Old School and New School Episode Opinion

[OriginalPokemon150]

Hey everyone, I just joined this website because I have a lot to say and want to get it all off my chest! I can see that this is where all the diehard Pokémon fans chat! I should first start off that I am 25 years old. I have only watched the first two seasons of Pokémon. I own the indigo league season. And I'm about to own the Orange League season. When I was young, I stopped watching after those two, partly because I went through a stage where Pokémon wasn't cool anymore and another reason is I didn't want to give Pokémon a chance moving forward because the first two seasons were just so good. Every now and then I will go through a phase and watch every episode of season 1!

Today, I decided to watch one episode of today's generation. I watched episode one of season 18. I am really frustrated where Pokémon is right now. Just terrible. I realize that today generation doesn't care because they don't understand how big and how great the show was back in the day, but I feel like it is a slap in the face on how much they changed Pokémon. No Misty and Brock? Seriously? There's no excuse for that. Also the people that do their voices now are horrible also. They should have never change voice actors. Horrible idea. I also read that Ash has never won a tournament besides the Orange league. If that's true, they are really dragging this out to get every penny. He should've became a master 10 to 12 years ago. He has never aged either. Is he always going to be 10 years old? I understand having to move on from the original 150 Pokémon. That's fine. But the show is repetitive now. Watching season 18 today, was the exact same thing season one was. What Pokémon writers should've done was made Ash a master and then move into a different direction, maybe with a different character. It's just sad where it's at right now.

I am thinking about going through seasons 3,4,5 and then that's it because they still have the original Pokémon and those are the last seasons I believe Ash Misty and Brock are all together at one time if I am not mistaking. I can see why people like those episodes and seasons but after that, I just don't get it, so repetitive. The only thing I would probably like in the later seasons is still hearing the original voice actors, but they took that away also. I would like to hear your guys thoughts and opinions on what I have to say!

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I agree with you, every word of it.

Probably the closest we've gotten to actual progress was in Johto (which is understandable, as they were clearly trying to make it a continuing series with an actual story) as well as possibly DP (the only series other than the Original Series to have Ash at least get better than before in terms of League Ranking, which, you know, is supposed to be one of the main points of the journey). Other than that, they just reset everything, which is really cheap as well as ruins the entire point. They also replaced a lot of characters, and in the case of the girls, it was clearly due to their viewing them as "eyecandy" (which is really disgusting given the implications of that. Seriously, it's bad enough that they only view girls as objects for sexual exploitation, what's even worse is that they're 10). Honestly, other than Johto of the original series, the only time in the various new series (AG, DP, BW, and the like) where it actually came very close to winning the league was with DP, and even THAT ended up ending without Ash winning a league through a convenient deus ex machine thanks largely to the writers wasting their time with fillers throughout DP out of an arrogant sense of not having to worry about new generations. The other series, specifically AG and BW, had Ash either doing the same as he had before, or doing even worse than before, respectively. Oh, and the gym leaders are treated extremely badly, being depicted as being JJM clones. I get they aren't going to be as strong as the Elite 4. However, that does NOT mean they should be depicted as losing to Pokémon who are clearly inexperienced, as that just makes them look bad by comparison. The closest we've gotten to Gym Leaders actually being treated with the respect they deserve and actually being depicted as strong, even if not to Elite 4 levels since the original series was XY.

And the only exception to changing voice actors is if one of the voice actors had died or if they prematurely left for whatever reason, like firing or quitting or whatever. Other than that, it's too much of a risk to change voice actors.

And yeah, Ash never ages at all which is another problem. It's one thing if this were the Simpsons, as they have a floating timeline and no real overarching goal. It's quite another for something like Pokémon to NOT have aging, especially when we've got plenty of instances of time passing, including, ironically enough, BW's penultimate episode, which was the series that explicitly confirmed in the show that Ash is still 10 (while prior series such as AG and DP have stated he was 10 in various eye-catchers, they never directly stated whether Ash aged in any of the actual respective shows). Dragon Ball has characters aging, and it has largely the same kind of growing stronger plotline as Pokémon. Heck, even the Dead or Alive series, which also had characters staying a specific age for four whole games (plus two volleyball games), actually HAD them age by two whole years (not to mention the passage of time was still implied with the Ninja Gaiden remake series, which took place two years before the first Dead or Alive.).

The game series has fairly little problem, but not the Anime, it's basically tanking in ratings right now, and I wouldn't even be surprised if XY turns out to be the last series period.

 

[Iceshadow3317]

Honestly Johto to me is probably the worst season. Kanto being the right next to it.

Unova, Sinnoh, and Kalos are the best season by far for me. Kalos being the best period. I loved Unova as well. I don't know why people hate it so much.

The anime isn't going to end. It is too big to end. With still 4million view in Japan and the most popular on kids tv in America has an average of 1mil to 2mil viewers. I don't see why people think it will end.

Even the filler episodes of Kalos are the best I have ever seen.

 

[OriginalPokemon150]

Honestly Johto to me is probably the worst season. Kanto being the right next to it.

Unova, Sinnoh, and Kalos are the best season by far for me. Kalos being the best period. I loved Unova as well. I don't know why people hate it so much.

The anime isn't going to end. It is too big to end. With still 4million view in Japan and the most popular on kids tv in America has an average of 1mil to 2mil viewers. I don't see why people think it will end.

Even the filler episodes of Kalos are the best I have ever seen.

Kanto and Johto the worst? you ok man? The seasons are classics and they have some ALL TIME GREAT episodes. That's saying Rocky 5 is better than Rocky 1

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Honestly Johto to me is probably the worst season. Kanto being the right next to it.

Unova, Sinnoh, and Kalos are the best season by far for me. Kalos being the best period. I loved Unova as well. I don't know why people hate it so much.

The anime isn't going to end. It is too big to end. With still 4million view in Japan and the most popular on kids tv in America has an average of 1mil to 2mil viewers. I don't see why people think it will end.

Even the filler episodes of Kalos are the best I have ever seen.

In case you've forgotten, Kanto had 15 million viewers, maybe 17 million tops. It being 4 million is actually a show that the show is actually becoming increasingly unpopular, to the extent that it's in the red zone.

