• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

My secular arguments against gay marriage.

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • 900
    Posts
    13
    Years
    • Seen Jul 22, 2016
    Also when gay marrige is allowed that is saying the country supports gay marriage, if I am apart of that country I would be apart to blame for it. As such since I do not want to be associated or live in a society that supports gay marriage I try to argue against it.

    It certainly is your right to argue against same sex couples getting married. But I find it very odd that you as an American would be arguing for suppressing rights, when allowing same sex couples to get married would in fact expand rights.

    I thought it was the American way to expand freedom in that country. Clearly I must be mistaken.

    For the past seven years, the country in which I live in has expanded marriage rights to same sex couples. None of the negative consequences those against gay marriage have become reality. In fact, they were proved to be nothing more than fear mongering. Same sex couples get married in churches, in town halls, and in other venues that host weddings. At the same time, no religious institution has been forced to recognize, support, or participate in same sex marriages.

    So I really don't see what valid reason you have for wanting to prohibit same sex couples from getting married, when by allowing them to get married can only help society (and the economy especially).
     

    NarutoActor

    The rocks cry out to me
  • 1,974
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Gay marriage being a right, is a form of human rights inflation, where everyone wants everything to be a right, and the things that should truly be rights become diminished in the process.

    Liberty is the ability to have control of ones actions, which they have, not being able to get marriaged would not be controling there whole lives. Also when talking about "what this country was founded on" the morals of this country were based on jedeo-christian beliefs, with homosexuality being against those beliefs
     
  • 900
    Posts
    13
    Years
    • Seen Jul 22, 2016
    Gay marriage being a right, is a form of human rights inflation, where everyone wants everything to be a right, and the things that should truly be rights become diminished in the process.

    Correction, marriage is a right, as protected under the U.S. Constitution's 5th and 14th amendments. There is no distinction between same sex marriage, heterosexual marriage, or interracial marriage. The right of marriage is a universal one. Only where harm could be done should marriage be limited, as is the case with adult/child marriages and polygamous marriages.

    Liberty is the ability to have control of ones actions, which they have, not being able to get marriaged would not be controling there whole lives.

    It affects their right to be treated as equals under the law. Currently gays are not.

    Also when talking about "what this country was founded on" the morals of this country were based on jedeo-christian beliefs, with homosexuality being against those beliefs

    Your assertion is a false one. It's been made many times before by anti-gay groups, and debunked just as many times before. The U.S. is not, nor ever has been, a Christian nation, and neither has it ever been a nation governed by Christian belief.
     

    NarutoActor

    The rocks cry out to me
  • 1,974
    Posts
    15
    Years
    For reference, the 14th says:

    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




    So, that means that a state is forbidden from doing three things:

    1) Reducing the rights or privileges granted to people by the federal government.
    2) Take away a person's life, liberty or property without due process
    3) Exclude people from the protections offered by state laws

    Marriage is not a right or privilege granted by the federal government, so #1 is out.

    #2 The state needs to prove that they are giving due process under the law, with that process being usable while treating homosexuals differently. becuase of court classification which I will better explain in point #3

    #3 is a bit tougher to make. It sounds very clear cut- states can't deny any person equal protection of the laws. But in practice that super clear cut interpretation doesn't really work. For example, a felon can't vote, a young person can't claim benefits designed for the elderly and a person who isn't handicapped can't get a handicapped license plate. States realistically have to be able to control what laws apply to which people to some extent or you just end up with an absurd situation. So, the courts have devised a three tiered system for the characteristics that states could potentially use and different burdens of proof for them:

    Strict scrutiny- states can only discriminate if they have a "compelling state interest" and the way they are discriminating is "narrowly tailored" to that state interest. What that means is basically that they need a really, really, important goal and there basically isn't any other way they could accomplish that goal. Virtually no law ever survives strict scrutiny in the 14th amendment context.

    Intermediate scrutiny- states can only discriminate if they have an "important state interest" and the way they are discriminating is "substantially related" to that interest. This is basically just a weaker version of strict scrutiny. The state needs to be doing it to further an important goal and the discrimination needs to have something that ties it pretty closely to that goal. Laws often survive intermediate scrutiny.

    Rational basis- this means that states can discriminate so long as they have some kind of a rational explanation for why they're doing it. The court doesn't need to agree with that reasoning, they just need to find that the state is acting rationally. Virtually any law will survive rational basis analysis (although not always).

    Different characteristics of a person fall into different ones of these categories. Race, religion and national origin are in the strict scrutiny category. The only characteristic in the intermediate scrutiny category is sex. It makes sense to have that there because there are some things that states just need to do to treat men and women differently- for example, separate bathrooms or accommodations for pregnancy, etc. But, the courts also want to be able to prevent flat out sex discrimination. So they keep it in the middle tier and pretty much decide case by case. Everything else is in the rational basis category.

    I think I am going to add this to the first post
     

    luke

    Master of the Elements
  • 7,810
    Posts
    16
    Years
    This thread goes against the standards of PC. Closed.
     
    Last edited:
  • 14,092
    Posts
    14
    Years
    Seconding what Luke said.

    TO Clarify:

    Warnings to stay on topic/out of religion here were issued, and the thread got progressively more flaming and got progressivly worse the more that certain people kept posting here. No more beating the dead horse over and over with the same circular arguments and the same put downs. It's over.

    Locked.
     
    Last edited:
    Status
    Not open for further replies.
    Back
    Top