How do YOU break stall?

[Calum.]

yeah it might just be that with me as well

and I cant tell whether you are being sarcastic or not

 

[Malicious Metang]

yeah it might just be that with me as well

and I cant tell whether you are being sarcastic or not

I was being honest, that was hilarious.

But yeah, stall is pretty difficult to stop nowadays, as people are getting creative and have stopped believing that Obistall is the only viable format.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Once their Phazers are gone, I can walk all over a stall team with Curselax, usually.
SpAtk Sceptile with HP Fire is a nice one to rip apart most defensive Pokes like Skarm, Forry, Pert, and Cune. Just gotta take Blissey out first, which isn't too hard with a Heatran Explosion or something.

 

[Anti]

The reason Outrage Mix Mence isnt good against stall is because it RELIEVES the offensive pressure. It gives Forry and Skarm a chance to come in and spin away that SR, set their own Hazards up and do what ever they want. New Mixmence also loses 41% of its health JUST from attacking once (SS+LO+SR). That also puts you in Brave Bird range for Skarm...lol

I use Bold blissey

Spoiler:

before anyone says anything

and Outrage doesnt come anywhere close to OHKOing (47.2% - 55.8% <-- 16 att neutral mixmence aka the new standard vs 252 def/0 hp Bold blissey and vs calm it does 51.6% - 60.8%, not exactly the end of the world bliss can still wall after this) so even if you predict correctly i still have like 90 other things that can take the weak Outrage after and then set up.

Really Classic Mixmence is 1000000x a better stall breaker than new mence is, mainly because it doesnt basically sign itself up to a death warrant by locking itself in and can Roost off SR damage so it can actually stick around.

Even DD Mence is a better stall breaker than New Mixmence is, mainly because of the new fad of Sp.Def Careful Forry (Relaxed Max sp.def is btw since it doesnt get 2hko'd by DD LO Outrage and CB Weavile Low Kick) who gets, as said, 2hko'd by that same DD LO Outrage. It also cant be revenged and doesnt nerf itself after attacking (-2 sp.att and/or locked into a WEAK rage).

New Mixmence is prolly better against bulky offense or maybe not but this thread is about what breaks stall so thats irrelevant.

But Outrage is a finishing move anyway. No one in their right mind is going to Outrage with Forretress and Skarmory around unless a really good opportunity presents itself. If you're playing vs. stall and it's new mixmence vs blissey and it comes in with 60% health from Draco + SR (common scenario, trust me), it's really not very difficult to catch the Skarm switch-in and kill it with a weakened but still potent Flamethrower. You're basically calling New MixMence horrible because it has Outrage, but that's actually optional to use and should only be used for mid game sweeping anyway. You seem to be locked into the mindset that every time Blissey comes into the battle Salamence has to Outrage, but that's not really how it works.

Also, don't really know who ran those calcs =\. Have a look:

310 Atk vs 130 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 399 - 471 (55.88% - 65.97%)

Max/Max Blissey (which is less common than Calm) can't even take that hit. And in case you're wondering what it is against 0 HP/252 def calm bliss:

310 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 436 - 514 (66.97% - 78.96%)

So no, Blissey isn't going to outstall Outrage unless you take a HUGE risk and Protect two straight times (AKA you suck at using stall teams).

This is in fact relevant to this thread since New MixMence has been for me very effective at breaking a stall team wide open once a Pokemon or two has died. At full strength, it can't do anything, but nothing can beat a stall team at full strength so I mean...that's not something you can really argue. It's also a great lure because of Outrage's weakness as I outlined above. I've caught a few Skarms coming in on it.

But your main point is that Outrage is easy to set up on. This is true for all teams, yet most everyone (including you iirc) agrees that Outrage is one of the best moves in the game despite that...and it is. In other words, I think you're overrating its downside. Yeah, two layers of Spikes sucks, but a lot of people Toxic Spikes proof their team, and by extension Spikes don't hurt many things except stuff that can't hurt stall much like Heatran and CB Scizor (assuming Blissey is played well). It's not like vs heavy offense where Gyarados comes in, gets a DD, and then just massacres you. You really CAN recover from Spikes pretty easily.

