is that Shadow Tag hasnt been released yet on Shanderra so it wont be in the metagame for a good while.

Touche?

Actually, you seem to be over estimating Shanderaa, and I'm rather diappointed that you've simply dismissed Tyranitar as a counter by saying that will-o-wisp can deal with him, seeing as ScarfTar can outspeed. Plus, It's very unlikely to predict a switch in to an unseen T-tar and aimlessly go for WoW, don't you agree? Of course, I imagine ScarfTar would switch in as a revenge killer.
As far as I'm aware, Shanderaa has no safe or reliable way to boost It's abysmal speed. There is NitroCharge but that isn't completely reliable and doesn't benefit from CM or Shanderaa's beefy Sp.Atk.
So let's just imagine a battle, Shanderaa is setting up against Nattorei, for example. It manages to get +6 SpAtk, and +6 SpDef. Nattorei faints, in comes Scarf Tyranitar, then you have 2 options, Crunch or Pursuit. Crunch will do 122% - 144.4% to Shanderaa, and even if Shanderaa has max Def EV's (which it shouldn't), it will do 94.6% - 112%, which is still a strong chance of a KO, and a guarantee if you consider entry hazards. So Tyranitar has the power to force Shanderaa to switch with Crunch unless it wants to face a KO. There is also Pursuit, which can guarantee a KO if Shanderaa attempts to switch. So it all comes down to prediction, but Crunch can guarantee that Shanderaa stays out of you hair.
Another thing that Shanderaa lacks is a decent recovery move, there is still Rest, but without access to Sleep Talk, It's not advisable.
And considering Shanderaa's weakness to Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark and Water (all of which are very common types in the metagame), there are a lot of things that can check Shanderaa, and without a reliable recovery move, Shanderaa isn't going to be enjoying switching in with SR, and It's defences can't take much in the OU environment.
​

 

[blaQk]

Touche?

Actually, you seem to be over estimating Shanderaa, and I'm rather diappointed that you've simply dismissed Tyranitar as a counter by saying that will-o-wisp can deal with him, seeing as ScarfTar can outspeed. Plus, It's very unlikely to predict a switch in to an unseen T-tar and aimlessly go for WoW, don't you agree? Of course, I imagine ScarfTar would switch in as a revenge killer.
As far as I'm aware, Shanderaa has no safe or reliable way to boost It's abysmal speed. There is NitroCharge but that isn't completely reliable and doesn't benefit from CM or Shanderaa's beefy Sp.Atk.
So let's just imagine a battle, Shanderaa is setting up against Nattorei, for example. It manages to get +6 SpAtk, and +6 SpDef. Nattorei faints, in comes Scarf Tyranitar, then you have 2 options, Crunch or Pursuit. Crunch will do 122% - 144.4% to Shanderaa, and even if Shanderaa has max Def EV's (which it shouldn't), it will do 94.6% - 112%, which is still a strong chance of a KO, and a guarantee if you consider entry hazards. So Tyranitar has the power to force Shanderaa to switch with Crunch unless it wants to face a KO. There is also Pursuit, which can guarantee a KO if Shanderaa attempts to switch. So it all comes down to prediction, but Crunch can guarantee that Shanderaa stays out of you hair.
Another thing that Shanderaa lacks is a decent recovery move, there is still Rest, but without access to Sleep Talk, It's not advisable.
And considering Shanderaa's weakness to Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark and Water (all of which are very common types in the metagame), there are a lot of things that can check Shanderaa, and without a reliable recovery move, Shanderaa isn't going to be enjoying switching in with SR. It's defences can't take much in the OU environment.
​

I think you totally missed the point that Shandera is behind a sub. A +6 +6 Shandera behind a sub is pretty much impossible to deal with and at least guarantees two kills (the pokemon it set-up on and the switch in).

 

[Aurafire]

Touche?

