• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

2nd Gen Ice/Water, Electric, Fire

templekeeper

Remember: you're a member!
404
Posts
15
Years
    • Seen Apr 3, 2010
    It wasn't a hailstorm that stoped the fire on the Bronze Tower; it was rain. Thus, Suicune is a Water type. Remember, the lightning, fire, and rain at the Burned Tower? That's where Suicune, Raikou, and Entei came from. There's actually a reason behind their typing.
     
    786
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Oct 22, 2016
    It wasn't a hailstorm that stoped the fire on the Bronze Tower; it was rain. Thus, Suicune is a Water type. Remember, the lightning, fire, and rain at the Burned Tower? That's where Suicune, Raikou, and Entei came from. There's actually a reason behind their typing.
    Use your brains. Pokemon, and the world they reside in, aren't real. You can't use their backstory, or their names as excuses because real people, real designers, decided to make Suicune Water, not Ice.

    Why? They could have easily made him Ice. I want real theories as to why they did this... And don't give me the same lines. They aren't valid. Gamefreak could have easily changed one word of the backstory, like you said it could have been a hailstorm rather than rain. Or they could have altered his name to reflect an Ice typing.
     

    Apathetic_Yen

    very original
    1,029
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • Use your brains. Pokemon, and the world they reside in, aren't real. You can't use their backstory, or their names as excuses because real people, real designers, decided to make Suicune Water, not Ice.

    Why? They could have easily made him Ice. I want real theories as to why they did this... And don't give me the same lines. They aren't valid. Gamefreak could have easily changed one word of the backstory, like you said it could have been a hailstorm rather than rain. Or they could have altered his name to reflect an Ice typing.

    Um, yeah, maybe for the purpose of tieing in with the story that they wanted to create. I don't know, just a THEORY.

    So uh, why do you continue to come off as a douchebag?
    "Use your brains"

    Really now. Why do you continue to bash on everybody else's opinion on the matter. I mean, you still haven't answered my question-oh wait! I know now! You just want to know what everybody else thinks so you can tell them that they are full of crap! No? So why then are you asking for people's theories and just telling them "no you're wrong."
     
    786
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Oct 22, 2016
    Um, yeah, maybe for the purpose of tieing in with the story that they wanted to create. I don't know, just a THEORY.

    So uh, why do you continue to come off as a douchebag?
    "Use your brains"

    Really now. Why do you continue to bash on everybody else's opinion on the matter. I mean, you still haven't answered my question-oh wait! I know now! You just want to know what everybody else thinks so you can tell them that they are full of crap! No? So why then are you asking for people's theories and just telling them "no you're wrong."
    I've already explained several times why the explanations every one has told are not theories. You're coming off as a douchebag, when I'm just irritated that no one reads my rebuttals and offers something worth taking note of.
     

    Apathetic_Yen

    very original
    1,029
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • I've already explained several times why the explanations every one has told are not theories. You're coming off as a douchebag, when I'm just irritated that no one reads my rebuttals and offers something worth taking note of.

    No, that's what you think are not theories. Did you notice the fact that alot of other people got a little bit upset that you've been attacking evrrybody else's thoughts on the matter? Every time someone offers something, same freaking response from you.

    And dude, you never explained legitimate crap about why everyone's explanations aren't theories. You've just said "that's not a theory." I even gave you the definition of a theory.
     
    24
    Posts
    14
    Years
    • Seen Sep 18, 2010
    Because they wanted him to be a water type and maybe for balance because there has been three fire legendary pokemon and no water pokemon to counter them..haha..just my theory...
     

    templekeeper

    Remember: you're a member!
    404
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Apr 3, 2010
    Use your brains. Pokemon, and the world they reside in, aren't real. You can't use their backstory, or their names as excuses because real people, real designers, decided to make Suicune Water, not Ice.