And for the record, Unova being hated was largely because they made Ash into a complete idiot who can't even beat a trainer who was quite literally starting out on his journey, needlessly made JJM OOC in a half-baked attempt of making them more "serious," and then botching that afterwards, not to mention having Ash bomb the Unova League (getting a far worse rank than before) and to top it all off, wasn't even able to redeem himself of it with a filler league because they just went through an entirely pointless region just to pad out time. Oh, and completely screwing with canon by making another Mewtwo and others.

 

[Hikamaru]

I can understand your problem, since I've seen many others wearing so-called "nostalgia goggles" and reacting negatively to the newer episodes after a long hiatus from watching the anime.

Even though 5th Gen was my fave as far as the games were concerned, it was not the same for the anime because as mentioned above, the Rocket Vs Plasma two-parter was all but aborted and written out after the terrible earthquake of 2011, Ash losing in the league to a trainer who many label as clumsy and "cheated" his way to victory with a newly-evolved Lucario, not to mention Ash himself was acting even more like an idiot compared to previous sagas (thank god XY fixed that).

Also, from what I heard from most people, Iris ended up being one of the most negatively-received companions of the entire anime series to date. Most of that negative reception she got from long-time viewers was her infamous "what a kid" comments directed towards Ash.

As for the dub's new voice actors, they have been active since 2006 which is almost a decade. They were brought in when the series lost their 4Kids dubbing license, and to save costs, replaced all except two of the original voice cast (Kayzie Rogers and Jimmy Zoppi were the two that were spared), with the others all being new to the series but still have had credits on other shows.

XY in my opinion is being really interesting so far, given I think they have been breaking the mold lately. Serena's epic haircut moment was labelled by me as one of the most emotionally impactful moments of the series, in fact some claim they haven't seen a scene this emotional since Pikachu's Goodbye.

While the ratings for XY have not been very good, the thing to remember is the anime serves as a way to advertise the games so unless we stop getting new games, we probably won't see an end to the anime anytime soon.

 

[Garchomp]

Spoiler:

Hey everyone, I just joined this website because I have a lot to say and want to get it all off my chest! I can see that this is where all the diehard Pokémon fans chat! I should first start off that I am 25 years old. I have only watched the first two seasons of Pokémon. I own the indigo league season. And I'm about to own the Orange League season. When I was young, I stopped watching after those two, partly because I went through a stage where Pokémon wasn't cool anymore and another reason is I didn't want to give Pokémon a chance moving forward because the first two seasons were just so good. Every now and then I will go through a phase and watch every episode of season 1!

Today, I decided to watch one episode of today's generation. I watched episode one of season 18. I am really frustrated where Pokémon is right now. Just terrible. I realize that today generation doesn't care because they don't understand how big and how great the show was back in the day, but I feel like it is a slap in the face on how much they changed Pokémon. No Misty and Brock? Seriously? There's no excuse for that. Also the people that do their voices now are horrible also. They should have never change voice actors. Horrible idea. I also read that Ash has never won a tournament besides the Orange league. If that's true, they are really dragging this out to get every penny. He should've became a master 10 to 12 years ago. He has never aged either. Is he always going to be 10 years old? I understand having to move on from the original 150 Pokémon. That's fine. But the show is repetitive now. Watching season 18 today, was the exact same thing season one was. What Pokémon writers should've done was made Ash a master and then move into a different direction, maybe with a different character. It's just sad where it's at right now.

I am thinking about going through seasons 3,4,5 and then that's it because they still have the original Pokémon and those are the last seasons I believe Ash Misty and Brock are all together at one time if I am not mistaking. I can see why people like those episodes and seasons but after that, I just don't get it, so repetitive. The only thing I would probably like in the later seasons is still hearing the original voice actors, but they took that away also. I would like to hear your guys thoughts and opinions on what I have to say!

Tbh, I don't ever remember having the anime on a pedestal when I was watching OS. I will say the earlier seasons had more heart and had better humor while the newer seasons feel a lot more like a marketing campaign. Having read what you said, I'm really surprised you never actually watched Johto/3-5, which is the last of what people call OS, but yeah I can understand your reasoning. I have actually watched all episodes up to the current ones unlike someone else that just reads episode summaries, and I guess I'll just address some things you said since you're looking for opinions I suppose.

- When you mention voice actors, I'm assuming you're addressing the 4kid dub compared to the TPCi dub. That happened during the Battle Frontier arc(season 9ish, I believe), and it was probably weird until the end of Diamond & Pearl, which was when I got used to it. I stopped watching the english dub midway through Black & White because I figured there was no point in me watching the original Japanese airing AND the english version, because I didn't really like BW. BUT, I will say, there would have been voice changes eventually, and we saw that with Eric Stuart leaving for different work and the death of Maddie Blaustine.

- I don't think the original trio(Brock, Ash, Misty) is the end all, be all of the anime. I don't discount anything they've brought to the table, but there are also other characters that have come on board that have brought other things to the table as well. Tbh, I probably wouldn't have continued watching if the original trio went past season 5, mostly because they started getting tired during Johto. It's always nice to get new faces that bring interesting group dynamics, and AG(Hoenn) really gave the characters left a breath of fresh air. Also, I got tired of Brock during DP, so I can't imagine having him on the series forever, and if you throw Misty into the mix, then it would be truly repetitive.

- I think if you don't play the games, the "new school" anime will inherently mean less to you. Johto was really the tip of the iceberg when it game to dragging stuff out and DP was probably the height. Each season in between and including them has plenty of filler episodes. There was something like a year's gap real time between Sinnoh's 7th and 8th gym battle, and the only thing that really helped me keep watching was the idea of watching what I played in the games in a bigger picture; that could be things like evil teams, pokemon, and locations.

- I will agree with you, not winning any actual tournaments is annoying, that's something that I don't think anyone will disagree with.

- The big one, about how "how big and how great" it used to be. I saw the episodes when they were airing, and when I couldn't, I'd watch re-runs, I was there watching exactly what you saw. I rewatched the first series around two years ago, and I was honestly disappointed. Seriously, when I rewatched it with more discerning and critical eyes, and it wasn't as good in a story-telling sense as some of the series afterwards were. That's not to say that it wasn't really, really fun to watch again and remember all the moments, but when I rewatched it, it all goes by so fast, so a lot of the character development for the main trio happened after the first season; gym leaders looked worse here than anywhere else, like some got a couple of episodes and some got just the one they battled in, whereas currently, the formula is to give each gym leader three episodes, so we can see what they're like and to maybe even give a crap about them.