More importantly, A Skarmory setting up Spikes is also a Skarmory that is giving *insert sweeper here* a free switch-in. If you Whirlwind and stack up damage, more power to you (unless Salamence uses Flamethrower lol), but something is still coming in. And since MixMence shouldn't be trying to break stall early anyways, it will be much easier for holes to exploit since they should be there already.

Another thing: Blissey can be Pursuited, which essentially eliminates the NEED for Outrage (and really you never need it). Blissey is easy to bait with Explosion and everything else. Opening up Draco is very nifty. I've played about 4 or 5 semi-stall teams on the ladder (since I never ladder this is a lot for me), and every time I blow up Blissey with Gengar and then they're very vulnerable.

Lastly, it really bugged me that you said that Classic MixMence is better at breaking stall. It's really really terrible at it though since it doesn't pose a threat at all after a Draco Meteor. Unless it's using a weak unSTABed attack, it's basically attacking once and getting out quickly. Roost rarely helps since breaking stall isn't about surviving, it's about killing. Yeah, keeping your stall breaker around longer is good, but it still has trouble breaking common stall members like Tentacruel and Blissey. Maybe I was using it wrong or something, but Draco Meteor is basically the only thing going for Classic MixMence against stall teams. At least New MixMence actually has some versatility.


Conclusion: Yeah New MixMence sucks vs stall if you try to do too much with it and use it wrong, but um it's actually really good once it has room to work with. And every offensive stall breaker (aka things that aren't stuff like the Mismagius posted earlier) needs to have something batter the core a bit before it can have an impact. The same is true of New MixMence, and holding it to the standard of "well it should beat *insert solid defensive combo here*" is absurd and unreasonable. Just because it has Outrage doesn't mean it's suddenly impotent against stall teams. After all, Outraging against a team with 2 healthy Steel-types and a Hippowdon is really stupid.

EDIT: and the point still stands that if Outrage KOes something that opens up a hole for a given sweeper, Spikes stacks don't matter a whole lot lol.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Whilst its true that no one pokemon can beat stall, this pokemon im about to show you CAN beat the majority of common stall pokemon with just a little SR support.

Meet Druid Cruel, this set dates back from G/S/C (even in RBY, he was doing his thing of mix sweeping)

Lately ive been using this set again and its a very effective stall breaker and even being able to suck up Toxic Spikes makes it even more of a pain.

@Life Orb
252 ATT / 80 SP.ATT / 176 SPEED
Lonely Nature
Trait : Clear Body
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab
- Hydro Pump
- Waterfall

"Oh mediocre attack stats and base 100 speed, no thanks id rather use mence or infernape"

Whilst you might say that, just look at these calcs against your common stall pokemon.

Hydro Pump Vs 252 HP / 0 S.Def Neutral Hippowdon 87.1% - 102.9%

Hydro Pump Vs 252 hp / 252 sp.def Neutral Forretress 46.9% - 55.4%

Hydro Pump Vs 252 HP/0 S.Def Neutral Skarmory 61.4% - 72.8%

+2 LO Waterfall Vs Max HP/Max Def Bold Blissey 63.0% - 74.1%

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs Max hp / Max Def Bold Celebi 88.1% - 104.5%

Hydro Pump Vs Max Hp/ 0 SP.def Neutral Swampert 41.6% - 49.0%
Hydro Pump Vs 252 HP / 80 Def Neutral Rotom-A 44.41% - 52.30%

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs Max HP / Max Def Impish Gyarados 52.5% - 61.9%

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs Max HP / Max Def Suicune 40.1% - 47.5

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs 252 hp / 116 Def Latias 65.4% - 77.5%

+2 LO Waterfall Vs 252 HP / 120 Def foe Tentacruel 40.9% - 48.4%

(Tell me if i missed anything important im tired lol)

With SR up all these pokemon are either 2hko'd or OHKO'd. Only Swampert has a small chance to live more than 2 hits from this set.