    Why? They could have easily made him Ice. I want real theories as to why they did this... And don't give me the same lines. They aren't valid. Gamefreak could have easily changed one word of the backstory, like you said it could have been a hailstorm rather than rain. Or they could have altered his name to reflect an Ice typing.
    Did you just tell me that pokemon, because of lacking plot development, has no meaning in any conscious decisions the designers take? That's wrong. There isn't much story development in pokemon; what little we get, though, we must accept. The legend said that it was lightning, fire, then rain. Hail is a form of destruction, and that is not the premise behind Suicune. It's majestic and definitely on your side. Ice type would not have been appropriate here. Try justifying a hailstorm as dousing the flames. Yes, it can be done, but they recognised that it was not the right vantage point to take. You should, too.

    Wow, demanding. Why can we not use their backstory as an excuse? That's our only excuse for anything. I don't suppose you want real theories as to why Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf were created if to balance Dialga and Palkia was not good enough of a "theory". In pokemon, we don't have many springboards, so use the ones we got.
     
    786
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Oct 22, 2016
    Did you just tell me that pokemon, because of lacking plot development, has no meaning in any conscious decisions the designers take? That's wrong. There isn't much story development in pokemon; what little we get, though, we must accept. The legend said that it was lightning, fire, then rain. Hail is a form of destruction, and that is not the premise behind Suicune. It's majestic and definitely on your side. Ice type would not have been appropriate here. Try justifying a hailstorm as dousing the flames. Yes, it can be done, but they recognised that it was not the right vantage point to take. You should, too.

    Wow, demanding. Why can we not use their backstory as an excuse? That's our only excuse for anything. I don't suppose you want real theories as to why Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf were created if to balance Dialga and Palkia was not good enough of a "theory". In pokemon, we don't have many springboards, so use the ones we got.
    Actually, no. I didn't tell you that, I actually said the exact opposite. But I do see that you're falling into the exact trap I told everyone to avoid, if they wanted their theories counted as valid.
     

    robbingdog

    I wanna be the guy
    34
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Actually, no. I didn't tell you that, I actually said the exact opposite. But I do see that you're falling into the exact trap I told everyone to avoid, if they wanted their theories counted as valid.
    And what, exactly, constitutes a "valid" theory? (BTW, theory isn't really the word you're looking for; hypothesis would be more relevant to this usage)
     

    The Scientist

    PKMN Scientist/Mathemagician
    721
    Posts
    20
    Years
  • Ice/Water, Electric, Fire


    I don't know if I'm being trolled or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey there everybody, my name's Neiteio.

    I'm going to cure this thread of cancer.

    Firstly, allow me to cite Merriam-Webster's entry on the word "tradition":

    tra·di·tion
    Pronunciation: \trə-ˈdi-shən\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradicion, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition — more at treason
    Date: 14th century
    1a: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b: a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
    2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
    3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
    4: characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

    This thread is focusing mostly on definitions 1a, 2 and 3: "established pattern of action", "the handing down of customs from one generation to another" and "continuity in method/style". Generation 1 could not have been a tradition because there was no established pattern of action (it was the first Generation, so there was nothing to measure a pattern by), there were no other Generations to have its customs passed down from, and there was no point by which to establish a continuity. Continuity is a line, and Generation 1 was a point. In order for a line to be made, you need at least one more point.

    Now for a more in-depth explanation...

    Now, as the Legendary Birds of Generation I were the first Legendary Trio, there was no tradition to follow. The confusion over this point appears to be due to a mixing up of concepts of "in-game legend/backstory" and a "trend of Legendary elemental typing". You cannot create something new and state that an aspect of it is an already-defined tradition, because "new" and "tradition" are practically antonyms.

    The Birds could have been trendsetters, but as the Legendary Trio's typing changed each generation, a fire/electric/ice circle was not meant to be a tradition.

    Let's look at what has become tradition in Pokemon: the concept of a Legendary Trio (Birds, Beasts, Golem, Lake), a fire/water/grass Starter lineup, a Professor named after a tree, a special area only accessible after defeating the Elite Four, and quite a few other things. These things were not tradition in Generation I as there was nothing to create a continuity link with; they became tradition as each Generation continued to honor them.