If you're really into the games, or have played RBGY/FRLG, check out Pokemon:Origins, it's what the adaptation of the games should have looked like.

Kanto and Johto the worst? you ok man? The seasons are classics and they have some ALL TIME GREAT episodes. That's saying Rocky 5 is better than Rocky 1

You asked for an opinion, and you got one.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

For the record, I DID watch the Johto episodes in that marathon, and I honestly didn't see what the negative fuss was about with the ones I saw. And I certainly didn't see anything that indicated that Misty "did nothing." Brock, maybe, but not Misty. AND I have the whole first season to watch (and in fact I DID watch the first season WITH critical eyes and I didn't see it as all that bad. Sure, maybe they should have had Ash lose with honor, maybe Ash should have gotten half of his badges by actually beating the Gym Leaders, but on the other hand, at least it had some good things, like Misty doing stuff, the fact that they actually DID try to treat Ash's Pokémon Master goal seriously, among other things. And at least the Gym Leaders were actually depicted as skilled [Misty's sisters notwithstanding], unlike with Hoenn, Unova, and even Sinnoh to some extent. I think XY is currently the only series that comes close to the original series in that regard.). And I actually DID watch the first few episodes of DP, up to the Roark episodes, so don't think I didn't even attempt to watch DP at all.

And why do you get irritated when people just read summaries, anyways? Are you going to hold historians with contempt as well? After all, they never lived through history or witnessed it, so they obviously can't be trusted for any insight if we use your logic. Can you trust a Civil War historian when they obviously have never lived through the event? By your logic, we shouldn't trust them at all precisely because they never lived through it.

And speaking as a guy with a near-eidetic memory, I don't use nostalgia goggles at all. Everything I see, I remember with clear clarity from when I last watched it. Many times it's actually a curse, really.

 

[Garchomp]

Spoiler:

For the record, I DID watch the Johto episodes in that marathon, and I honestly didn't see what the negative fuss was about with the ones I saw. And I certainly didn't see anything that indicated that Misty "did nothing." Brock, maybe, but not Misty. AND I have the whole first season to watch (and in fact I DID watch the first season WITH critical eyes and I didn't see it as all that bad. Sure, maybe they should have had Ash lose with honor, maybe Ash should have gotten half of his badges by actually beating the Gym Leaders, but on the other hand, at least it had some good things, like Misty doing stuff, the fact that they actually DID try to treat Ash's Pokémon Master goal seriously, among other things. And at least the Gym Leaders were actually depicted as skilled [Misty's sisters notwithstanding], unlike with Hoenn, Unova, and even Sinnoh to some extent. I think XY is currently the only series that comes close to the original series in that regard.). And I actually DID watch the first few episodes of DP, up to the Roark episodes, so don't think I didn't even attempt to watch DP at all.

And why do you get irritated when people just read summaries, anyways? Are you going to hold historians with contempt as well? After all, they never lived through history or witnessed it, so they obviously can't be trusted for any insight if we use your logic. Can you trust a Civil War historian when they obviously have never lived through the event? By your logic, we shouldn't trust them at all precisely because they never lived through it.

I know you watched Johto. Never said "Misty did nothing". Never said it was "bad", just that it wasn't as great or godly as I remember it as when I was a child. Misty did more during Johto. The gym leaders in Kanto were more gimmicky than anything else, and I could only really take Surge and Blaine seriously as gym leaders. I only found the treatment of a few gym leaders to be disgusting, like Wattson, Elesa, and Marlon off the top of my head; "thunder armor" at the end of Tate&Liza was really reaching. You've mentioned you've watched around 9-10% of DP, so congratulations, you've been able to fully experience the journey of Dawn, taken in the evil that was Team Galactic, and witnessed the best rival in Paul. You've seen it all.

First, straw man. Second, I can promise I'm not the only irritated by you reading summaries. There are different reasons people might get irritated by you posting about series after only reading summaries. The reason why I personally get irritated is because you comment about characters that you clearly haven't watched before presented in a way like you've actually watched them and seen the complexities they bring to the narrative. Example: I really don't care about what your "love hina stereotype" is in relation to May because I know you haven't watched AG. You can't form a strong opinion about a character based on episode summaries and other people's posts, so of course none of them compare to Misty in your eyes. Because your Civil war comparison is absolutely ridiculous, a better comparison would be reading the summary of a movie. You might read "character X dies", but you don't know anything about the character outside of whatever is in the wikipedia summary; you don't care, because you don't connect with them. You're not only missing out on one of the few good things left with the anime, but pretending like you know these characters when you couldn't give a crap about them. That's why it really grates when I see things like "she falls under my love hina stereotype", because you don't actually know the characters.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I wasn't necessarily accusing you of claiming Misty did nothing in that region, but unfortunately, I've seen a lot of people resort to that comment when railing on regarding how Johto's the worst region, even when at least Johto actually HAD Ash improving his rank and doing better, which can't be said for AG or especially BW. And I also have heard a LOT of people say that the original series was bad because of bad gym battles (quite frankly, I felt AG and BW's Gym Battles were worse. Most of the "freebies" were in Kanto, and even then it only was half of the Gym Leaders rather than all of them, and the only one that actually would qualify as a sucky gym battle was Team Rocket in Kanto, and even with them, they actually were a challenge compared to prior encounters. AG and BW had Ash using a rookie team to pretty much slaughter most of the gym leaders of Hoenn and Unova, and in the case of the latter region, even the one battle that actually did have Ash lose was done in such a horrendous fashion that a lot of viewers called foul on the loss [Smogon I believe it was].). I can even name one person in particular who does this a lot. Cybercubed. Actually, two people: PDL as well. I'm just going by experience from SPPf and BMGf, so don't take it personally. And sorry if I did do a straw man, because that wasn't my intent. Whenever I hear someone imply that my memory is not good (again, not you, and in fact that post wasn't directed just towards you, it was also to Hikamaru, who used the rose-colored glasses remark, which generally implies their memories are impaired by bias), especially regarding something I actually like and watch, I get irritated, and as you can see, my fury has no bounds.

