Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.
Maybe if I never even looked a summary or ANYTHING about the series at all (and I mean literally ANYTHING), you and everyone else would have a point for calling me out, but I DID do research into it.
@Lizardo: Yes, it's on the YMMV trope, but the Scrappy is meant for characters who are considered wildly unpopular, meaning more than 50% of the audience or, well, pretty much everyone hates the character. It's not meant for individual opinions (in fact, I'm not so sure why it's even in YMMV since that generally implies individual opinions which are nihilistic in the end anyhow). Of course, there are varying ways, some may be hated universally, some may be hated in their own country yet beloved in a foreign country, others may be vice versa, but either way, it's a large segment that hates a character, large enough to qualify as a majority (over 50% in other words).
Maybe if I never even looked a summary or ANYTHING about the series at all (and I mean literally ANYTHING), you and everyone else would have a point for calling me out, but I DID do research into it.
Look, you might have researched, but you still don't have the point. Your pre-filtered research from people who either did not watch the show, or were payed to be biassed is in conflict with the actual show's content, which many times not even the creators are aware what they made (because they THINK they left in the relevant parts and can keep in mind all the details, something only an actual dedicated viewer can do).
What you do - I have no better comparsion - is like someone talking about the Bible after reading a library of theological works, while never even seen an actual Bible. If they'd ever open it people would stop talking such nonsense like trinity and "god is love".
For example reviews and stuff say Alain from the Mega Evolution Specials is in the 17th movie. He isn't. Same reviews say barbaracle does not appear in the 17th movie while it does.
These might look minor details, but things tend to escalate quickly in reviews, and they also add up. Nothing can compete with the original source. Like for "Facing thegrand design"a reviewer say in the dub Ash says he wants to meet "more" space-mons. This is entirely false, the dub does not correct this mistake, leaving XY saying something equal with when Unova said Ashis still 10.
Look, you might have researched, but you still don't have the point. Your pre-filtered research from people who either did not watch the show, or were payed to be biassed is in conflict with the actual show's content, which many times not even the creators are aware what they made (because they THINK they left in the relevant parts and can keep in mind all the details, something only an actual dedicated viewer can do).
What you do - I have no better comparsion - is like someone talking about the Bible after reading a library of theological works, while never even seen an actual Bible. If they'd ever open it people would stop talking such nonsense like trinity and "god is love".
For example reviews and stuff say Alain from the Mega Evolution Specials is in the 17th movie. He isn't. Same reviews say barbaracle does not appear in the 17th movie while it does.
These might look minor details, but things tend to escalate quickly in reviews, and they also add up. Nothing can compete with the original source. Like for "Facing thegrand design"a reviewer say in the dub Ash says he wants to meet "more" space-mons. This is entirely false, the dub does not correct this mistake, leaving XY saying something equal with when Unova said Ashis still 10.
Actually, Word of God, production notes, and all of that beat original source daily. And BTW, the reviews on SPPf feature people who have actually WATCHED the episodes and Bulbapedia also features plot summaries, which, you know, require the person to have actually WATCHED the episode beforehand to have written it? That's how I keep myself at an edge on these things. I also look at episode pictures as well, not to mention Dogasu's episode comparisons. It's all of these that have allowed me to know that, for example, Hoenn ended up a dud due to Ash basically ending up in Top 8 again, after he got the position in Johto. Think about it, if I were not in any position to argue about an AG episode, I wouldn't even be able to know what rank he got in Hoenn.
Maybe if I never even looked a summary or ANYTHING about the series at all (and I mean literally ANYTHING), you and everyone else would have a point for calling me out, but I DID do research into it.
No, see people have a point in calling you out because your "research" (FYI - reading TVTropes, Bulbapedia, and Wikipedia is not the kind of research anyone in their right mind would suggest) has left you with opinions that are at best incomplete and lacking proper context and, at worst, are utterly inaccurate. You can't properly argue the quality of the anime without watching it, it's that simple. Believe me, I remember your posts on DP from the other thread. It became increasingly clear you didn't know much about it.
If you really want to discuss the anime post-OS, do yourself a favor - quit taking the opinions of other people (e.g. DBZ Fan, Famon, Bulbapedia, some poster on TVTropes or Serebii, etc.) for your own, watch the other anime shows, give them a fair chance, evaluate them for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. And then you can refer back to Bulbapedia, or other people's critiques, just to add more context to your opinions. That's what proper critique is.