    Now about this whole thing with the naming, it can go either way- the lead designers can come up with a concept and name and ask Sugimori to draw it, or Sugimori himself could be the man behind Pokemon creation (and the names are applied afterwards). Until someone can find an interview or written statement regarding Pokemon creation, stop tossing around guesses and opinions as facts. I personally believe that the "it's a Water-type because its name is Suicune" argument is weak. Based on my own experience as an artist, it is much more logical for it to work the other way around, being named Suicune because it has already been defined as a Water-type.

    What do you make of Regirock/Regice/Registeel and Azelf/Uxie/Mesprit? By continuing to break this "tradition" Generation after Generation, they only prove that there was no typing tradition to begin with.

    tl;dr: Your original question was flawed and therefore cannot be answered. No one will argue that Suicune should/shouldn't be an Ice-type because of this.

    THREAD HIJACK!

    Why isn't Suicune a Flying-type? Isn't it the Pokemon of the North Wind? Hell, it even learns Gust! Discuss.
     
    Last edited:
    1,778
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Redstar, you may have started this thread, but you dont get to announce whether or not other people's theories are valid, it's no-ones place to do that. Quit getting so worked up when people don't agree. Also, Neiteio's theory is completely ''valid'' here, you should probably read it fully before bashing it for being different to yours.
     

    fenyx4

    HOENN CONFIRMED!
    1,761
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Use your brains. [S-HIGHLIGHT]Pokemon, and the world they reside in, aren't real. You can't use their backstory, or their names as excuses because real people, real designers, decided to make Suicune Water, not Ice.[/S-HIGHLIGHT]

    Why? [S-HIGHLIGHT]They could have easily made him Ice.[/S-HIGHLIGHT] I want real theories as to why they did this... And don't give me the same lines. They aren't valid. Gamefreak could have easily changed one word of the backstory, like you said it could have been a hailstorm rather than rain. Or they could have altered his name to reflect an Ice typing.

    Hold on, what? Pokemon and the Pokemon world aren't technically real (currently, I still have hope :P :rambo:). But the only basis we have for the Pokemon and the world they reside in is our own real world, Earth (not to mention the animals that inhabit Earth). And why can't we use the backstory? For all we know, Game Freak could've decided to create the backstory first, and base the Legendary Dogs' types off of the backstory's events. Suicune was typed as Water-type since rain fell to put on the fire caused by the lighting bolt.

    And if you're saying there's a " type trend" already established by Generation I (which couldn't exist since only one Gen. was present at the time, and having only two things [in this case, 2 Gens. and 2 Legendary Trio sets] is kind of hard to actually call a trend [it techinally is one, albeit a weak one]), then that would mean the Dogs should have been part Flying-type or part bird-based as well. The Dogs should've also been "stationary" as well. By Generation II, apparently the only trend "established" is that a Legendary Trio would reappear in the region (as evidenced by Hoenn and Sinnoh).
    There is no set trend that has to be followed for type; later Trios have shown this. Trios can share a type (Lake Guardians, Dimensional Trio), have a single type present from the Birds (Regice of the Regis) or multiple types present from the Birds (Kyogre and Rayquaza of the Weather Trio [Water and Flying-types, respectively] and Entei and Raikou of the Dogs [Fire and Electric-types, respectively])

    As for Suicune's Water typing, I believe that it can only stem from:

    • the rain featured in the legend of the Dogs' creation
    • Suicune's blue color
    • Suicune's naming (sui meaning water in Japanese)
    • being a type that is similar to but different from the previously used Ice-type for Articuno (water and ice are of the same compound, anyway)
    • Suicune's ability to purify tainted waters
    • the legend that Suicune is originally a Vaporeon (Suicune's Water-type would then match Vaporeon's)
    • Suicune's cape and "ribbons" suggesting a flowing river
    • The vibrance/beauty of water over ice
    • Game Freak just wanted Water-type over Ice-type
    • Game Freak's randomness (as you say Pokemon and the Pokemon world aren't real, yet their designers are. If Suciune's origin can't be derived from real things/concepts, where can Suicune's inspiration possibly come from. The Pokemon franchise may not be "real" to you, but it's obviously based off of our reality. Even the regions are based off of real landmasses of Japan! For all we know, Game Freak could've explicitly set Entei's and Raikou's type, and gave Suicune a random type, which somehow ended up as Water-type. So they gave Suicune a backstory/name to match their random type.)
    I agree, some aspects of Suicune suggest Ice (the "Aurora Pokemon" designation, movepool of ice attacks, the "North Wind" possibly being akin to a blizzard), so Suicune could have possibly been Ice-type or even dual-type Water/Ice. But Suicune could easily have been Water-type as well, and we have it as such.