EDIT: Oh, and another thing, based on the fact that merchandising sales are actually very low (according to Irregular Hunter Z), the show may end up cancelled in the near future.

 

[Garchomp]

Spoiler:

I wasn't necessarily accusing you of claiming Misty did nothing in that region, but unfortunately, I've seen a lot of people resort to that comment when railing on regarding how Johto's the worst region, even when at least Johto actually HAD Ash improving his rank and doing better, which can't be said for AG or especially BW. And I also have heard a LOT of people say that the original series was bad because of bad gym battles (quite frankly, I felt AG and BW's Gym Battles were worse. Most of the "freebies" were in Kanto, and even then it only was half of the Gym Leaders rather than all of them, and the only one that actually would qualify as a sucky gym battle was Team Rocket in Kanto, and even with them, they actually were a challenge compared to prior encounters. AG and BW had Ash using a rookie team to pretty much slaughter most of the gym leaders of Hoenn and Unova, and in the case of the latter region, even the one battle that actually did have Ash lose was done in such a horrendous fashion that a lot of viewers called foul on the loss [Smogon I believe it was].). I can even name one person in particular who does this a lot. Cybercubed. Actually, two people: PDL as well. I'm just going by experience from SPPf and BMGf, so don't take it personally. And sorry if I did do a straw man, because that wasn't my intent. Whenever I hear someone imply that my memory is not good (again, not you, and in fact that post wasn't directed just towards you, it was also to Hikamaru, who used the rose-colored glasses remark, which generally implies their memories are impaired by bias), especially regarding something I actually like and watch, I get irritated, and as you can see, my fury has no bounds.

Well, I'm not in the "a lot of people" group, as I think Misty did more in Johto than Kanto and Orange combined. I'll reach and say people say Johto was when the anime started going downhill because that's when we started getting more fillers.

I don't think OS is bad solely based on gym battles. Kanto, half the gym "battles" were a joke, but the rest of OS(Orange & Johto) were fine. I really don't care about whether or not he uses "rookie" pokemon/teams, as he does this every region. You look at AG and BW, but it's the same as every other region, whether it's brand-new pikachu vs onix, chikorita vs pidgeotto, turtwig vs rampardos, etc. The question is: do the gym leaders look competent? Generally, yes, aside from a couple of outliers.

I'm not on SPPf or BMGf, so I wouldn't know, but I'm on here, so when I see and know that information or characters are being grossly misrepresented, I'll call it out, and you happen to be the biggest offender I've seen here. In no way was I implying your memory is no good, simply stating that because you don't actually watch the new stuff, you shouldn't try to be misrepresenting characters from an "intelligent" perspective because you don't watch the new stuff to develop any sort of care about them, and I think that's a fair critique about your posts in general. I don't even think Hikamaru was implying you, but I wouldn't know.

 

[twillight]

I hate people crying over Misty and Brock, two undeveloped, misfigured, overused character. The real problem is, each and every companion, professor, andanyone else Ash meets disappears into thin air after departing.

I think the voices are actually ok, especially for a kids show. They are all high-piched, but if that'd be the only problem of the show I'd be happy.

If you want to see good progress, watch Battle Frontier and Diamond and Pearl's League (except Tobias). Heck, the best sagas were:
1. Battle Frontier
2. Diamond and Pearl (except Tobias)
3. Advanced Generations (if you can get over the fact it is a semi-reboot)
4. Kanto (the majority of the content was stolen from Dragon Ball, a lot of things had to be readjusted later, still wasn't as terrible as some others)
5. Orange Islands (it was full of trying out new dumb things, but oh well)
6. Johto (it was terribly flat, but it wasn't exactly bad)
7. Unova (it was a disaster, but it turned out not the rock-bottom)
8. XY: the extremely rare episodes which advance the plot are actually good, almost great, but 99% of it is dumb, insulting, Tom&Jerry Kids quality fillers. I quote from IMDB so you understand:

it's very BAD in itself as a cartoon show.
If that was meant for very young children (5 years or less) so this is why they aimed it at audience doesn't comprehend much ! The characters are so weak, the comedy is invisible, the vitality is lost, so the silliness conquered and ruled. The idea of Tom and Jerry Kids or even Young Tom and Jerry wasn't handled well. It's not only the dethroning of the main leads' legendary halo, but also the easy inane adventures. It's the TV, and I do mean it in a bad way.
It's not the sin of Tom and Jerry, it's the sin of that low exploitation which didn't add anything to their legacy but some trivial, unbearable sometimes, buffoonery.

Everything this guy says applies to XY.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Well, I'm not in the "a lot of people" group, as I think Misty did more in Johto than Kanto and Orange combined. I'll reach and say people say Johto was when the anime started going downhill because that's when we started getting more fillers.

I don't think OS is bad solely based on gym battles. Kanto, half the gym "battles" were a joke, but the rest of OS(Orange & Johto) were fine. I really don't care about whether or not he uses "rookie" pokemon/teams, as he does this every region. You look at AG and BW, but it's the same as every other region, whether it's brand-new pikachu vs onix, chikorita vs pidgeotto, turtwig vs rampardos, etc. The question is: do the gym leaders look competent? Generally, yes, aside from a couple of outliers.

I'm not on SPPf or BMGf, so I wouldn't know, but I'm on here, so when I see and know that information or characters are being grossly misrepresented, I'll call it out, and you happen to be the biggest offender I've seen here. In no way was I implying your memory is no good, simply stating that because you don't actually watch the new stuff, you shouldn't try to be misrepresenting characters from an "intelligent" perspective because you don't watch the new stuff to develop any sort of care about them, and I think that's a fair critique about your posts in general. I don't even think Hikamaru was implying you, but I wouldn't know.

At least with Kanto, Ash was just starting out, and besides which, the gym leaders actually WERE treated as being skilled. Johto also still treated the Gym Leaders as being skilled (and for the record, Ash didn't rely on an entirely rookie team barring Pikachu in Johto either, unlike with AG, DP, or BW. I definitely know that Falkner and Claire were beaten with Charizard, for example. And Ash did take some tries to beat the Gym Leaders with his rookie team, like with Whitney). The same can't be said with AG/Hoenn (yes, there were some exceptions, like with Brawley and to some degree Roxanne. But most of them actually WERE pushed over, even Norman, who really only won so they would have an excuse to force Ash to go down the gym path of the games). DP at least initially tried to actually pose a challenge to Ash's rookie team before it ultimately fell apart (and for the record, no, Team Rocket interrupting matches does NOT count towards showing either trainer's skills against the other as it's rendered inconclusive).

