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More of the Same

pkmin3033

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    We've had a lot of speculation, discussion, hopes and dreams threads, etc etc, and there have been some fantastic ideas and very interesting theories. We have very little to go on at the moment, but we can draw a variety of inferences from what little we have been shown. Pokemon games have always dropped hints about the future, going all the way back to the first generation, and fan theories haven't always been hugely off the mark. All of it has the potential to be exciting and innovative, and really take the franchise forward in time for the 20th Anniversary. But I think it might be time to calm down, take a step back, and consider things objectively and from a historical viewpoint - why should these games be any different from what we've had thus far in terms of quality and quantity of content?

    Looking at it historically, whilst each generation has brought some new to the table to set itself apart from the others - be it seasons in the fifth gen, or Mega evolution in the sixth - nothing has really changed to the point that any one instalment in the franchise has stood out above all others as a definitive experience, and any significant features that have been implemented have always been removed in the next generation, meaning progress is extremely slow in any matter other than the core gameplay. Like many of Nintendo's franchises, Pokemon has always been a "good enough" sort of series, giving us the bare minimum in quality - which is still high quality, admittedly - and then selling itself in a more complete version later, be it in a third version or in sequels. Despite its high quality, Pokemon games always cut content, are always bare minimum experience, and could always be better.

    I think we can all agree that Sun & Moon will have its own little quirks and features - outside of the obvious new Pokemon and potential new region - that will give it its own distinct personality, but how likely do you think it is that the games will go beyond that and make significant changes? We all want these things, but realistically speaking, isn't it highly probable that these are going to be "more of the same" experiences? The same half-complete story, the same amount of effort put in - which is to say, minimal - so that a more complete experience can be released later?

    How likely do you think that all of these theories and speculation are going to turn out to be wildly off the mark, and in fact, rather than a feature-loaded 20th Anniversary special, we're going to wind up with more of the same? Would you be satisfied with another standard two game instalment similar to X and Y; a "more of the same" experience? Do you think that Game Freak will move beyond its standard half-baked formula with Sun and Moon and do something truly special this time; packed with features that should never have been removed and might just stay in going forward? Going one step further - how long do you think Pokemon will be a "more of the same" experience as we move through each new generation and/or are given two new versions...and how much longer are you going to be willing to put up with it?

    tl;dr on a sliding scale of optimism vs. pessimism, where you do stand on these games being another other than standard-issue titles that should have been better than what they were?
     

    Oblox

    Pokemon Breeder
    753
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    9
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    • UK
    • Seen Jul 9, 2021
    Im hopeful they will revamp some tired old aspects (eg HM's) but overall id expect it will be more of the same with the usual added features.

    Im ok with that as long as post game content noticably improves to increase the longevity of the game.
     

    SnowpointQuincy

    Seeker of FRIEND CODES
    1,286
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    15
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  • What do I realistically expect them to do? Clothes. There are other features I would rather have first, but Clothes is just so easy. Just do it GF.
    They wont give us innovation for $40, and they are adamant about staying on the portable systems. Maybe an NX game like Gale of Darkness could be good.
    I could go into a whole big Wish List, but... there's probably a different thread for all that nonsense.
     
    10,769
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    14
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  • tl;dr on a sliding scale of optimism vs. pessimism, where you do stand on these games being another other than standard-issue titles that should have been better than what they were?
    I'm fairly pessimistic. As long as Pokemon is popular there's no need for them to make any big changes, only incremental ones. I think that most of us don't really want big changes, or rather we're ready to accept and settle for games that are mostly the same. After all, if you ask 100 people here on the forum what new things or changes they would like to see in the next series of games you'll get 100 different answers (except for Dark-type gym request, which really isn't a radical departure from standard gameplay) so one can't reasonably expect the new games will be able to satisfy more than a small handful without changing every element of the games completely.

    I am also fairly optimistic that the new games will be better then the previous ones. Like I said, they make incremental improvements, so while I don't expect groundbreaking changes I'm pretty confident that overall we'll get a better gaming experience.
     
    50,218
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  • Hopefully with this being the 20th anniversary, they go all out and leave nothing on the table.

    I do hope the same. There's been a lot of rinsing and repeating with Pokemon, and I don't want to see the 20th anniversary be heavily wasted. They need to show the effort that they had put into this game.
     