    And to pose another question, why was Articuno Ice-type? It could've "easily" Water-type as well. There are legends of rain birds being prominent... Maybe Articuno seems more Water-oriented to some people? Ken Sugimori could have made it appear more watery, too. Its legend could have been edited to make Articuno summon rains rather than snowstorms/blizzards. And its name could have changed to "Atlanticuno" or "Pacificuno" to reference the oceans. :t144:

    Personally, Suicune is Water-type either to showcase both "blue" types in the red-blue-yellow colored Trios, to fit the backstory of the Dogs' creation (who knows, a similar event could have inspired GF to use that as backstory in the first place), or simply to differ from Ice-type. I offer my "theories" as well (if you even 'accept' them as such or just render them 'invalid' like the same theories of basically everyone who has already posted in this thread). Just my thoughts...
    :t245:
     
    Last edited:
    786
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Oct 22, 2016
    Hold on, what? Pokemon and the Pokemon world aren't technically real (currently, I still have hope :P :rambo:). But the only basis we have for the Pokemon and the world they reside in is our own real world, Earth (not to mention the animals that inhabit Earth). And why can't we use the backstory? For all we know, Game Freak could've decided to create the backstory first, and base the Legendary Dogs' types off of the backstory's events. Suicune was typed as Water-type since rain fell to put on the fire caused by the lighting bolt.

    And if you're saying there's a " type trend" already established by Generation I (which couldn't exist since only one Gen. was present at the time, and having only two things [in this case, 2 Gens. and 2 Legendary Trio sets] is kind of hard to actually call a trend [it techinally is one, albeit a weak one]), then that would mean the Dogs should have been part Flying-type or part bird-based as well. The Dogs should've also been "stationary" as well. By Generation II, apparently the only trend "established" is that a Legendary Trio would reappear in the region (as evidenced by Hoenn and Sinnoh).
    There is no set trend that has to be followed for type; later Trios have shown this. Trios can share a type (Lake Guardians, Dimensional Trio), have a single type present from the Birds (Regice of the Regis) or multiple types present from the Birds (Kyogre and Rayquaza of the Weather Trio [Water and Flying-types, respectively] and Entei and Raikou of the Dogs [Fire and Electric-types, respectively])

    As for Suicune's Water typing, I believe that it can only stem from:

    • the rain featured in the legend of the Dogs' creation
    • Suicune's blue color
    • Suicune's naming (sui meaning water in Japanese)
    • being a type that is similar to but different from the previously used Ice-type for Articuno (water and ice are of the same compound, anyway)
    • Suicune's ability to purify tainted waters
    • the legend that Suicune is originally a Vaporeon (Suicune's Water-type would then match Vaporeon's)
    • Suicune's cape and "ribbons" suggesting a flowing river
    • The vibrance/beauty of water over ice
    • Game Freak just wanted Water-type over Ice-type
    • Game Freak's randomness (as you say Pokemon and the Pokemon world aren't real, yet their designers are. If Suciune's origin can't be derived from real things/concepts, where can Suicune's inspiration possibly come from. The Pokemon franchise may not be "real" to you, but it's obviously based off of our reality. Even the regions are based off of real landmasses of Japan! For all we know, Game Freak could've explicitly set Entei's and Raikou's type, and gave Suicune a random type, which somehow ended up as Water-type. So they gave Suicune a backstory/name to match their random type.)
    I agree, some aspects of Suicune suggest Ice (the "Aurora Pokemon" designation, movepool of ice attacks, the "North Wind" possibly being akin to a blizzard), so Suicune could have possibly been Ice-type or even dual-type Water/Ice. But Suicune could easily have been Water-type as well, and we have it as such.

