@An-chan
Thanks for the detailed post. I can respect opinions that are stated without attacking someone. And I think all of your points are valid. Good job on that post.
I do want to address a few things though.
First, I can agree that Dark was made to balance out Psychic, but where did Steel come from? I think they added it just to give some variety. The only type it even resembles is Rock, but not even that so much.
Second, there was an imbalance in representative pokemon when those two types came out too. When Dark was introduced, the only dark pokemon were Umbreon, Murkrow, and Tyranitar. Neither of those evolved further.
Then take Steel: it had two new pokemon (Forretres and Skarmory [version exlusive]), two re-typed pokemon (Magnemite and Magneton), and two cross-evolutions with the same stats but different types (Steelix and Scizor). The only non pseudo-legendary or legendary that was introduced in the next generation was Mawile. That means most of our Steel types come from Gen IV.
So adding a Light type (or a Glass/Crystal type, which is an idea that grows on me hourly) wouldn't mean that most of the new pokemon would have to be light. You would really only have to re-type a couple of pokemon, add in an evolution or two, add one or two new pokemon (like a counterpart to Zorua and Zoroark), and possibly add in a light-type legendary. That's 7-8 pokemon total, and only 5-6 that would be new. That's doable.
I agree with most if not all of what you've said, except I thought I should point out that Houndour and Houndoom were Gen.II as well. Just getting in before that is used as a counter-argument.
What we're all disagreeing on is the idea of "Light", meaning "Holy", being a valid counterpart to Dark. Which is why I suggested the "Aura-type" as a more accurate name for what I would consider the Light-type.
When it comes to the idea of re-typing, or introducing a whole swathe of over- or under-powered Light-type Pokemon, I think we can all agree that it's pretty unlikely Gamefreak would be so clumsy, especially given that the Steel- and Dark-types were far from overly abundant when first introduced. And as for unbalancing the metagame... I know a lot of the more verbose anti-Light-type posters have stopped arguing this, but the idea that a new type would unbalance the metagame is simply ridiculous. Gamefreak are better than that.
Also there was one thing in particular you said that caught my attention: "Energy blasts, healing moves, physics-distorting moves, etc" are all seen in the psychic type...
But anyway, it doesn't really matter. You can say that GameFreak wouldn't create an imbalance in the metagame all you want, but what it boils down to is how the players of the game use the new Pokemon and the new combinations available. It isn't "simply ridiculous" to think that it's possible. It's perfectly feasible to think so. They did it in the first generation with the Psychic type. It won't necessarily happen if they do add in a new type, but it's a definite possibility. Also, don't bother trying to tell me that the first generation is completely different, that GameFreak couldn't foresee how dominant Psychic types would be in the first generation, because I can easily apply the same argument to this case.
There in a lot of other types too. Healing moves are in Water, Normal, Grass, etc. Physics-distorting is in Normal and probably others. And energy blasts are in everything.
You only reinforce my argument when you say that every change to the game can create an imbalance. Also, please be sure to read what I said in the correct context. I did say that it won't necessarily happen again, but it's still a possibility.Myles said:It certainly isn't a solid argument either. Every change to the game could cause an imbalance, especially major ones. Revolutionary new moves, abilities, the physical-special split, etc. Psychic may have been imbalanced then, but I'm pretty sure they had a lot smaller team, a lower budget and a harder system to program for. This shows in the large amount of glitches, the severe underpowering of the Bug and Fighting types, the fact that Ghost was accidently not super-effective to Psychic, etc. They haven't made any major mistakes since. I'm sure it's unlikely for it to go wrong again.
I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, which is actually on this page, that the Bug type sucked and wasn't an adequate counter for Psychic. Also, if the Light type, or any other type for that matter, were released as underpowered, then that would defeat the whole point of releasing it, wouldn't you think? That in itself would create an imbalance. I think it's much more important to balance out what's already there, such as the Bug type, before adding in a new "awsum" type. But that's just my opinion.Myles said:Also remember that Psychic had one weakness, Bug, and that type sucked and had very few actual Bug-type moves. As long as Light is given enough weaknesses, the only risk would Light itself being underpowered.
The fourth generation didn't really introduce anything new aside from some new abilities, new attacks, and a few new type combinations. There were no huge changes to the metagame, which discounts the statement someone asserted earlier that the metagame would need a major change every generation to stay interesting.
The fourth generation didn't really introduce anything new aside from some new abilities, new attacks, and a few new type combinations. There were no huge changes to the metagame, which discounts the statement someone asserted earlier that the metagame would need a major change every generation to stay interesting.
Now, why did I feel the need to list all of the changes from each generation? Because I feel it's necessary to point out that the only time in the history of the game that a type was added, it was to correct a problem. I also felt it was important to point out that the metagame needs no major changes to stay interesting.
I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, which is actually on this page, that the Bug type sucked and wasn't an adequate counter for Psychic. Also, if the Light type, or any other type for that matter, were released as underpowered, then that would defeat the whole point of releasing it, wouldn't you think? That in itself would create an imbalance. I think it's much more important to balance out what's already there, such as the Bug type, before adding in a new "awsum" type. But that's just my opinion.