@Lizardo: Yes, it's on the YMMV trope, but the Scrappy is meant for characters who are considered wildly unpopular, meaning more than 50% of the audience or, well, pretty much everyone hates the character. It's not meant for individual opinions (in fact, I'm not so sure why it's even in YMMV since that generally implies individual opinions which are nihilistic in the end anyhow). Of course, there are varying ways, some may be hated universally, some may be hated in their own country yet beloved in a foreign country, others may be vice versa, but either way, it's a large segment that hates a character, large enough to qualify as a majority (over 50% in other words).
I know what a Scrappy is and what it means to be called one. But if something is put on the YMMV (i.e. Your Mileage May Vary) page, it's TVTropes' own admission that this statement isn't considered fact and is, in fact, highly subjective. Reading TVTropes is not proper research. People who post there are accountable to nothing and this is even stated on the homepage.
Also - don't rely on TVTropes to provide concrete information for you, the site - by its own admission - isn't trying to provide an authoritative statement on anything. What you quoted about Shinji is a poster's own opinion, one that I disagree with entirely and is contradicted in most cases by actual evidence from DP itself. You need to have your own opinions, backed up with evidence from the show, in order to discuss a television show properly.
Seriously, I've been on boards where these kinds of "arguments" are considered trolling.
Yeah except in AG the Gym Leaders, barring Roxanne and Brawley (and Roxanne's mostly because Pikachu, an actual vet, beat her) were pretty much creamed by rookies far too easily (I think Brawley's the only one of the Hoenn Gym Leaders to actually require multiple tries [Norman doesn't count, as that was just an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games]). At least DP actually tried to do a bit better, although ultimately it was still incomplete due to the later gym battles relying more on Team Rocket interrupting than having Ash lose against the Gym Leader with his rookie team. The BW basically took what AG did and made it worse. At this rate, only XY can be considered relatively decent regarding Gym Leaders, considering Ash at least loses once and has to rematch them most of the time, and even the two he did win on the first try actually had a justified reason.
What qualifies as a rookie pokemon for you? I mean, if you're going by NFE, a fresh totodile, chikorita, and cyndaquil say hello. If you've read summaries for XY, he's truly only lost in a gym situation once, and it was the first one.
Watching an episode or a movie is not going to give a complete picture, unfortunately. After all, most viewers wouldn't have guessed the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi were Vietcong soldier analogues or that the Battle of Endor was a love song to that evil group in Return of the Jedi had George Lucas not opened his trap about it. It's better to read summaries as they give a complete picture, that as well as behind the scenes materials.
You are correct an episode or movie doesn't give the whole picture. Summaries are good for after you watch, because you watch characters and any questions you have would be cleared up after. Let us take your Ewok reference: you can read about them and see they're apparently modeled after Vietcong soldiers; that's great and all, but so what? If you didn't watch the movie and only read the summaries, they're just Ewoks to you. You don't see how fun they were and what kind of interactions they had with the main characters.
I've seen Dawn and May in action. Notice how I don't form an opinion on Iris and Serena in any way like whether I hate or like them. That's because I don't see them in action at all. And BTW, one of the biggest reasons I hated May and her characterization: the Manaphy Movie, was actually very LATE into her run. I might as well point out that I also hated the fact that she cried and got severe depression after she lost the Kanto Grand Festival. Ash never cried when he lost the Silver Conference under a similar situation, and in fact, it's actually making her into a sore loser by doing that. I also hated the fact that she didn't seem even remotely sad about leaving Ash and co, since it made her look like an ungrateful jerk.
You've barely scratched the surface of Dawn at 9-10%. You've formed an opinion on them, but not a strong one. So you hated May because the Manaphy movie was late into AG's run? What logic is that? I'm especially confused about what I've bolded... You hate that she had human emotion after coming short of the grand festival, but you hated her for not getting emotional in the end? And somehow that makes her an ungrateful jerk? Brock didn't cry when he left Ash at the end of DP, so what does it make him? If you've read XY's summaries, Serena lost her first showcase, cried, and cut her hair, so would that make you hate her too? Honestly, the "logic" I'm seeing isn't consistent.
Yeah, and filler also excludes character development, ie revealing history of characters, seeing how characters develop over time, even if it's just for that one episode, and participating in tournaments, not to mention actually calling back to said events in the future.
Besides, by that logic, AG itself is 100% filler, precisely because Ash stays at the exact same rank he did in Johto, the Battle Frontier is treated like a joke, and May's contest goal isn't even treated as that important considering they replaced her with another girl to do the exact same goal.
Alright - this one of those topics that causes a fan war, I see.
Old vs New isn't really a new topic in Pokemon Anime. I'm fond of the early seasons, because they remind me of my childhood. I've grown up since then, I probably don't find the new seasons very appealing right now. I watched up to Black & White, and I noticed they improved some stuff (animation, for example), but they dropped some concepts that the show used to rely on.