I've actually seen May and Dawn in action, so I actually do have enough to hate them. That's also why I don't complain about whether Iris or Serena are of the Hina stereotype or not, since I haven't seen them in action.

I hate people crying over Misty and Brock, two undeveloped, misfigured, overused character. The real problem is, each and every companion, professor, andanyone else Ash meets disappears into thin air after departing.

At least most of Ash's other companions actually ARE continuing on their own goals (and yes, that includes Brock as well, even if he did change his goals, he at least did it of his own accord), though I'll agree that Max, alongside Misty, really got the short end of the stick. And honestly, we know what the professors are going to be doing anyhow, so why bother wanting to see them again? Kurt, I can understand, since they basically botched the GS Ball arc all thanks to Pokémon 4Ever, but the others? We don't even need to see them again, especially not if there was no indication that they will see each other again. And for the record, the rivals and departed Pokémon not reappearing at all especially when promised they would was also not good, and most of that was AG's fault (Ash at least had an excuse for not revisiting Pidgeot in Johto, since he wasn't exactly given the opportunity before Oak sent him to Johto. He had no excuse in Battle Frontier, where he not only didn't have any pressing matters to attend to, but he actually was travelling through the area he left Pidgeot at).

Oh, and for the record, Misty was definitely not undeveloped. She did a lot of things, had a lot of personality quirks, and was given some things to do beyond being a robot or a one-note character. She certainly was a lot more developed than Serena, who ties with May as being the one character who literally had no real reason to even bother travelling at all, let alone with Ash (Serena thinks of him as a "childhood friend" when they've literally only met once, and Ash barely even remembers her, not to mention wasn't alluded to even ONCE before her debut. It took her over 40 episodes to actually give her a goal, not to mention 50 for her to actually start pursuing her goal, and it took very long for her to even GET a Pokémon besides her starter. In fact, pretty much the only reason she even bothered travelling was because of Ash. May was tied with her because, let's face it, she initially hated Pokémon. Sure, she got out of that rut eventually, but she still had absolutely no reason whatsoever for travelling when she hates the very thing that, you know, you're supposed to be capturing as a Pokémon Trainer.). Honestly, at least Dawn wanted to follow in Joanna's footsteps, Iris wanted to prove herself to her village elders, and even Misty desired to prove her worth to her vain sisters. What exactly did May and Serena have?

And Misty's not misfigured, either. In fact, she actually RESEMBLES a 10 year old, unlike, say, May and Serena.

And Misty's not overused either. Brock may have been overused, but not Misty, especially when she has a goal that actually IS active. Besides, are you going to claim that Ash or, heck, Jessie James and Meowth even are overused? If anything, they actually prematurely removed her (something even Takeshi Shudo admitted in his blogs).

And as far as progress, Kanto, Orange Islands, and Johto are the only ones that actually had progress. DP as well, to a certain extent (since at least that saga actually HAD Ash increase in rank, even if it was one single league). AG (and yes, I'm counting Battle Frontier in this) had Ash staying at the same rank as he did in Johto, which isn't even close to progress, and the closest thing to an actual achievement he ever had in that saga, the Battle Frontier, was ultimately treated as pointless considering Ash still loses against Paul and Gary (and the latter had retired from Pokémon Training), not to mention apparently wasn't even good enough with his Pikachu to win against the first Gym Leader. BW, no need to state the disaster that series was, and XY hasn't even gotten to the Kalos league yet, so I'm not sure what the progress is yet (though that being said, so far the Gym Leaders actually ARE being depicted as skilled, certainly more than AG and BW anyways, and may actually come close to the level of the original series).

 

[Lizardo]

And I actually DID watch the first few episodes of DP, up to the Roark episodes, so don't think I didn't even attempt to watch DP at all.

And why do you get irritated when people just read summaries, anyways? Are you going to hold historians with contempt as well? After all, they never lived through history or witnessed it, so they obviously can't be trusted for any insight if we use your logic. Can you trust a Civil War historian when they obviously have never lived through the event? By your logic, we shouldn't trust them at all precisely because they never lived through it.

An off-topic post, apologies to the mods (I don't plan on continuing further), but this comment is so ridiculous that it needs to be addressed:

This is an asinine statement for many reasons. First off, discussing or criticizing a television show isn't the same thing as studying history. And a television critic who wants their opinion taken seriously has to be familiar with the work they're critiquing in order to have a valid opinion on it. If our last argument was anything to go by, you are not familiar at all with the whole of the Diamond & Pearl anime to discuss it in the way that you do. I'm sure you're just as uninformed about the other, post-OS shows, too.

Moreover, a good historian of eras they haven't lived through and/or aren't heavily documented would have the self-awareness to realize that the information they're working with can't paint a complete picture of the time period in question. A good historian would realize that they can't know everything about an era they haven't lived through. Therefore, even if they come to conclusions, they're always willing to alter them based on whatever new information becomes available. A good historian would also use all the tools available to them to arrive at their conclusions, they wouldn't ignore sources that would give them a better picture of events.

If you think the approach to being a historian is anything like your approached critiquing entertainment (in this case, DP), then you'd be laughed at by good historians. Because your opinions are flawed, based on incomplete or inaccurate information, and you're unwilling to even consider altering them or even doing the most basic thing one has to do to critique episodes of television show: watching them. You get contradicted with statements from people who have watched the show (meaning the whole thing or, at least, most of it - not just 15 episodes), whose thoughts about it are informed, and your response is to stick your head in the sand and continue on with flawed, biased, and uninformed opinions - and then you go on to repeat them all over the forum over and over again.

There are plenty of valid criticisms one could apply to DP (not everyone who has seen DP loves it or regards it highly), but you barely know any of them. The sad thing is, you can see every episode dubbed and approximately half the series is available with subs. If you really wanted, you could watch DP and come away with real, informed criticism about it. But you don't, and that makes most of your opinions about it laughable at best. Yours is the kind of mindset that would also make for a terrible historian. Because what historian worth taking seriously wouldn't want to absorb every source so that their opinions and conclusions are as informed as they can be?