Bah, I forgot about the physical/special split. However, I stand by my assertion that the metagame doesn't need a major change to be interesting. Any new attack/ability combinations that are released in the fifth generation will make it interesting enough.Cyberglass said:Actually, the fourth generation DID introduce a major change: the split between Physical and Special by move instead of by type. For example, Hyper Beam became a Special attack, and Leaf Blade, Crunch, and Fire Punch became Physical attacks. This allowed many pokemon to shine who were previously crippled by their reliance on a type that didn't match their offensive strengths, and also weakened Pokemon like Sceptile, which has a high Special Attack but had its best moves changed into Physical attacks. Weaknesses were also flipped upside down, because Pokemon that were weak only to (previously) Special or Physical types could no longer rely on the appropriate Defense stat for protection. I can't see any way this DIDN'T greatly impact the metagame.
It doesn't, but as that's the only time new types have been added, I find it unlikely that a new type would be added this late in the series. Also, I somehow find a false argument weaker than that which is true, so I don't think saying they haven't added any new types ever would be a better argument.Myles said:Also the fact that they haven't added any types except to fix the overpowered Psychics doesn't discount the Light type. A better argument would be that they haven't added any new types ever, but that isn't true.
It would still be a pointless addition to the game. Also, it would be difficult to ignore them if some previous Pokemon were re-typed to Light/Whatever, which would most likely happen should the Light type be introduced, or any type for that matter. If light is underpowered, then the re-typing would hurt the metagame a lot.Myles said:Yes, but chances are it won't be underpowered, but even if it was, it wouldn't ruin the game, since there would only be a few Light types that could otherwise be ignore. Even if they were underpowered anyway, if there's a legenary one, it should still have some power. And they could always further balance it out in the next generation. Although I severely doubt it would be unbalance.
So you think that Gamefreak purposely created an imbalance in the metagame from the start, yet you insist that they would never imbalance the metagame. For some reason, that doesn't make sense to me. I think that Gamefreak thought they limited Psychic types enough by giving them poor Defense and HP and decided that they didn't need too many weaknesses. Instead, it turned out that Psychics dominated with their high Special stat.Myles said:I think Psychic was intentionally more powrful than the others, just they didn't expect how much (not to mention the whole Ghost thing).
They have been gradually increasing the power of bugs through the years. However, bugs don't fare well in the metagame because many of their weaknesses are common in the higher tiers. They just need to multi-type bugs with something that can negate one of its weaknesses to balance it out a bit more, as well as add a few stronger attacks. It doesn't really matter if it's as interesting as a new type, either. It's already in the games, which is something this "new type" doesn't have the benefit of, and hopefully never will.Myles said:And I wouldn't object to Bug getting evened out as well. But I think its intetionally underpowered, since they don't seem to be wanting to give them more power. And balancing Bug wouldn't be as interesting as a new type anyway.
Bah, I forgot about the physical/special split. However, I stand by my assertion that the metagame doesn't need a major change to be interesting. Any new attack/ability combinations that are released in the fifth generation will make it interesting enough.
It doesn't, but as that's the only time new types have been added, I find it unlikely that a new type would be added this late in the series. Also, I somehow find a false argument weaker than that which is true, so I don't think saying they haven't added any new types ever would be a better argument.
On the subject of a Light type legendary, or any new type for that matter, if the new type has too many weaknesses and the type itself is underpowered, then the legendary will be underpowered as well, no matter its BST. Also, the point is that the balance should be maintained in the fifth generation, not the sixth. This game will have wifi capabilities, so the utmost care should be taken to make sure the metagame stays balanced. Plus, it doesn't matter if you severely doubt that a new type will create an imbalance. I think that there are going to be several problems with adding a new type. It's obvious by the way I post. Your opinion is obvious by the way that you post. Neither of us have need of blatantly stating it once per post.
So you think that Gamefreak purposely created an imbalance in the metagame from the start, yet you insist that they would never imbalance the metagame. For some reason, that doesn't make sense to me. I think that Gamefreak thought they limited Psychic types enough by giving them poor Defense and HP and decided that they didn't need too many weaknesses. Instead, it turned out that Psychics dominated with their high Special stat.
If there isn't a major change than the two generations' metagames would be very similar. So it would be just like playing the same metagame for twice as long as usual with only small changes in the middle. It could even use Shoddy for the most part, just a few edits for the new moves.
I don't see how the length of the series comes into it though. You don't see people saying no new features can be added to other game series because 'it's too late in the series'.
Yes, but based on people's replies it seemed like it was coming off as me saying that it probably will be underpowered. But really in Gen II GameFreak managed to balance out five types (Steel, dark, Fighting, Bug and Psychic) at a time, while not unbalancing other types. That would be harder than balancing just Light while not affecting the others.
Do you even follow other canons? Fans resist most dramatical changes of the canon or gameplay features, especially so if the series has been around for a long time already. When FF changed to semi-realtime battling, a lot of people were outraged. When it turned out the new Ace Attorney game would not have Phoenix Wright in it, people were extremely sceptical. If Nintendo wanted to add gunpowder-using weaponry to Zelda, people would resist it.