Now dont forget, that most of these pokemon dont even pose an immediate threat to Tentacruel due to its typing and the ones that can survive more than 2 hits cant even touch Tentacruel (see defensive Suicune).

In addition, its base 100 speed (this beats adamant Lucario might i add) makes it a threat even outside of stall breaking. Surprisingly little can wall this set effectively. People should use this guy more, seriously lol

 

[Syaoran]

You only need to assign 2 of your pokemon to somehow "beat stall". Taunt Gyara is usually great at that because he can set up in the process. Celebi is also a good option with Leech Seed, U-turn, and the rare Perish Song. Trick is probably my least favourite tool for breaking stall, because it works only once and you better know when to use it. The best thing imo is mixed sweepers like Salamence because they force the opposing team for some switches, while at least weakening one of their key pokemon so it is easily finished off the next time.
The method is finding out which of their stall pokemon is the one "blocking" your game and preventing you from winning. Exploders usually help a lot in the process when you know you won't need them for that specific game since they'll get totally countered.

 

[Anti]

Don't you think +2 Poison Jab is a little unrealistic vs. Gyarados given Intimidate?

+1 calc is this:

393 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (80 Base Power): 104 - 123 (26.40% - 31.22%)

 

[Lila]

https://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/clear_body

 

[Anti]

https://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/clear_body

Hahaha silly me.

I really don't buy that it's a threat against offense though since like, everything beats it lol (if you really want me to elaborate I will).

Lastly, how long does it last? Obviously Toxic Spikes don't bother it (though they suck anyway), but Spikes + SR + SS + LO recoil probably sucks. It sure does with MixMence but I figure I'd ask since I haven't used this set (as the above post shows lol).

 

[Dark Azelf]

Hahaha silly me.

I really don't buy that it's a threat against offense though since like, everything beats it lol (if you really want me to elaborate I will).

Lastly, how long does it last? Obviously Toxic Spikes don't bother it (though they suck anyway), but Spikes + SR + SS + LO recoil probably sucks. It sure does with MixMence but I figure I'd ask since I haven't used this set (as the above post shows lol).

Well its pretty fast, i mean 280 speed isnt the best buts its still pretty cool against offense. Ive also OHKO'd several Kingdra and Gyarados who seem to like switching in against it with SD LO Poison Jab lol

Its best to bring out later game i find when everything is worn down with SR a bit thats when it shines. It really gets ample opportunities to switch in. Idk, it might be just me but its actually done pretty well for me so far, i mean you can always pass it wish or something too if you are scared about it living long, ive tried Reflect (and dual screen) support and that works very nicely too. Although if you try it you would probably hate it haha, but yeah it demolishes most stall teams these days. Just watch out for puedo stall and their scarf tar and scarf rotoms and scarf jirachi with t-punch and other bs. >:/ Although they are quite easy to wear down since most p-stall teams dont have wish from what ive seen. Oh and the occasional fast gliscor too obv but that cant really switch in lol :/

Its not "zomg ubar, this is the new scizor" but it does way better than what you expect and deserves more credit. =[

 

[ABYAY]

D_A, I love that Tenta set, and I might actually use it on my upcoming team.

Honestly, stall has always given me problems and figuring out how to break it is a pain. Sub-Roost Nite owns D_A. Use it. However, my method a long time ago was...

Break the Blissey: Blissey is the biggest pain on stall teams, making special attacks futile while she exists. However, break the egg, and stall teams become less troublesome when you have a Specs user (Tinted Lens SpecsMega especially, should you keep SR off the field.) A few ways to knock Blissey out of the way is to use a lure Pokemon, such as Magnezone or even Heatran, giving it the KO with Explosion when it least expects it. However, with Protect being used a good bit on stall team Blissey, it's best to try to make them waste their protect on something stupid. Obviously, another way is to actually trap it, whether it be Dugtrio or Mean Look. However, this method has become nearly obsolete these days. Still, it's possible.