    Universe

    all-consuming
    2,237
    Posts
    10
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    • Seen Nov 17, 2016
    With all the odd secrecy Nintendo has in showing bits of these games I have hopes it's a good sign and not a bad one. Like maybe they're holding back content because it's gonna be amazing and they don't want to spoil much. But with their really awful track record it's up in the air. This could easily fall completely flat.. arguably like most of their recent games, including main Pokemon titles. They've been gearing way too hard for baby-level difficulty and no actual content post-game for some reason. Every single time they make a new Pokemon game it feels like an obvious cash grab, because I end every recent game dissatisfied and completely sure I wasted my money on it. I don't want to feel like I'm wasting money on Nintendo anymore, who just keeps chewing up old materials and spitting out something that's "just good enough" to not let the market die.

    Shiny hunting for instance, my favorite Pokemon activity to do, was more or less ruined by XY and ORAS. That's something the series can't recover from. You can't cut the shiny rate in half, then give a handful of methods to make it even easier to find shinies, then expect them to still hold any value. It's really sad, a true "Shiny Hunting for Dummies" kinda deal. A small complaint for most, but huge for me.

    I could also go on to imply Pokemon itself has really become a For Dummies series in general, since they just hold your hand the entire way through in the latest games and make it way too easy to beat it in under 24 hours. To say I'm miffed is putting it lightly. If you're gonna add details like Exp. Share as a key item and Pokemon Amie for cool but bullshit plays, then at least make the game more difficult. It shouldn't be easier than previous titles, what the hell.

    Maybe that "new era" wording they used to describe PSM will hold some actual weight for once. They've tried to restart the series twice now right?
     
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    captainfez3

    Old School Trainer
    92
    Posts
    15
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    • Seen Jan 4, 2019
    Hopefully with this being the 20th anniversary, they go all out and leave nothing on the table.

    This sums up my hopes well ha ha.

    If nothing else, I hope HMs are no longer a thing or are able to be learned in a special move list, so I don't have to waste a slot and I hope they make the post game much more robust. I want to have post game content to support my play style i.e. traveling around the world and still trying to keep my edge as the "very best".
     
    146
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    16
    Years
  • Normally I'd say I just expect it to be the standard "here, have 3 new starters, 2 new playable trainers, 8 new gyms and 1 new region. Have fun for the next year~!)

    But this time around there are a lot of things that factor in that make we want to believe otherwise. The more obvious one, is yeah, this gen is being released for the 20th anniversary. This isn't like when D/P were being released for the 10th anniversary either, where it just happened to be a new gen debuting on the anniversary. S/M are literally being pushed alongside the anniversary, and I won't doubt they'll advertise it as such too (even the announcement trailer tied in to the whole 20th anniversary thing). If it's meant to "celebrate" the franchise, they're going to not want to leave people disappointed.

    Another thing that I think could have a huge impact on how these games turn out, is Yokai Watch. It's decimating Pokemon in Japan, and GF is going to want to have all eyes on them once again, and reclaim that #1 spot. I think they realize that now they actually have competition, which for us, is only a good thing.

    I also feel there's a chance that GF may take some inspiration from FE:Fates, as it proved that you can have a "dual release" with differing content, and still have it be a success.

    Then lastly, just like how B/W were splendid games, as they were a generation that was developed after GF had experience with the DS. S/M is likely to be a similar situation. X/Y was them finding their footing, ORAS was them refining it, and now we get to see what they can actually do with the 3ds hardware. I'm stoked.
     

    Arylett Charnoa

    No one in particular.
    1,130
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    10
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    • Age 32
    • Seen Jan 5, 2023
    I don't believe in anything until I see it happen with my own eyes, which means my expectations are always fairly low. With a series like Pokemon that is afraid to branch out and take true risks, this applies even more. Yes, it's the 20th anniversary, but I'm still cautious. I was fairly optimistic after HGSS and BW, but was crushed by the lackluster Gen VI in my opinion. They're just too inconsistent to have any expectation other than the lowest about.

    As for how much more of this I'm willing to take, I really don't know. Gen VI sapped me of a lot of interest in the games, and had me almost quit Pokemon altogether. But I just love the monster designs so much and am too curious to resist playing. I think maybe at this point, I really can't quit. But that could change. They could screw up these games so badly in my eyes that I see no point in continuing. That is an extreme situation, but it is still possible.
     