Actually, you seem to be over estimating Shanderaa, and I'm rather diappointed that you've simply dismissed Tyranitar as a counter by saying that will-o-wisp can deal with him, seeing as ScarfTar can outspeed. Plus, It's very unlikely to predict a switch in to an unseen T-tar and aimlessly go for WoW, don't you agree? Of course, I imagine ScarfTar would switch in as a revenge killer.
As far as I'm aware, Shanderaa has no safe or reliable way to boost It's abysmal speed. There is NitroCharge but that isn't completely reliable and doesn't benefit from CM or Shanderaa's beefy Sp.Atk.
So let's just imagine a battle, Shanderaa is setting up against Nattorei, for example. It manages to get +6 SpAtk, and +6 SpDef. Nattorei faints, in comes Scarf Tyranitar, then you have 2 options, Crunch or Pursuit. Crunch will do 122% - 144.4% to Shanderaa, and even if Shanderaa has max Def EV's (which it shouldn't), it will do 94.6% - 112%, which is still a strong chance of a KO, and a guarantee if you consider entry hazards. So Tyranitar has the power to force Shanderaa to switch with Crunch unless it wants to face a KO. There is also Pursuit, which can guarantee a KO if Shanderaa attempts to switch. So it all comes down to prediction, but Crunch can guarantee that Shanderaa stays out of you hair.
Another thing that Shanderaa lacks is a decent recovery move, there is still Rest, but without access to Sleep Talk, It's not advisable.
And considering Shanderaa's weakness to Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark and Water (all of which are very common types in the metagame), there are a lot of things that can check Shanderaa, and without a reliable recovery move, Shanderaa isn't going to be enjoying switching in with SR, and It's defences can't take much in the OU environment.
​

You're assuming that the player using Shanderaa is completely clueless to the fact that T-tar is a major threat. Everything you said is valid, but smart players will be able to deal with it. I think you're severely underestimating the power of Shadow Tag and 145 base special attack. D_A already showed you an example of how it's an extremely powerful ability, regardless of Shanderaa's weaknesses.

 

[SuperiorCat]

I think you totally missed the point that Shandera is behind a sub. A +6 +6 Shandera behind a sub is pretty much impossible to deal with and at least guarantees two kills (the pokemon it set-up on and the switch in).

Ok, I'll accept the fact that I seem to have blanked the word 'sub' in Dark Azelf's post. Somethings that we are overlooking is anything that Shanderaa does feel safe switching into can still have the possibility of carrying Shed Shell/U-turn/Volt Change.
And I feel the need to point out Shanderaa's abysmal speed again, most things can outspeed and break it's sub whilst It's setting up, which is where It's weaknesses being common types in the metagame really start to show.
This situation also reminds me of what Breloom does to unprepared teams. Where you need two checks and one for sleep fodder to take care of Breloom, one to get rid of the sub and one to force a switch/kill.

At this point, I might be over thinking things, and grasping onto false hope just because I don't want to admit defeat. But after reading some interesting posts on Smogon, it seems that testing to determine which Pokemon get placed in which tiers has begun privately on PO. From various opinions Shanderaa doesn't seem to be as Uber as people think.
​

 

[Kazuhiro]

especially as it's set-up fodder for many things, mainly any fire type.

Fire, and only Fire. He has 10 resistances plus an immunity to poison, so I don't see him being a fodder for anything than Fire and maybe Fighting type.

Other than that, it really seems like he is the ''better Forretress''. His 20 base speed gives him a stronger Gyro Ball and his Grass typing makes him a good counter to Swampert as he can also have Seed Bomb // Power Whip in his arsenal. His 10 resistances and good special defense stats will make him a great overall tank for his teammate too.

i'm curious to how Arcanine will perform with both Close Combat and Wild Bolt in its arsenal. while he can definitely give some devastating hits with CB, the recoil plus SR damage is not in his favor. besides, with so many ability resistances lingering around, prediction can be deadly. and Life Orb? i'm not so sure Arcanine needs more. if perhaps Arcanine got a couple DDs BP'd to him, then he'd be a viable late-game sweeper with LO, but 1) he still gets walled and promptly KOd by Dragons and 2) how the hell are you gonna safely pass Arcanine 2 DDs? lol doggie has it tough ='(

Imo, CB Arcanine will do a little better than he did before. Wild Bolt will help him OHKO or 2HKO bulky waters that Thunder Fang couldn't even touch. Close Combat will cover his Rock weakness better than Iron Head // Iron Tail did. It's true, though, that the recoil he will receive will be suicidal, so he might need some Wish Support from the likes of Vaporeon. Doggie has it tough, indeed.