Hazard resistance: Okay, this can't always be done, but using Pokemon that are resistant to many hazards will help lengthen the lifespan of your team and increase your chance to break stall. If you can't keep SR away, don't use SR weak Pokemon. Flygon is very nice for this; it only takes a measly 6% damage when coming in, even with all hazards out. (This does not mean to use Claydol. There are exceptions to this rule.) Basically, just don't make a team of 6 Pokemon that just can't take hazard damage. At most, use 2 SR weak Pokemon, hopefully with one of them having access to healing.

Prediction: Simple enough, if you know your opponent is going to switch to that Blissey to stop your upcoming Draco Meteor, go to your physical threat and put your opponent in danger instead. (This is more useful if you have your own SR out, making them suffer more damage and potentially netting you a KO.) Be wary of the entry hazards though.

Taunt: Nuff said; if they can't lay down hazards or status your team, then stall teams can't stall. Many Pokemon can Taunt, but it's vital to bring in your taunt user at the right moment, should you use one.

Trick: Trick is very useful for nabbing off some leftovers while swapping them a negative item of your own, or in some cases, swapping that Blissey a Choice Scarf. It can cripple a Pokemon's effectiveness, but remember that you only get one shot to use it to its top potential (unless you get the item back somehow.)

Hax!: Luck of the draw; if you crit when it's important, or their attack misses and puts them in a bad spot, then you may call hax. aka my only way to win. Don't expect to win by hax though, but take it as a compliment or your nightmare.

Well...that's all I can think of for now. Hope these help, though I doubt they will.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I seem to have missed this out. I thought defensive Zapdos was a counter to Druid Cruel, seems i was wrong lol. Just look at these numbers. @_@

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs Max hp / 220 Def Bold Zapdos 53.1% - 62.8%

LO Hydro Pump Vs 252 HP / 0 S.DEF Bold Zapdos 43.8% - 51.6%

+2 LO Poison Jab Vs 252 HP / 0 S.Def Calm Zapdos 73.7% - 87.0% (ROFL)

LO Hydro Pump Vs 0 HP/0 S.DEF Timid Offensive Zapdos 104.0% - 122.7% (Decimated lol)


Again not even the tanky Zapdos can counter this set with SR up.

Generally if you Hydro Pump on the switch its good for scounting and messing up your counters when using this set.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Yeah you pretty much screwed up with that Offensive Zapdos calc:

216 Atk vs 216 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 168 - 198 (52.34% - 61.68%)

80 SpA Tentacruel's Hydro Pump vs. 0 / 0 Zapdos

Hell, even 252 SpA Modest Tentacruel only deals 81% maximum with Hydro Pump, so uh, yeah, what happened?

I know what happened, you kept the +2 boost for the Hydro Pump calc...Noob =/

 

[Dark Azelf]

Yeah you pretty much screwed up with that Offensive Zapdos calc:

216 Atk vs 216 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 168 - 198 (52.34% - 61.68%)

80 SpA Tentacruel's Hydro Pump vs. 0 / 0 Zapdos

Hell, even 252 SpA Modest Tentacruel only deals 81% maximum with Hydro Pump, so uh, yeah, what happened?

I know what happened, you kept the +2 boost for the Hydro Pump calc...Noob =/

I didnt actually keep the +2, which is strange. O.O

 

[sims796]

Well, this metagame is far too imbalanced, not to mention the fact that everyone who ever beats me is a serious hax0rz, but in my humple experience, either stall users I've faced are idiots, or they've never seen a Leech Seed Plume before. Granted, I've only battled, like, 4, but that's four stallers that make me cry out red tears.

And yes, I can tell when you're gonna switch to Celebii. That's why I put HP Bug on Plume, idiot. May be a good idea to check that out before underestimating my relitavley unbalanced team.