    Masterge77

    Robot Mienshao
    1,084
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • Well, they are definitely not changing the traditional formula of having a single region with a Gym Badge plot, that's for sure, but I would love to see them shake things up a bit like being able to fight certain Gym Leaders in a different order like you could in some of the older generations, rather than a permanent fixed order... or how about some interesting plot twist like the Champion being the villain team leader and have him/her execute their plot at the very climax like in BW1. I would love to see that done more often in the franchise.

    With all the odd secrecy Nintendo has in showing bits of these games I have hopes it's a good sign and not a bad one. Like maybe they're holding back content because it's gonna be amazing and they don't want to spoil much. But with their really awful track record it's up in the air. This could easily fall completely flat.. arguably like most of their recent games, including main Pokemon titles. They've been gearing way too hard for baby-level difficulty and no actual content post-game for some reason. Every single time they make a new Pokemon game it feels like an obvious cash grab, because I end every recent game dissatisfied and completely sure I wasted my money on it. I don't want to feel like I'm wasting money on Nintendo anymore, who just keeps chewing up old materials and spitting out something that's "just good enough" to not let the market die.

    Shiny hunting for instance, my favorite Pokemon activity to do, was more or less ruined by XY and ORAS. That's something the series can't recover from. You can't cut the shiny rate in half, then give a handful of methods to make it even easier to find shinies, then expect them to still hold any value. It's really sad, a true "Shiny Hunting for Dummies" kinda deal. A small complaint for most, but huge for me.

    I could also go on to imply Pokemon itself has really become a For Dummies series in general, since they just hold your hand the entire way through in the latest games and make it way too easy to beat it in under 24 hours. To say I'm miffed is putting it lightly. If you're gonna add details like Exp. Share as a key item and Pokemon Amie for cool but bull**** plays, then at least make the game more difficult. It shouldn't be easier than previous titles, what the hell.

    Maybe that "new era" wording they used to describe PSM will hold some actual weight for once. They've tried to restart the series twice now right?

    Now this I heavily agree with. Masuda claims that people don't have time to play Pokemon anymore and he wants the games to be streamlined to be more accessible to newer players because people are too busy with other things (though he emphasized people playing mobile games over anything else in that interview, which deeply concerns me given how hated the mobile game market is by gamers). Now I understand making the games more accessible, but not basically taking out everything that makes the Pokemon games so beloved by millions of people worldwide, by basically removing any sense of challenge and having no replay value to the games whatsoever. I mean, I don't mind them making it easier to find shinies or making breeding and EV/IV training less time-consuming so that the player can have a well-crafted team, but when you make the games easy to complete in under a day, it just makes the game far-less fun and challenging.

    This is why things like Nuzlockes and their multiple spin-off special runs have become more prevalent in the fandom because this lack of actual challenge within the games anymore, and you can't have a good game without a good challenge. Playing a game takes time and effort, so you can't take a franchise that's known for being a challenging JRPG and make it easier just in the name of money. Making it more accessible, yes, but you have to stay true to what made the franchise so great in the first place, something I feel has become lost in later years.
     
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    2,777
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    • Age 31
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    • Seen Mar 30, 2024
    I'm naturally pessimistic so I don't think I really need to further explain my own stance. But I've gotta admit, when I see people who were hoping we don't get "Pokémon Z" say that they don't expect we're gonna get a particularly substantial game, that's when I get worried.

    If we do end up getting "more of the same," I don't think I'd be able to justify it. Pokémon shouldn't have a "one step forward, two steps back" mentality with each new gen to begin with. But when you couple that with this being the 20th anniversary, it makes it even worse. And then there's the chance that Sun & Moon won't even act as a Kalos tie-in, and then you've got the fact that they passed up what could have been an outstanding end for gen 6 for something that may just be another step forward but a few steps back. And I honestly think a Kalos-based game would have worked fine as a 20th anniversary title considering how much TPC(i) loves gen 1 and how X & Y predominantly referenced gen 1 to the point where the gen 1 starters overshadowed even their own.

    Maybe the upcoming news will blow me away and prove me wrong--I would love that. Prove me wrong, Game Freak. Prove to me and all your fans all over the world you can make a game worthy of being released on the series's 20th anniversary. Prove you can make a game that actually brings together everything we've wanted that you've left behind. Take two leaping strides forward, and none back.
     