And if you don't want to watch DP because you don't like anything you hear about it? That's fine, too. But don't act like you can truly argue the show with people who've seen it because you read a summary on Bulbapedia or something. And don't compare what you do to that of a good historians work. It's an insult to both criticism and historical study.

 

[twillight]

Johto was officially 80% filler. you can't claim progress there.

And Misty... No real goal, no interaction, no personality. What did she do? She claimed she wants water mons, but never catched one. For entire seasons shejust went around holding Togepi, than she switched on to grab Brock by the ear. Literally this was the only thing Misty ever did. And her look looked like a perfectly breeded pokemon (aka. ugly as heck). I'mso glad they got rid of her. Should have done it after Indigo League!

BF was only pointless by Ash not accepting the role. Your examples are not Ash's fault, but the anime, what made the lvl 666 pikachu loose against a lvl 1 starter.

XY has 0 progress. It is entirely made of fillers, while in the side-series a real Pokemon Master prepares (as far as I heared, as I did not watch the specials yet). Seriously, Ash has 4 tier 2 mons with no chance for going mega, while in the side-stories people now - despite previously an entire saga said it is impossible - roaming around with mega-groudon 6packs.
Face it, the anime no longer has any validity.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

^And in case you've forgotten, I actually DID read up on plot summaries, statements on TVTropes, episode reviews, which is much of the same thing. And I've seen bad historians BTW, so don't think I don't know about any historians who are an insult to historical study. At least it's actually something rather than simply complaining about something I haven't even heard about, so at least be glad I took some effort in trying to communicate about the series despite not watching it, including keeping myself informed.

Oh, and for the record, just so you're aware, TVTropes considered Paul to be very abusive and that his role in the moral of differing training styles actually was broken as a result, labeling him such things as a Jerk-Sue, a Scrappy, a Creator's Pet, and also mentioning that his actions were very abusive, and the only reason why Ash wasn't in the right to call him out on it was precisely because of a forced Aesop:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CluelessAesop

"Pokémon introduced the character of Paul as Ash's main rival during the seasons set in Sinnoh. Paul and Ash had frequent disagreements, only to have other characters lecture Ash about how they should try to overlook their differences, because everyone is different and has their own ways of doing things which should be respected. Paul, however, was extremely aggressive without provocation and was also particularly cruel to his Pokemon, crueler than most of the clear-cut villains were; were it not for the forced Aesop Ash would have every right to judge him."

Heck, you actually can find out more on how Paul is loathed on YMMV/Pokémon Anime as well. Since you stated Paul was one of the best rivals and showed differing circumstances (which really as it was just indicated moral relativity than an actual difference in styles) in past statements, I figured I should get you more informed.

Johto was officially 80% filler. you can't claim progress there.

Actually, according to DBZ Fan at least (and he's watched through all of Johto, so he'd know), only 30% actually qualified as filler. Besides, Ash actually got Top 8 in Johto, which is an improvement over his getting Top 16 in Kanto, even you have to admit that, and since it's an improved rank, that means it's progress. Want a series that actually WAS at least 80% filler and had no real progress? Just look at AG: Ash literally stays at the same rank as he did in Johto by the end of Hoenn, neither improving nor doing worse than before, his one true accomplishment in AG, the Battle Frontier, was treated as a joke later on, and they don't even have the decency of, after replacing May with Dawn, to actually GIVE Dawn a different goal to actually have contests mean something. There was literally no progress at all, with Best Wishes probably having even less progress. If it weren't for the fact that Ash caught several Pokémon, I probably would say AG was purely a filler show.

And Misty... No real goal, no interaction, no personality. What did she do? She claimed she wants water mons, but never catched one. For entire seasons shejust went around holding Togepi, than she switched on to grab Brock by the ear. Literally this was the only thing Misty ever did. And her look looked like a perfectly breeded pokemon (aka. ugly as heck). I'mso glad they got rid of her. Should have done it after Indigo League!

Let's see, she caught Horsea, she kinda caught Psyduck, she caught Poliwag, and she caught Corsola. Those are Water Types. And if we count evolutions (the Pokedex in the games certainly does, at least), she also caught Poliwhirl and Politoed.

And I can name plenty of stuff that she did, like save Porta Vista from the Tentacool/Tentacruel (which, BTW, was also the episode where she caught Horsea, so you can't dismiss that as filler), pretty much save Ash's life in the first episode, actually save her friends and Team Rocket from the St. Anne (heck, she's pretty much the one who actually planned the escape route), pretty much acting as the reason Ash was able to even get to Cinnabar Gym, never mind earn the Volcano Badge, (she solved four out of five riddles made by Blaine), saved Ash, Tracey, and Jessie from stun sporeitis (and like with the Tentacool/Tentacruel example, this was also the episode where she caught Poliwag, so you can't dismiss it as filler), won that Princess Festival Contest (and since that's the same episode that Jessie captured Lickitung, you can't dismiss that as filler either), and there's also the Whirl Cup thing that she did, and challenged that Water Gym in Johto. That's a whole lot more than "doing nothing besides pulling Brock's ear and/or holding Togepi." (and your comment about Togepi reminds me, it's people like you that are the reason we've got Pokemon who were seriously overpowered like May's Squirtle, May's Eevee, and Dawn's Piplup, and those characters are hated in large part because of their being overpowered especially with their level. If you, Pokemopolis, Cybercubed, and the like hadn't just constantly complained about Togepi not doing anything as if battling is the only way characters actually DO something, even when Togepi wasn't even meant to be used in battles in the first place, even in the games, we wouldn't have that mess that people are complaining about.). And BTW, she didn't look like a perfectly breeded Pokémon. May and Serena are more that considering they were given a large chest despite only being 10 years old, which makes them warped. At least Misty actually LOOKED her age.

