Survey: How do you feel about hacks that change the canon?

[wally-217]

I'm talking specifically about changes such as:
- An existing pokemon's stats, type, ability, moveset, evolution method, even evolution line or any other data I haven't thought of
- A move's power, type, effect, etc.
- Fakemon (or specifically, Adding new evolutions (fakemon) to existing lines)

Personally, I don't mind if it's A) Thoughtfully done; B) In moderation; C) Easy to remember.
I'm not going to scoot around the fact that part of the reason for this thread is research for my own hack but I am generally curious as to what the general consensus is. For example, I intend to add a Rhyorn pre-evo (I think it works on a design basis and ties it closer to the Nido line), A Dunsparce (possibly mega) evo, I think cut needs a buff and type change and lastly, I want to switch Butterfree and Venomoth's sprites (and probably just sprites) because I cannot unsee it.


Alternatively is there anything you think should be changed that perhaps isn't?

 

[Murkrow]

Mostly fine with it but all of it should always be documented in a txt/pdf file so that players are aware of the changes from vanilla pokemon.

or have a separate patch that do not include any stat changes for players that prefer to stick to vanilla version.

 

[mymycool9]

I'd like it if hacks add the physical/special split and making it so that Pokemon who normally need trade can just level up but anything else seems unnecessary.

 

[Gandhi Savage]

I actually really enjoy the whole changing current Pokémon and moves, but I'm not much of a fan of Fakémon for the most part. Of course if they are done well, for example Darpole in Pokémon Obsidian, then yeah that's awesome! Unfortunately most aren't amazing.

When it comes to existing Pokémon I really enjoy games like Pokémon Blaze Black/Volt White that tweak them. It was awesome that every Pokémon was optimised and made to be usable. Who doesn't love a buffed Farfetch'd helping you clean house with STAB Close Combat? I for sure find it awesome, as long as it's not broken and doesn't imbalance the game. Cut being a Grass type move, Rock Smash being buffed etc is awesome too!

I just find it awesome, refreshing and fun to play with these updates! Of course it can be done too much for some peoples likings and I completely respect other peoples opinions.​

 

[TopoftheFlops]

I dont like changing of stats because then you have to learn the pokemon all over again and then maybe get them mixed up in your brain, and that could lead to a whole sort of problems. Adding evolutions I think is interesting, helps shows the creators creativity. As for fakemons, as long as they look good, I think people will like the game better for their looks. But one thing is for sure. Nobody likes a poorly made looking pokemon (looking at you Titanice and Garlikid from Pokemon Uranium)

 

[DyingWillFlareon]

Ugh sorry but I hate when that happens. When a new evo is introduced? Whatever. That was fine in like, Snakewood and stuff with certain things. When a type is changed? Sure, but only if there's a warning and the moves are changed slightly. Don't make Mightyena fighting type just for stab rock smash. Switching the Pokemon's evo lines for theories? No, just no, I don't know why but I can't stand that. Like the Butterfree/Venomoth thing you mentioned, or Magikarp/Dragonite, or whatever else I just can't stand that.

About stats though I probably wouldn't even notice that.....

 

[DizzyEgg]

I'm not quite fond of these to be honest. I'd say each generation makes Pokemon more and more balanced in terms of competitiveness so there's no need to change things. In some hacks, however, some changes would add character to the game. Snakewood comes to my mind as an example.
As for minor base stat or move changes, fine. Making Butterfree's Special Attack 10 points higher or giving Steelix Iron Defense won't bother me that much. Some people tend to go overboard though and make some Pokemon ridiculously overpowered.
And when it comes to fakemons, I just don't like them. The only hack I've played that had fakemons was Snakewood but their presence was justified. Most of the time, they're terribly done.

 

[Booggie]

I love it. Seeing how playing through the same version of a rom just with minor differences, you kinda know what to expect. Like a rom hack of Fire Red, I'll pick up a Pidgey on Route 1 every time, no matter what version.
With hacks that change the canon, it is just waaay more interesting. On Route 1, I may run into a Taillow and pick that up instead. And like others said, including a PDF/Txt file of changes is greatly appreciated.

 

[HippoSucks]

After spending so much time being acquainted with the Pokemon series, it would be odd to play a game based around Pokemon but with new mechanics that I am unaware of (such as new Pokemon, moves etc). If there are some minor changes like a few new moves or some stat changes, then I do not mind. However in some cases it gets a little too extreme with many new Pokemon and completely different moves and makes it seem like a completely foreign game, which is not very enjoyable.

 

[Cassandra]

Stuff like stats and move power and stuff is fine by me. I just hate when a rom hack tries to force it's way into story canon, or mixes the anime canon and the game canon because people lack the sense to see that the anime and game canons are separate.

 

[Phasesaber]

As long as it's "I'm a ten year old kid and I want to collect all the badges", I'm good. If it's "omg Mecha Godzilla is attacking the city! Join forces with Team Doritos to take him down!", then I quit.

 

[tudou]

I think I have talked about Yet Another Fire Red Hack quite a bit on this forum, but I think it's relevant to the topic.
Despite Yet Another Fire Red Hack only having 151 Pokemon, it has a huge replay value. This is due to nearly everything being usable. This is accomplished by using buffs to Pokemon. The Furret line is actually pretty good in YAFRH despite being awful in canon, due to its newfound access to Hustle. By buffing certain Pokemon, they reach new niches and become good. The only buffs that are probably over the top is Corsola, due to its inflated defenses, or Ditto, due to its new 150 HP stat, but these are obtained late enough to justify buffing them so much.
Basically what I'm saying is that well-done, justified changes to canon will add to the replay value of a hack. Of course, it's pretty easy to over-buff or under-buff a Pokemon. Another hack called Der Erif does this for comedic effect, such as Butterfree and Beedrill are given legend-level stats at the cost of being gotten at level 50. Comedic effect is ok, but it should be balanced out so that it doesn't make the game less fun to play.

