I think Smogon is wrong.
- Thread starter Kozoi
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Smogon is not 'wrong'. They don't claim that their tiering system is necessarily relevant to WiFi or a true indication of the Pokémon's battling prowess. Tiering is done based on ShoddyBattle because statistics can be easily acquired from the servers; only Nintendo can tell you how many of x Pokémon are used in WiFi battles.
I agree with your general points that people shouldn't rely on ShoddyBattle data being representative of WiFi and that many NU/UU Pokémon are underrated, but those are problems with the community's assumptions, not with Smogon's system.
Also, despite my fondness for Gardevoir, it can't really counter Vaporeon/Jolteon all that easily due to the tendency for them to carry Shadow Ball/Signal Beam =/
I agree with your general points that people shouldn't rely on ShoddyBattle data being representative of WiFi and that many NU/UU Pokémon are underrated, but those are problems with the community's assumptions, not with Smogon's system.
Also, despite my fondness for Gardevoir, it can't really counter Vaporeon/Jolteon all that easily due to the tendency for them to carry Shadow Ball/Signal Beam =/
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Porygon2 is a better user of Trace than Gardevoir for the most part (if you're actively using Trace to counter stuff), because it can use it to counter DDSalamence and pretty much every Gyarados out there, whereas Gardevoir (even after tracing an Intimidate) can't stay in comfortably against either. It can also switch in on most Flygon (Trace Levitate to dodge Earthquake and unboosted Outrage does like 40% to physically defensive P2), which Gardevoir can't because it's liable to take a hefty chunk of damage from U-turn. And yeah, Porygon2 takes no damage from Shadow Ball/Signal Beam, so it switches in Jolteon and Jolteon is screwed. Gardevoir does have the advantage in its support moves though, but I tend to run pokemon that are good at what it does, and if I want a support pokemon I'd rather use Uxie/Cresselia/Jirachi/Celebi because they're better at supporting. Gardevoir is more of a "niche" pokemon that can do some support and use Trace to shakily check Heatran/Vaporeon/Specsjolt/Flygon, but niche pokemon tend to be high-maintenance (they can only show their full potential in a narrow selection of teams), and I very much perfer having a pokemon to fit a team, rather than having a team fit a pokemon.
Anyways, note how the tiers are called "Overused" and "Underused" and not "High tier" or "Low tier"? Tiers tell you of things that are commonly used, not things that are powerful or not. Though there is a certain relationship between power and usage, it is not an extremely strong one. Scizor is #1 pokemon used at the moment, beating Salamence (the #2 pokemon) by a wide margin of 30%+, but I dare say for most people, getting a switch-in against Salamence is a much more daunting task than getting a switch-in against Scizor. Salamence can run so many equally dangerous and unpredictable sets that whatever your salamence switch-in is, you can maybe expect it to survive the encounter half the time. However, while Salamence remains a good selection on many offensive teams, Scizor can happily fit itself in just about every non-outright-stall team there is, having the most powerful priority in the game that does not require your opponent to attack.
That is just an example in the difference between usage and power - pokemon that can prove itself useful in more situations often gets picked over other pokemon. I can give another example - Look at rampardos. 165 atk is juicy, but every single other stat is crap and basically it is comparable to, to quote the an article in the latest The Smog, "a fat, ugly man with a huge penis." It may have the raw power, but it is extremely difficult to get it to do anything, and for many players it is a chore to try to build a team just so Rampardos can sweep comfortably, especially since so many things can go wrong and those kind of "specialized teams" tend to fall apart as soon as something in the team breaks.
Finally, if you REALLY want something in OU THAT badly, then simply get on Smogon's shoddy server and use it over and over and over again. If you can use them successfully all the better, as people will eventually get tired of losing to truly useful sets and use them themselves which serves further to increase its usage count. Look at electivire - it is commonly laughed at by a whole bunch of people, yet it steadily keeps its place in the 30something rank every month (much to the chagrin of previously mentioned whole bunch of people), because people WILL use them. Same goes to Ninjask, really, and to use a less offensive example, Roserade will likely become OU in the next tiering change because it is now used so frequently as a powerful lead.