You know, you're reminding me a lot of Cybercubed, PDL, and the like with your false statements about Misty, not to mention your complaints about Johto (and for the record, Hoenn was more fillerish, considering Ash never even improved at all, just stayed at the same rank as he had in Johto. Why even bother watching AG when you already know he's not even going to improve at all. Even Best Wishes, for being the absolute worst turnout in the entire anime, at least had us know where he stood compared to before). You don't like her, fine, it's your business of who you like or don't like, but don't lie about her, because she did FAR more than nothing. If what she did was "nothing," then Ash did "nothing" as well, less than nothing in fact. Actually, Misty actually HAD more of a defined goal than Ash did (we at least know she needed to bond with Water Pokémon, research them, capture them, and fight in Water Pokémon tournaments. Until DP, literally the only thing we knew about Ash's goal of becoming a Pokémon Master was that it involved challenging Gyms, and it's not even a guarantee that winning leagues will ever grant the rank of Pokémon Master, especially when he won the Orange League yet still continued his journey despite that). Even though I do hate May and Dawn with a passion, I certainly don't state that they do "nothing." I wouldn't even say Brock did nothing, and that's the character who came the closest to actually NOT doing much on the main cast.

 

[Lizardo]

^And in case you've forgotten, I actually DID read up on plot summaries, statements on TVTropes, episode reviews, which is much of the same thing. And I've seen bad historians BTW, so don't think I don't know about any historians who are an insult to historical study. At least it's actually something rather than simply complaining about something I haven't even heard about, so at least be glad I took some effort in trying to communicate about the series despite not watching it, including keeping myself informed.

You haven't keep yourself well informed, because almost every statement you made about DP in the other thread was either wrong or could easily have been explained by watching the episode in question. And that wouldn't even be so bad, but instead of watching DP so you can critique it better, you rip-off the opinions of other people. Critics aren't supposed to do that. Historians aren't supposed to do that. Your mindset is an insult to both.

I've read dozens of books written by historians and one of the big things emphasized in the best ones are primary sources, material and words spoken by the people who were actually there. Not the opinions of other historians.

Also, and I can't believe this has to be said, discussing and criticizing a Japanese children's anime is not the same thing as studying history.

Oh, and for the record, just so you're aware, TVTropes considered Paul to be very abusive and that his role in the moral of differing training styles actually was broken as a result, labeling him such things as a Jerk-Sue, a Scrappy, a Creator's Pet, and also mentioning that his actions were very abusive, and the only reason why Ash wasn't in the right to call him out on it was precisely because of a forced Aesop:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CluelessAesop

"Pokémon introduced the character of Paul as Ash's main rival during the seasons set in Sinnoh. Paul and Ash had frequent disagreements, only to have other characters lecture Ash about how they should try to overlook their differences, because everyone is different and has their own ways of doing things which should be respected. Paul, however, was extremely aggressive without provocation and was also particularly cruel to his Pokemon, crueler than most of the clear-cut villains were; were it not for the forced Aesop Ash would have every right to judge him."

Heck, you actually can find out more on how Paul is loathed on YMMV/Pokémon Anime as well.

For the love of... this is why I've come to dislike TVTropes. It's bred a new class of people on the Internet who believe they can win debates by mindlessly tossing tropes at people instead of thinking up their own arguments.

The reason TVTropes has a YMMV page in the first place is because people on there recognize that comments like the one you just posted are not authoritative statements on the quality of the work. They're opinions, and that's all they'll ever be. Reading and taking other people's opinions, regardless of whether or not they're the comments of some anonymous poster on TVTropes or Takeshi Shudo, is not a good substitute for watching the damn show and basing your own thoughts on that.

Seriously, I'm telling you for your own good, don't do this. Good historians wouldn't take your findings seriously if all you had to show to support them were quotes from other historians. People honestly looking for good criticism of television or movies aren't going to take your opinions seriously if you've never watched the whole thing, and made it all up from opinions taken from others.

If your opinion is to be worth anything at all, it needs to come from your own thoughts on the material. And that can only come from watching it in the first place - all of it. If you want to criticize anything properly, you have to demonstrate that you're capable of your own, independent critique based on stuff supported by the show, and not from other fans.

Since you stated Paul was one of the best rivals and showed differing circumstances (which really as it was just indicated moral relativity than an actual difference in styles) in past statements, I figured I should get you more informed.

My opinions on Shinji are more informed than yours, because I actually watched DP and based my thoughts on the material I had access to (i.e. the actual show) rather than the opinions of others. I'm capable of original thought and analysis, no matter how flawed they may or may not be, and you haven't demonstrated the ability to do either.

By your own admission, very few - if any - of your opinions on Pocket Monsters post-OS are actually yours. Most are just lifted from someone else, and I honestly believe that they're selectively chosen because you can't get over the fact that OS ended and move on from the anime like anyone else would. If you wanted, I could give you the quotes and episodes that influence my thinking on Shinji as a character and his rivalry with Satoshi. You couldn't do that, because you've only watched fifteen episodes or so of DP and then read what other people had to say. So please, don't try to be cute. You're not that smart.

And, again, a good historian would base his or her opinions off their analysis of primary sources and material, not the conclusions other historians have made. A good critic would base their analysis and critique of a show off their experiences of watching the actual show, not what other critics have to say about it. You haven't demonstrated the ability to do either of these things. Therefore, your thoughts and opinions on DP - or the rest of the post-OS anime, for that matter - are worthless.

 

[Garchomp]

At least with Kanto, Ash was just starting out, and besides which, the gym leaders actually WERE treated as being skilled. Johto also still treated the Gym Leaders as being skilled (and for the record, Ash didn't rely on an entirely rookie team barring Pikachu in Johto either, unlike with AG, DP, or BW. I definitely know that Falkner and Claire were beaten with Charizard, for example. And Ash did take some tries to beat the Gym Leaders with his rookie team, like with Whitney). The same can't be said with AG/Hoenn (yes, there were some exceptions, like with Brawley and to some degree Roxanne. But most of them actually WERE pushed over, even Norman, who really only won so they would have an excuse to force Ash to go down the gym path of the games). DP at least initially tried to actually pose a challenge to Ash's rookie team before it ultimately fell apart (and for the record, no, Team Rocket interrupting matches does NOT count towards showing either trainer's skills against the other as it's rendered inconclusive).

I've actually seen May and Dawn in action, so I actually do have enough to hate them. That's also why I don't complain about whether Iris or Serena are of the Hina stereotype or not, since I haven't seen them in action.