 

[Aurafire]

I wouldn't call 80 base speed abysmal. 80 is about the average for OU right now, and it still allows it to outspeed almost every wall and set up on them.

Anyway:

#645 Randorosu

Typing: Ground / Flying

Ability: Sand Power: Pokemon's Rock-, Steel-, and Ground-type attacks have their damage boosted in a sandstorm.

Dream World Ability: Encourage: Attacks gain power, but lose their secondary effect.

Base Stats: HP: 89 Attack: 125 Defense: 90 Special Attack: 115 Special Defense: 80 Speed: 101

Randorosu looks like it'll be very entertaining as a SD sweeper in the sand. 101 base speed and 115 base sp attack only add to its versatility, making its choice and mixed sets very viable. This thing looks pretty beast.

 

[Livewire]

Touche?

Actually, you seem to be over estimating Shanderaa, and I'm rather diappointed that you've simply dismissed Tyranitar as a counter by saying that will-o-wisp can deal with him, seeing as ScarfTar can outspeed. Plus, It's very unlikely to predict a switch in to an unseen T-tar and aimlessly go for WoW, don't you agree? Of course, I imagine ScarfTar would switch in as a revenge killer.
As far as I'm aware, Shanderaa has no safe or reliable way to boost It's abysmal speed. There is NitroCharge but that isn't completely reliable and doesn't benefit from CM or Shanderaa's beefy Sp.Atk.
So let's just imagine a battle, Shanderaa is setting up against Nattorei, for example. It manages to get +6 SpAtk, and +6 SpDef. Nattorei faints, in comes Scarf Tyranitar, then you have 2 options, Crunch or Pursuit. Crunch will do 122% - 144.4% to Shanderaa, and even if Shanderaa has max Def EV's (which it shouldn't), it will do 94.6% - 112%, which is still a strong chance of a KO, and a guarantee if you consider entry hazards. So Tyranitar has the power to force Shanderaa to switch with Crunch unless it wants to face a KO. There is also Pursuit, which can guarantee a KO if Shanderaa attempts to switch. So it all comes down to prediction, but Crunch can guarantee that Shanderaa stays out of you hair.
Another thing that Shanderaa lacks is a decent recovery move, there is still Rest, but without access to Sleep Talk, It's not advisable.
And considering Shanderaa's weakness to Ground, Rock, Ghost, Dark and Water (all of which are very common types in the metagame), there are a lot of things that can check Shanderaa, and without a reliable recovery move, Shanderaa isn't going to be enjoying switching in with SR, and It's defences can't take much in the OU environment.
​

Shandera can also pack HP Fighting, Focus Blast, Energy Ball and HP Ground, all which obliterate TTar. I think you're measuring it against the current OU enviroment, which Nintendo just took a dump on. We'll see after we get the English games up and running.

Shandera has pretty decent defenses for a Ghost type, and it has the movepool to be an OU staple. Not uber, because of common weaks and meh speed, but something in UU running around with 427 SpA won't happen either. It'll be in OU.

 

[luke]

How is a pokemon going to SWITCH into Shanderaa while its setting up with shadow tag? A smart player isn't going to start setting up until they've scouted the enemy team for shed shell and dealt with it accordingly. I feel like you're UNDERESTIMATING Shanderaa.

 

[Impo]

i wanna see what sharpedo cooks up in Gen V,
it and Blaziken steal ninjasks speed boost,
paired with 120 base atk i reckon it can move up a tier or two,
but it still has a shallow movepool :/
i wanna try this moveset in competitive play;

Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Adamant | Speed Boost
4HP | 252Atk | 252 Spd
Night Slash | Focus Energy | Slash/Earthquake | Waterfall

i reckon it might work.... actually, no, it probably won't

 

[blaQk]

but something in UU running around with 427 SpA won't happen either

Rhyperior and Alakazam say derp derp. ;/

 

[Livewire]

Rhyperior and Alakazam say derp derp. ;/

But 416 Att and 405 SpA =/= 427. ;/

 

[blaQk]

But 416 Att and 405 SpA =/= 427. ;/

Because an average of 16.5 points really makes a difference, lololol.