Anyways, note how the tiers are called "Overused" and "Underused" and not "High tier" or "Low tier"? Tiers tell you of things that are commonly used, not things that are powerful or not. Though there is a certain relationship between power and usage, it is not an extremely strong one. Scizor is #1 pokemon used at the moment, beating Salamence (the #2 pokemon) by a wide margin of 30%+, but I dare say for most people, getting a switch-in against Salamence is a much more daunting task than getting a switch-in against Scizor. Salamence can run so many equally dangerous and unpredictable sets that whatever your salamence switch-in is, you can maybe expect it to survive the encounter half the time. However, while Salamence remains a good selection on many offensive teams, Scizor can happily fit itself in just about every non-outright-stall team there is, having the most powerful priority in the game that does not require your opponent to attack.
That is just an example in the difference between usage and power - pokemon that can prove itself useful in more situations often gets picked over other pokemon. I can give another example - Look at rampardos. 165 atk is juicy, but every single other stat is crap and basically it is comparable to, to quote the an article in the latest The Smog, "a fat, ugly man with a huge penis." It may have the raw power, but it is extremely difficult to get it to do anything, and for many players it is a chore to try to build a team just so Rampardos can sweep comfortably, especially since so many things can go wrong and those kind of "specialized teams" tend to fall apart as soon as something in the team breaks.
Finally, if you REALLY want something in OU THAT badly, then simply get on Smogon's shoddy server and use it over and over and over again. If you can use them successfully all the better, as people will eventually get tired of losing to truly useful sets and use them themselves which serves further to increase its usage count. Look at electivire - it is commonly laughed at by a whole bunch of people, yet it steadily keeps its place in the 30something rank every month (much to the chagrin of previously mentioned whole bunch of people), because people WILL use them. Same goes to Ninjask, really, and to use a less offensive example, Roserade will likely become OU in the next tiering change because it is now used so frequently as a powerful lead.
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I'm sorry. In many cases, Shoddy Battlers are better, as the metagame shifts more, as teams are more easily changed. You get a lot more noobs using Wifi, which is where you get your Pikachu teams. Wifi also warps the tiers, as legendary or more difficult to obtain pokemon are used less, so their real usage is not gauged properly.
By the way, Shoddy is used because they can record usage stats. Not because they want to spite you. The system is fine as it is. Enough said. Go on, post this is S&M where the real players are. You'll get a remarkably different set of replies to what you've been getting.
Anti
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The other S&M regulars have already said what needs to be said, but a few things...
Yeah, but kids with Pikachu on their Platinum team aren't playing competitively. You're using an ingame statistic to argue against common practices in competitive battling. That doesn't make any sense.
This is almost entirely false. NU Pokemon generally have horrible stats compared to OU Pokemon. Movepool only matters if the Pokemon has the stats to abuse it. Even the super powerful NU Pokemon like Slaking, Medicham, and Rampardos all have very huge faults. Slaking is a joke in the hgiher tiers because of Traunt (it's set-up bait), and the other two are horribly frail and have pretty lacking Speed.
Um, tiering is just grouping Pokemon based on usage. How can organizing something be "wrong"? That doesn't make any sense. There isn't anything that says that you can't use lower tier Pokemon in OU matches, and the fact that people don't should tell you something about how good (AKA bad) those Pokemon are. If you want to get upset with players for only using OU Pokemon or not being original, be my guest, but you can't blame the tiering system for that. A lot of Pokemon that aren't used much now were tried out and didn't work. The metagame has been pretty thoroughly explored at this point, so it's not like things are being overlooked. If you want to complain about Smogon's tiers having a negative impact on WiFi battling, I'm not the person to argue against you since I've never been on WiFi in my life. at the same time, you can't just ignore the impossibility of collecting stats from every WiFi battle that happens, so this is the best Smogon or any Pokemon community can do.
Generally your argument seems to harp on the bad points of OU Pokemon and only the good points of NU. (Where is the mention of Rampardos having only one good stat and awful typing? Aggron's horrible weaknesses?) You can't be selective with facts and then say act like the facts support your position. The tiering system is by no means perfect, but the notion that NU Pokemon are just as good as OU Pokemon is absurd.
Yeah, but kids with Pikachu on their Platinum team aren't playing competitively. You're using an ingame statistic to argue against common practices in competitive battling. That doesn't make any sense.
This is almost entirely false. NU Pokemon generally have horrible stats compared to OU Pokemon. Movepool only matters if the Pokemon has the stats to abuse it. Even the super powerful NU Pokemon like Slaking, Medicham, and Rampardos all have very huge faults. Slaking is a joke in the hgiher tiers because of Traunt (it's set-up bait), and the other two are horribly frail and have pretty lacking Speed.