    And to pose another question, why was Articuno Ice-type? It could've "easily" Water-type as well. There are legends of rain birds being prominent... Maybe Articuno seems more Water-oriented to some people? Ken Sugimori could have made it appear more watery, too. Its legend could have been edited to make Articuno summon rains rather than snowstorms/blizzards. And its name could have changed to "Atlanticuno" or "Pacificuno" to reference the oceans. :t144:

    Personally, Suicune is Water-type either to showcase both "blue" types in the red-blue-yellow colored Trios, to fit the backstory of the Dogs' creation (who knows, a similar event could have inspired GF to use that as backstory in the first place), or simply to differ from Ice-type. I offer my "theories" as well (if you even 'accept' them as such or just render them 'invalid' like the same theories of basically everyone who has already posted in this thread). Just my thoughts...
    :t245:
    Invalid.


    Nah. I'm just kidding. Really, yours and Neiteio's posts are really the only ones that I would consider valid... Not that the other poster's opinions didn't matter, it's just that they seemed to be under the impression that the Pokemon world (not franchise, please note) is real, and said things like "because his backstory dealt with water". That is not a valid theory/hypothesis/whatever because designers came up with that backstory, not real events.

    The same can be said for several other arguments, such as Suicune's name meaning water. Really, that can't be considered a valid point because the designers chose the name, not a real world monster that already existed... It's like saying Magmar is a Fire type because 'magma' is in its name. I'm pretty sure in the "Pokemon world" the naming went the other way around.

    But I suppose I should really clarify myself: I didn't necessarily mean a trend/tradition was broken, but that one was avoided. See, I'm a "second gen is last gen" kinda guy (thought Ruby/Sapphire has been growing on me) so I had built up an ideal on the first two generations, and at the time I started this thread I was absolutely shocked that Suicune was Water rather than Ice.... I did not know that.

    So my point was, why did Gamefreak decide not to start a tradition at all? I'm okay with mild changes in "tradition", but not when we end up with 14 legendaries in one game. Sorry, but if that's what we get than recycling the same pattern is really the lesser of two evils.
     

    fenyx4

    HOENN CONFIRMED!
    1,761
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Invalid.


    Nah. I'm just kidding. Really, yours and Neiteio's posts are really the only ones that I would consider valid... Not that the other poster's opinions didn't matter, it's just that they seemed to be under the impression that the Pokemon world (not franchise, please note) is real, and said things like "because his backstory dealt with water". That is not a valid theory/hypothesis/whatever because designers came up with that backstory, not real events.

    The same can be said for several other arguments, such as Suicune's name meaning water. Really, that can't be considered a valid point because the designers chose the name, not a real world monster that already existed... It's like saying Magmar is a Fire type because 'magma' is in its name. I'm pretty sure in the "Pokemon world" the naming went the other way around.

    But I suppose I should really clarify myself: I didn't necessarily mean a trend/tradition was broken, but that one was avoided. See, I'm a "second gen is last gen" kinda guy (thought Ruby/Sapphire has been growing on me) so I had built up an ideal on the first two generations, and at the time I started this thread I was absolutely shocked that Suicune was Water rather than Ice.... I did not know that.

    So my point was, why did Gamefreak decide not to start a tradition at all? I'm okay with mild changes in "tradition", but not when we end up with 14 legendaries in one game. Sorry, but if that's what we get than recycling the same pattern is really the lesser of two evils.

