Bedlam Beldum said:
Arguments like this show me you're ignoring facts and would rather go about choosing what you would accept as important or not. No, we will not ignore Hariyama, and I find it ironic that you decided to ignore Metagross, Scizor, and even Bronzong. It's not the best example, but Hariyama was considered the best Weavile counter, and now Weavile gets past it. There is no arguing this, there is nothing you can say to make this false. It is true, like it or not, whether it's important is another story, but the way you're speaking it's as if Hariyama never countered Weavile in the first place =/
I'm not ignoring the facts, I'm saying that Hariyama is hardly viable at all in OU play and sees almost no usage, so why even bring it up? Yeah that's one more thing it beats, but it's so rare that it's not even notable. If you want to act like I'm being selective to support my argument, you can, but you can't actually be implying that Hariyama is relevant to Weavile's effectiveness in the metagame in any way, shape, or form? An obscure UU Pokemon doesn't mean anything. Scizor and the OU Steels do, but not Hariyama.
And no, I'm not ignoring Metagross, Scizor, or Bronzong. First of all, Weavile can't beat either one if they have Bullet Punch, which is always on Scizor and is on over half of Metagross. But I never disagreed that Weavile hits them way harder than before. All I said was that Hariyama is ridiculous to bring up (it is) because of how irrelevant it is in the grand scheme of things. I'm not arguing against D_A's entire argument since I don't disagree with all of it. I "ignored" them because I'm not arguing that point. The only thing I said was that Hariyama is not relevant. Wow, I'm repeating myself, but come on. And no, Hariyama was never the best Weavile counter. Skarmory is better for sure...not like it really matters, but I never knew Hariyama was ever in any Weavile discussion to be honest.
Bedlam Beldum said:
We knew this. Even if Weavile isn't that much more effective, it is more viable since it gets past it's counters. End of story.
I don't get why you think this, so you'll have to elaborate. But Weavile's job is to revenge kill. As a pure revenge killer, how does Low Kick help it do its job better? That's what I'm getting at. Low Kick matters for making Weavile more effective as far as not being dead weight is concerned and making an impact on the battle, but as far as revenge killing is concerned (AKA the only reason people use Weavile to begin with given its horrid disadvantages), Low Kick doesn't help it. That's all I'm arguing lol.
Now let's recap so you don't misunderstand what I'm saying again:
- Low Kick helps hit Weavile's counters for more damage, though it often won't beat them (Metagross, Scizor, sometimes Bronzong). And of course, you have to predict very well to make use out of it. This is true with any CBer, but it is especially true for something as SR weak, frail, and relied on (as all revenge killers are in most cases) as Weavile.
- You can't argue that this will somehow make Weavile better at its job. It will make it more of a pain to stop, but it doesn't actually help it revenge kill at all.
If you want to disagree with me, disagree with one of those two points...or I guess that Hariyama shouldn't even be mentioned, but you have to realize that that's a slippery slope given how many obscure UU Pokemon can counter a few top threats (not like Weavile is a top threat or really even a threat at all with Scizor always running around). I still have no idea how you can hype Weavile more now when it still isn't very good at the one job it's supposed to do.