Edit: Bad.

 

[Livewire]

Because an average of 16.5 points really makes a difference, lololol.

Well, If a certain sweepers stats' are lowered by 16.5 points, they wouldn't be able to 2HKO their metagame threats, so yes, It matters.

Notice how on the P-mixed Infernape set, It needs the extra 44 SpA EV's to be able to 2HKO its main OU checks (Vaporeon and Hippowdon) with Grass Knot. No extra 44 EV's, no 2HKO on them with that attack. I believe 44 Ev's= 11 stat points. 11<16. That matters.

Baaaack on topic, I still think Shanderaa will solidly be OU. Don't forget to factor in its gen V. moves like Evil Eye, Nitro Charge,(Even though Its physical, still a speed boost) etc.

 

[blaQk]

Well, If certain sweepers stats' are lowered by 16.5 points, they wouldn't be able to OHKO their metagame threats, so yes, It matters.

Notice how on the P-mixed Infernape set, It needs the extra 44 SpA EV's to be able to 2HKO its main OU checks (Vaporeon and Hippowdon) with Grass Knot. No extra 44 EV's, no 2HKO on them with that attack. I believe 44 Ev's= 11 stat points. 11<16. That matters.

First of all, there isn't a OU set with 44 SP ATK EVs listed. :s

Secondly, uh, I'm not going to run damage calculations, but generally speaking, Vaporeon is never 2HKOed by an Infernape, let alone one packing only 44 SP ATK EVs. I also don't think Hippowdon is either. If he is, he can survive at least one and the butt hump Infernape with Earthquake, so I don't know what you're talking about.

In very rare cases do you ever find the need for an extra ~16 ATK/SP ATK points for whatever reason. Speed on the other hand is an entirely different story.

 

[Livewire]

First of all, there isn't a OU set with 44 SP ATK EVs listed. :s

Secondly, uh, I'm not going to run damage calculations, but generally speaking, Vaporeon is never 2HKOed by an Infernape, let alone one packing only 44 SP ATK EVs. I also don't think Hippowdon is either. If he is, he can survive at least one and the butt hump Infernape with Earthquake, so I don't know what you're talking about.

In very rare cases do you ever find the need for an extra ~16 ATK/SP ATK points for whatever reason. Speed on the other hand is an entirely different story.

Well unless this in an Ubers set, although ive never heard of it in ubers much.

Physical Mixed Attacker

Life Orb Naive / Hasty Moveset EVs ~ Close Combat
~ U-turn / Grass Knot
~ Stone Edge / Mach Punch
~ Overheat

252 Atk / 64 SpA / 192 Spe

While this set may not have the super effective type coverage of the specially-based mix set, it does have several things going for it. Due to its high Base Power, Close Combat becomes quite a bit more damaging than on the special set, and this set's Overheat is very nearly as strong as the special-based set's Fire Blast (less than a 2% difference in damage). Stone Edge makes this set much more deadly against Gyarados, and when also considering the fact that Infernape's Close Combat will easily 2HKO Vaporeon and Milotic after Stealth Rock damage, it is clear that losing Grass Knot is not a huge blow. Mach Punch is a decent option over Stone Edge, ensuring that your team will not be swept by Lucario, and providing some insurance against Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Weavile, and Agility Empoleon as well.
U-turn is really the key to this set, as it ensures that the few Pokemon who can safely switch into this set are dealt with by other members of your team. Additionally, max Attack U-turn allows Infernape to become a versatile early-game attacker, forcing switches to rack up Stealth Rock damage and scout the opponent's team. Keep in mind also that many of the primary switch-ins to Infernape are Flying-types; they will take 25% damage from Stealth Rock as you switch to a counter and force them to come in with under 50% health the next time. Even Starmie, who frequently switches into Infernape, will lose over half its health to U-turn, and you will be able to switch in an appropriate counter.
If you are willing to sacrifice some physical power, you can move 80 EVs from Attack to Special Attack (for a total of 144), and give Infernape Grass Knot instead of U-turn. This will allow Infernape to 2HKO Suicune and Hippowdon, and OHKO Swampert most of the time. In effect, you exchange the scouting ability of U-turn for better coverage, albeit with less physical power.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Suicune, not Vaporeon, and 144 EVs (ie. adding 80, 20 points in the stat). It still takes like 3/4 hits to kill Vappy. I'd know, I use a max Sp. Nasty Plot Infernape, and +2 Knot only hits like 60%.