Fakemon are another issue. They have potential, but that seemingly isn't tapped into yet. Usually they are poorly executed. There are a few hacks out there with Fakemon, but many have fallen into infamy. Some progressing hacks with Fakemon look promising (Pokemon Clover in particular looks hilarious to play). We will have to see how they turn out or whether they turn out at all.

 

[AkameTheBulbasaur]

It depends on the degree of how much is changed, but regardless I think it's wise to have some sort of PDF/txt file/booklet/whatever to keep track of how much is different.

In my hack, I changed everything, from stats to moves to types (although most Pokemon have their original typing). I made it so that each Pokemon learns a new move from each level from one to fifty five. I had a pattern too, so they would be pretty easy to remember. As for the stats, I changed them so that other Pokemon could keep up with the buffed up special characters I introduced. I have every stat be a multiple of ten, so they wouldn't be too hard to remember.

I gave the weaker Pokemon in canon, such as Delibird and Luvdisc, better stats and movepools so that they could have a use. I changed some moves so that each type would have strong, medium and weak moves, so any Pokemon could have a useful STAB move at any level.

I'm aware that would throw off a good number of people, but the thing is, this hack is purely for me. I've had no plans to formally release it. It was just an attempt to make a Pokemon game that's perfect for me, so in that sense there's really only one person I need to please.

I think changing Pokemon can be a good thing, since if you're hacking the game, you might as well go all the way, but I can see when they'd be confusing/pointless.

 

[wally-217]

I'm aware that would throw off a good number of people, but the thing is, this hack is purely for me. I've had no plans to formally release it. It was just an attempt to make a Pokemon game that's perfect for me, so in that sense there's really only one person I need to please.

I think you've just hit the nail on the head there. I've made a few hacks (more-of 'tweaks') in the past that have changed a fair bit but they were all personal changes. It's easy for you to remember what changes you made for obvious reasons but a lot of people seem put off when it's someone else that has made the changes (myself included) and in all honestly, the only thing I've ever relied on in battle is the type chart and move damage. And honestly, I never touched upon .pdfs/notes because I thought that stuff went without saying.

Thank you to everyone else for your insight as well. It's all valid and valued opinion that has been useful for me (and i'm sure others). By all means, lets keep this discussion going.

 

[Infinitum]

As long as the changes aren't too huge... I don't think they are bad.

 

[Murkrow]

I gave the weaker Pokemon in canon, such as Delibird and Luvdisc, better stats and movepools so that they could have a use. I changed some moves so that each type would have strong, medium and weak moves, so any Pokemon could have a useful STAB move at any level.

I'm aware that would throw off a good number of people, but the thing is, this hack is purely for me. I've had no plans to formally release it. It was just an attempt to make a Pokemon game that's perfect for me, so in that sense there's really only one person I need to please.

problem is that every individual hackers/players will have subjective and maybe even flawed ideas on how to balance certain pokemon properly. Like one day I go to play a certain hack and found out this guy actually gave Pure Power ability to Kingler and think thats actually ok. that why I always view hacks with suspicion everytime they mention stats/movepools are changed.

thats why i think the best is to just make pokemon entirely vanilla, or only buff really really unused pokemon (like delibird/spinda). otherwise hacks that make too much changes can be real off putting to play.

 

[AkameTheBulbasaur]

problem is that every individual hackers/players will have subjective and maybe even flawed ideas on how to balance certain pokemon properly. Like one day I go to play a certain hack and found out this guy actually gave Pure Power ability to Kingler and think thats actually ok. that why I always view hacks with suspicion everytime they mention stats/movepools are changed.

Since I changed everything in my own personal game so much, it might seem a little hypocritical to agree with this statement, but there's a pretty key difference that you brought up. It's one thing when you change stuff for yourself, since you know everything you changed, but if I was to play another hack where they changed everything like I did, I'd be super thrown off, because it would be different major changes that I didn't design, so it's a lot harder to get used to differences that OTHER people added.

Changing the subject, I think Fakemon are a huge risk. Taking risks is generally a good thing, and I think Fakemon have the potential to have a high payoff, but that requires a lot of skill. Designing Fakemon is just like what Gamefreak does when designing new Pokemon. A good design usually has a creative concept, colors that look good together, feels like it belongs in the region it lives in, and looks right next to Pokemon from previous generations. Of course, good design is subjective, and what looks great to one person might look horribly disgusting to another.

And that's the thing. Not everybody is going to love every choice a hacker makes. I personally say, listen to criticism from players, but don't get an ulcer from staying up all night trying to please every single person. At some point you just have to say "Well, I'm happy with this, and I'm okay with having something not everybody likes."

 

[RetroBacon]

Honestly, for the most part, I have no problem with minor tweaks and changes.
Oftentimes it provides a refreshing change of gameplay for me, but usually only as long as the changes are nuanced or the game is not modified so heavily that it becomes an entirely separate game. A few changes is fine, but when changes are made so excessively that the changes begin to stick out, then it's fine.