    Jetfire

    أربعة ملوك السماوية
    355
    Posts
    16
    Years
  • Let's just be hopeful of the future. Regardless of the outcome. WE are the future of this franchise. These past 20 years have been an amazing run and I'm excited about the future.

    After reading all of your ideas, I realized that as long as Pokemon's fanbase is strong and ever growing, it will continue to succeed.
     

    pkmin3033

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    This is why things like Nuzlockes and their multiple spin-off special runs have become more prevalent in the fandom because this lack of actual challenge within the games anymore, and you can't have a good game without a good challenge. Playing a game takes time and effort, so you can't take a franchise that's known for being a challenging JRPG and make it easier just in the name of money. Making it more accessible, yes, but you have to stay true to what made the franchise so great in the first place, something I feel has become lost in later years.
    Has Pokemon ever been known as a challenging series, though? I would argue that it hasn't, because it relies on a level-up system and a very easily exploited elemental-type chart that means all you need to do to win is level up high enough. Something that istime consuming is not necessarily challenging. To my mind, at least, Pokemon has never been hard, and I've never played Pokemon because I want to push myself...on the contrary in fact, I typically play Pokemon titles so I can relax a bit from other far more difficult and time-consuming JRPGs I have on the go.

    Replaying Yellow has only made that more prominent to me. All you need to do, in any Pokemon title, is level up sufficiently. It just takes a few hours more to reach that point in the earlier games. That is the only difference. There is zero challenge in Pokemon, other than what you as a player make for yourself. I'm not sure I understand entirely what you mean by what has been "lost" in the franchise, when it has essentially remained unchanged since the first generation, at least at its very core. Unless you think spending hours on training is a good thing, anyway...which I suppose it could be, depending on how you look at it. But it has nothing to do with difficulty.

    What makes the franchise so great will differ depending on who you ask - some people will play for the fandom challenges they can set themselves, others will play for the adventuring or story aspects, and some will play for competitive purposes. Arguably, when you boil it right down, it is perhaps that flexibility in play style that makes Pokemon so great, and if that is the case it has actually gotten better at conveying that with a more lax EXP Growth Rate that doesn't require those hours of training: people who want to blaze through it can do so. You definitely cannot do that in earlier titles, but that isn't because they're harder - it's because they require a lot more time invested to train sufficiently. That's all.
     

    Micael Alighieri

    Helix Boo / Lord Kaktus, ex-member from Whack a Ha
    97
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    16
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    • Seen May 24, 2017
    Well, the new generations remain at the same console as the previous one, so knowing that Game Freak recycle old Pokemon game engines, it wouldn't be a surprise if you get disappointed. There isn't much information from now, so I wouldn't make early statements. I hope that the new designs aren't terrible (I'm afraid of Junichi Masuda) and that they improve old things (harder difficulty, a longer post-game, cities with more presence and, if it's true, that Ken Sugimori's will of easing the metagame was true and finally applied).
     

    Alex

    what will it be next?
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    • Seen Dec 30, 2022
    Pretty pessimistic, I guess. Though there's really no question about it. That's all the handheld Pokemon game series is - more of the same. So I wouldn't say pessimistic, so much as realistic.

    But hey, I'll still buy it. 8)
     
    270
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    • Seen Jan 3, 2017
    Has Pokemon ever been known as a challenging series, though? I would argue that it hasn't, because it relies on a level-up system and a very easily exploited elemental-type chart that means all you need to do to win is level up high enough. Something that istime consuming is not necessarily challenging. To my mind, at least, Pokemon has never been hard, and I've never played Pokemon because I want to push myself...on the contrary in fact, I typically play Pokemon titles so I can relax a bit from other far more difficult and time-consuming JRPGs I have on the go.
    I think Pokémon has been reasonably challenging for a good bit of the series. Although full disclosure, I haven't played Gens IV or V.
    It's not so much that the battles are challenging, although it has had its moment throughout the series such as Whitney and Brawly, but I do think the games presented puzzles that kept players reasonably engaged. The gym puzzles, which really there were only a few of, were pretty weak and it seemed like there were a lot less puzzles along the way. Even the strength puzzles they did have were pretty sparse in number.
    It's a shame the Trick House never became a constant feature. Especially since they set up the Trick Master traveling to different regions.


    I definitely agree though, the changes they made to avoid the need to grind were positive.
     
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