Um, tiering is just grouping Pokemon based on usage. How can organizing something be "wrong"? That doesn't make any sense. There isn't anything that says that you can't use lower tier Pokemon in OU matches, and the fact that people don't should tell you something about how good (AKA bad) those Pokemon are. If you want to get upset with players for only using OU Pokemon or not being original, be my guest, but you can't blame the tiering system for that. A lot of Pokemon that aren't used much now were tried out and didn't work. The metagame has been pretty thoroughly explored at this point, so it's not like things are being overlooked. If you want to complain about Smogon's tiers having a negative impact on WiFi battling, I'm not the person to argue against you since I've never been on WiFi in my life. at the same time, you can't just ignore the impossibility of collecting stats from every WiFi battle that happens, so this is the best Smogon or any Pokemon community can do.
Generally your argument seems to harp on the bad points of OU Pokemon and only the good points of NU. (Where is the mention of Rampardos having only one good stat and awful typing? Aggron's horrible weaknesses?) You can't be selective with facts and then say act like the facts support your position. The tiering system is by no means perfect, but the notion that NU Pokemon are just as good as OU Pokemon is absurd.
Peeky Chew
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So am I the only that just says "I want a standard battle, no ubers"? This means that you can use any Pokémon but the ubers, simples.
I personally don't agree with creating groups and tiering Pokemon up, every situation and Pokemon is different and people should still use what they like. ^^ There's tons of different kinds of playstyles and everyone has their own and they all work in different situations. As someone said before, it's slightly "unfair to the Pokemon" to judge them! Hence I will always be ignoring things like this and just go with the Pokemon I like and consider decent myself. =]
-Leaf
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Never cared about smogon anyway.
Was just there for moves I could stick to my pokemon.
And the Gardevoir point.. Indeed I would take Gardy rather than Alakazam anyday. If i would had built my team (Only with UU and NU pokemon, or meybe slim chance even BL since i havn't checked tiers for alike half year)
Hmmm, If i remember right, I had Gardevoir, Feraligatr, Sudowoodo, Absol, Roserade, And last but not least, Ninetales. Built from pokemon I LIKE and not from "fancy" OU pokemon. By the word OverUsed you probably know that you are going to face those often. When i built my team i was just going to show off an original team. I barely see teams that doesn't contain an OU pokemon those days.
But tiers are tiers and smogon are smogon. If you can't beat them, ignore them.
Teh Blazer
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I don't really care what Smogon says. I put Pokemon that I think are good, not what smogon says.
If you'd rather take Gardevoir over Alakazam, then good luck to you. Highest base special attack for a non-legendary (tied with Porygon-Z, at that). That's just the way the competitive way rolls, guys. If you ain't got the stats, get off the ladder.
-Leaf
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I just favor Gardy then Zam. Never actually used a Zam anyway.
And "competitive way rolls" you remind me of Brucie from GTA IV.
Bling. Check! Bodies. Check! Paper. Check! That's how we roll!
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Darthteej used SMOGON RAGE!
Kozoi is immune to the SMOGON type!
Kozoi is immune to the SMOGON type!
tropios
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i hate smogon, it makes pokemon cold and machinal, brainless pixels, it made many people i know quit. i wish gamefreak took out evs and ivs and make it more like in which way u train your pokes, with love they become stronger, so smogon can put their tiers... u know where ;)
Apostrophe
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Good luck programming a game to measure the love of a player. It would get me closer to my dream of thinking, feeling robots dominating the human race. By the way, EV's are affected by how you train your Pokemon.
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Luck
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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That is my two cents on the subject of course. But please, anyone feel free to correct me, especially when I don't even go to competitive battling yet.
Because the power of love for your pokemon can make your level 1 pichu with only thundershock beat a level 100 garchomp with choice equipment :\
tropios
Whatevah
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uuu ok everyone the love thing was not a real suggestion, i just wanted to point out that smogon sucks, (and i know they are brainless pixels but i act not that way, not that i talk to them or something) btw why does so much use those tiers invented by some nerds? but if lovething was possible it would be more fun and my level 1 pichu CAN beat a level 100 garchomp :p
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To me it seems like some of us can't truly use the pokemon that we like due to Smogon. I used to use smogon. I sucked at battling before and then when I started to use Smogon I was still bad. I think that Smogon should stop trying to control everything. Sure pokemon like Raichu and Pikachu are not all that strong but if used right they can be a good addition to a team. All you need to do is just be able to read the opponent. But thats just me. ^_^
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