    All right...I slightly get your argument, but it's still a little confusing at first glance of the thread.
    As for GF's 'tradition'...I guess they didn't want to be restricted to fire/ice/electric trio for each Gen with a re-hashed backstory for each game. Plus, the Pokemon world and its inhabitants continue to expand. New Pokemon are being found; new innovations being made by companies like Silph Co. and Devon Corp.; new Trainers setting off on journeys almost every day; new legends arising on occasion. The Pokemon world is deep (as well as mind-boggling at times); too much "tradition" would probably ruin it, and Pokemon would be way more predictable than it is now. Similar to how Junichi Masuda recently opened up about his idea of possible action for the Pokemon series, nixing some bits of tradition (sacrificing some RPG for more action) keeps the games a bit fresher, in some cases.

    I don't know why 14 legendaries were included in DPPt; that seems a bit excessive. Version mascots (3), a Mew-ish Pokemon (1), a Legendary Trio (3), a Deoxys-esque Pokemon (1), and maybe 2 "offset" Pokemon (like Lati@s). That would equal 8-10 Legendary Pokemon, roughly the number Generation III had (which didn't seem like too much, IMO). However, reducing the number of Legendaries per Generation helps preserve the actual uniqueness of Legendaries, instead of just making it just another old Pokemon group designation.

    Anyway, veering back on topic, I'm glad to have the few traditions that GF continues to implement (though the next Starters need a desperate typing change from Fire/Water/Grass. ASAP. As Legendary Trios have repeatedly changed type, so can they.) But relating to RedStar's question, are you basically asking in a nutshell: what are the origins of the origins (of the Pokemon and their backstory? Like the actual real-world basis for Suicune's typing plus its backstory? If so, I think your Suicune question could then be answered a little clearer, idk...
     

    The Scientist

    PKMN Scientist/Mathemagician
    721
    Posts
    20
    Years
  • So my point was, why did Gamefreak decide not to start a tradition at all?

    I believe that Game Freak's original plan was to have one Legendary Pokemon that rules over every aspect of nature (or, in the case of the more recent ones, creating nature itself). As a result, we've got a Legendary for forests, one for time, one for the ocean, one for wisdom, etc. There don't seem to be any overlaps in each Legendary's domain, just as no two Greek gods were patrons of the same thing. Storms, blizzards, and mystical fire were already covered in the first Generation, so they crossed those three off their list and assigned the next batch of natural phenomena to Generation II: lightning bolts (not thunderstorms), the North Wind, and volcanic eruptions.

    So even with all of this included, why couldn't they make Suicune an Ice-type? Ice-types are very straightforward and have a definitive image: they make blizzards and snow, and that's about it. While this definitely applies to Articuno the patron god of Blizzards, Suicune does not have any connection to these things.
     

    Apathetic_Yen

    very original
    1,029
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • But I suppose I should really clarify myself: I didn't necessarily mean a trend/tradition was broken, but that one was avoided. See, I'm a "second gen is last gen" kinda guy (thought Ruby/Sapphire has been growing on me) so I had built up an ideal on the first two generations, and at the time I started this thread I was absolutely shocked that Suicune was Water rather than Ice.... I did not know that.

    So my point was, why did Gamefreak decide not to start a tradition at all? I'm okay with mild changes in "tradition", but not when we end up with 14 legendaries in one game. Sorry, but if that's what we get than recycling the same pattern is really the lesser of two evils.

    Now...we are getting somewhere. Had that been said before I would not have jumped on you.
     

    Ayselipera

    Guest
    0
    Posts
    Maybe because water fits in better with fire and electric.
    I mean water is just the unfrozen form of ice. An Ice
    pokemon is kind of like a water pokemon just colder
    moves. I don't see much of a difference.
     

    XxDawnfanxX

    The stubborn Pokemon Trainer
    739
    Posts
    15
    Years
  • Usually wouldn't the "trend" be fire/water/grass? I don't think they really broke a trend with the three legendary birds. I thought it was really cool what they did, Articuno looks awesome with it's ice attacks. The movie featuring these three birds and how the balance of nature was upset and Ash had to collect the three orbs from each was my favorite movie. It would be awesome to be the chosen one. I just figure it was very creative of them to have fire/electric/ice it makes for an interesting trio and each of the three birds has a very unique design as well as background behind them.
     
    Back
    Top