Also, 2HKO is completely moot as, without epic entry hazards on their side and/or screens on yours, both those Pokemon OHKO you and survive on ~50% HP, easily enough to heal off with Slack Off or Rest (?). as such, those EVs don't really do much; don't use Grass Knot on that MixApe.

 

[blaQk]

Well unless this in an Ubers set, although ive never heard of it in ubers much.

Physical Mixed Attacker

Life Orb Naive / Hasty Moveset EVs ~ Close Combat
~ U-turn / Grass Knot
~ Stone Edge / Mach Punch
~ Overheat

252 Atk / 64 SpA / 192 Spe

While this set may not have the super effective type coverage of the specially-based mix set, it does have several things going for it. Due to its high Base Power, Close Combat becomes quite a bit more damaging than on the special set, and this set's Overheat is very nearly as strong as the special-based set's Fire Blast (less than a 2% difference in damage). Stone Edge makes this set much more deadly against Gyarados, and when also considering the fact that Infernape's Close Combat will easily 2HKO Vaporeon and Milotic after Stealth Rock damage, it is clear that losing Grass Knot is not a huge blow. Mach Punch is a decent option over Stone Edge, ensuring that your team will not be swept by Lucario, and providing some insurance against Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Weavile, and Agility Empoleon as well.
U-turn is really the key to this set, as it ensures that the few Pokemon who can safely switch into this set are dealt with by other members of your team. Additionally, max Attack U-turn allows Infernape to become a versatile early-game attacker, forcing switches to rack up Stealth Rock damage and scout the opponent's team. Keep in mind also that many of the primary switch-ins to Infernape are Flying-types; they will take 25% damage from Stealth Rock as you switch to a counter and force them to come in with under 50% health the next time. Even Starmie, who frequently switches into Infernape, will lose over half its health to U-turn, and you will be able to switch in an appropriate counter.
If you are willing to sacrifice some physical power, you can move 80 EVs from Attack to Special Attack (for a total of 144), and give Infernape Grass Knot instead of U-turn. This will allow Infernape to 2HKO Suicune and Hippowdon, and OHKO Swampert most of the time. In effect, you exchange the scouting ability of U-turn for better coverage, albeit with less physical power.

Every Vappy I've ran takes a sweaty poop on Infernape.

Also, last I checked, Close Combat is physical, lol.

And like I said, he get's butt humped by Earthquake.

Suicune, not Vaporeon, and 144 EVs (ie. adding 80, 20 points in the stat). It still takes like 3/4 hits to kill Vappy. I'd know, I use a max Sp. Nasty Plot Infernape, and +2 Knot only hits like 60%.

Also, 2HKO is completely moot as, without epic entry hazards on their side and/or screens on yours, both those Pokemon OHKO you and survive on ~50% HP, easily enough to heal off with Slack Off or Rest (?). as such, those EVs don't really do much; don't use Grass Knot on that MixApe.

^

(I'm too tired to put much effort in this so I'ma quote you, sexy.)

 

[Opposite Day]

Vaporeon is ohko'd by a np focus blast w/ sr though :x
(94.4% - 111.2%)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I have to say, I'm really hoping Shadow Tag gets banned. I want to use Nattorei so badly, but once we get a DW Shandera released, it's going to be forced to run Shed Shell, limiting its options. Annoying, I've finally gotten the grass-steel I've always wanted, and it's guaranteed set-up fodder for something that's borderline broken.