Does having a rookie team even matter? Barring pikachu, all his pokemon were new to him for the region anyway; you don't just look at whether they've evolved or not, as even in OS, it was said that pokemon don't have to evolve to be strong. I'm not sure if you've watched gym battles from AG or BW before, but barring two or three, they all looked closer than what the bulbapedia summary would tell you, as they pretty much always are.

You've seen all of 9-10% of Dawn and god knows how much of May, but that's still such a small sample size. Characters change throughout the series, and that's what makes them interesting. You've seen the entirety of Misty, so you know how complex of a character she is and how she changed from the first episode to her last. You haven't seen the others, so you don't know the characters and how they've changed throughout the series. Reading summaries is one of the biggest disservices you can do for them because you haven't seen them when they're lively, happy, struggling, etc. If you've watched 10% and don't like that 10%, you're reading the summaries with 10% in mind, so of course you won't like them if you haven't seen them change or interact. This is why people get annoyed at you when you try to talk about the show in a meaningful sense like you've seen the show, because they've seen the show and not just read plot summaries. You're exactly like a person who tries to talk with a group of friends about a movie that they've all seen but you've only read the wikipedia summary; you don't care about the characters, because you haven't seen them developing on screen.

This isn't me telling you you can't have an opinion, this is me telling you that your opinion on what you haven't watched is really, really weak, and it looks really silly when I see posts from you commenting about the show, AFTER you've stated you read plot summaries, because lets be clear: the overall plot is redundant, but the characters are what makes the show enjoyable still. Trying to talk passionate about something you haven't seen leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I can't take it seriously.

Actually, according to DBZ Fan at least (and he's watched through all of Johto, so he'd know), only 30% actually qualified as filler.

You're really going by what someone else says for your stat? You've seen Johto, so you should be able to determine for yourself what you think is filler or not. Filler generally being non-gym battles, non-captures, non-league battles, non-rival battles, and episodes that don't advance the main plot or characters. Johto is roughly 150 episodes long, so there is no way the number of true "fillers" should be under 50%.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Does having a rookie team even matter? Barring pikachu, all his pokemon were new to him for the region anyway; you don't just look at whether they've evolved or not, as even in OS, it was said that pokemon don't have to evolve to be strong. I'm not sure if you've watched gym battles from AG or BW before, but barring two or three, they all looked closer than what the bulbapedia summary would tell you, as they pretty much always are.

Yeah except in AG the Gym Leaders, barring Roxanne and Brawley (and Roxanne's mostly because Pikachu, an actual vet, beat her) were pretty much creamed by rookies far too easily (I think Brawley's the only one of the Hoenn Gym Leaders to actually require multiple tries [Norman doesn't count, as that was just an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games]). At least DP actually tried to do a bit better, although ultimately it was still incomplete due to the later gym battles relying more on Team Rocket interrupting than having Ash lose against the Gym Leader with his rookie team. The BW basically took what AG did and made it worse. At this rate, only XY can be considered relatively decent regarding Gym Leaders, considering Ash at least loses once and has to rematch them most of the time, and even the two he did win on the first try actually had a justified reason.

You've seen all of 9-10% of Dawn and god knows how much of May, but that's still such a small sample size. Characters change throughout the series, and that's what makes them interesting. You've seen the entirety of Misty, so you know how complex of a character she is and how she changed from the first episode to her last. You haven't seen the others, so you don't know the characters and how they've changed throughout the series. Reading summaries is one of the biggest disservices you can do for them because you haven't seen them when they're lively, happy, struggling, etc. If you've watched 10% and don't like that 10%, you're reading the summaries with 10% in mind, so of course you won't like them if you haven't seen them change or interact. This is why people get annoyed at you when you try to talk about the show in a meaningful sense like you've seen the show, because they've seen the show and not just read plot summaries. You're exactly like a person who tries to talk with a group of friends about a movie that they've all seen but you've only read the wikipedia summary; you don't care about the characters, because you haven't seen them developing on screen.

Watching an episode or a movie is not going to give a complete picture, unfortunately. After all, most viewers wouldn't have guessed the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi were Vietcong soldier analogues or that the Battle of Endor was a love song to that evil group in Return of the Jedi had George Lucas not opened his trap about it. It's better to read summaries as they give a complete picture, that as well as behind the scenes materials. And BTW, going by that definition, there shouldn't even BE a historian job precisely BECAUSE they have no right to talk about events they weren't personally a part of, especially points they weren't even ALIVE at the time.

This isn't me telling you you can't have an opinion, this is me telling you that your opinion on what you haven't watched is really, really weak, and it looks really silly when I see posts from you commenting about the show, AFTER you've stated you read plot summaries, because lets be clear: the overall plot is redundant, but the characters are what makes the show enjoyable still. Trying to talk passionate about something you haven't seen leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I can't take it seriously.

I've seen Dawn and May in action. Notice how I don't form an opinion on Iris and Serena in any way like whether I hate or like them. That's because I don't see them in action at all. And BTW, one of the biggest reasons I hated May and her characterization: the Manaphy Movie, was actually very LATE into her run. I might as well point out that I also hated the fact that she cried and got severe depression after she lost the Kanto Grand Festival. Ash never cried when he lost the Silver Conference under a similar situation, and in fact, it's actually making her into a sore loser by doing that. I also hated the fact that she didn't seem even remotely sad about leaving Ash and co, since it made her look like an ungrateful jerk.

You're really going by what someone else says for your stat? You've seen Johto, so you should be able to determine for yourself what you think is filler or not. Filler generally being non-gym battles, non-captures, non-league battles, non-rival battles, and episodes that don't advance the main plot or characters. Johto is roughly 150 episodes long, so there is no way the number of true "fillers" should be under 50%.

Yeah, and filler also excludes character development, ie revealing history of characters, seeing how characters develop over time, even if it's just for that one episode, and participating in tournaments, not to mention actually calling back to said events in the future.

Only the mid point of Johto can genuinely be classified as filler, and even that was exaggerated anyways.

Besides, by that logic, AG itself is 100% filler, precisely because Ash stays at the exact same rank he did in Johto, the Battle Frontier is treated like a joke, and May's contest goal isn't even treated as that important considering they replaced her with another girl to do the exact same goal.

 

[twillight]

^And in case you've forgotten, I actually DID read up on plot summaries, statements on TVTropes, episode reviews, which is much of the same thing.

Nope, they are not.