I believe that regardless of my personal taste in anime, it's really hard to let a promotional anime such as Pokemon to continue for so many years without changing. We can go for example to Yugioh, when they decided to go for spin-offs rather than continuing the original story.
On way or the other, the show changes depending on what prodceures are waiting from it, personally, it doesn't really captivate me, yet I must confess some of the new things are nice. Is it stupid to reset everything after a season? Well, yes, but I don't think they have too many options at this point.
What qualifies as a rookie pokemon for you? I mean, if you're going by NFE, a fresh totodile, chikorita, and cyndaquil say hello. If you've read summaries for XY, he's truly only lost in a gym situation once, and it was the first one.
Actually, he lost against Korrina and Ramos as well. Or have you forgotten about how he fought them when he first met them, and he lost in those two instances? And if Gardenia counted as a gym loss despite not even being at the gym at the time, they do as well.
And as far as what qualifies as a rookie Pokémon, it's basically a Pokémon that doesn't have a region under it's belt yet. After it goes through at LEAST one league, THEN it can qualify as a veteran. When rookie Pokémon like most of Ash's AG team (and I might as well point out: Unlike in Johto, Ash doesn't even use any of his veterans besides Pikachu, so it's more noticeable there since in Johto he did use Charizard in at least two of his Gym Battles) managed to wipe the floor with most of Hoenn's GLs (barring Roxanne and Brawley, I mean) similar to how Caterpie tore Team Rocket a new one despite clearly being at a disadvantage in more ways than one in the third episode of the entire series, yes, the Gym Leaders of Hoenn at the very least were terrible. To some extent the DP gym leaders, while slightly better, were not quite good either. It initially started to show promise with Roarke and Gardenia, plus his barely tying with Maylene, but after that it caved. And BW, at least from what I've heard, was about as bad as Hoenn if not even worse. Had it been me writing the show, I'd make sure that if Ash is using rookies against Gym Leaders, he loses once, and then rematches them and wins after deducing their strategy, like with the Lt. Surge battle (if he's using veterans, then he curb-stomps them. Sure, it's not quite as fun, but it's at least realistic.). And I want to make something else clear, by "lost," I mean a clear loss on Ash's part, not the match being postponed due to an attack from Team Rocket for example. We've gotten that with Viola, Korrina, and Ramos (and yes, the latter two do count. If Gardenia counts as a gym loss, they do as well), and even with Grant and Clemont, the only two GLs so far to actually lose on the first try, their losses actually were justified.
You are correct an episode or movie doesn't give the whole picture. Summaries are good for after you watch, because you watch characters and any questions you have would be cleared up after. Let us take your Ewok reference: you can read about them and see they're apparently modeled after Vietcong soldiers; that's great and all, but so what? If you didn't watch the movie and only read the summaries, they're just Ewoks to you. You don't see how fun they were and what kind of interactions they had with the main characters.
Glad we agree here, at least regarding watching those things not giving the whole picture, that's why I prefer relying on summaries and production notes, because those are things that truly paint what a film is like or an episode.
You've barely scratched the surface of Dawn at 9-10%. You've formed an opinion on them, but not a strong one. So you hated May because the Manaphy movie was late into AG's run? What logic is that? I'm especially confused about what I've bolded... You hate that she had human emotion after coming short of the grand festival, but you hated her for not getting emotional in the end? And somehow that makes her an ungrateful jerk? Brock didn't cry when he left Ash at the end of DP, so what does it make him? If you've read XY's summaries, Serena lost her first showcase, cried, and cut her hair, so would that make you hate her too? Honestly, the "logic" I'm seeing isn't consistent.
It has nothing to do with human emotions. It's whether there's a time and a place for reacting with said emotions. When you lose in your First Grand festival/Pokémon League, or you do much worse than before, it's actually natural to cry when you lose, and perfectly alright to do so. That's also why I never complained about Dawn's crying when she lost her first Pokémon Contest, because it's expected that she would cry. However, the Kanto Grand Festival was not only her second Grand Festival, but she actually did BETTER than before, yet she still cried out of devastation. THAT'S when it's NOT okay to cry, and in fact, society looks DOWN upon that. If, somehow, losing when you've done better and especially when it isn't your first time is truly a natural human reaction, then I guess Ash must have been completely inhuman and unnatural because I certainly don't recall him ever crying when he lost to Harrison in the Silver Conference, and under similar circumstances to how May lost (increased in rank, beating long-time rival, then losing to another person, and then being inspired to go to another region at least in part by that loss), and I watched that episode on that Cartoon Network marathon back when DP was to debut and I have a near-eidetic memory. Besides, I was taught it was a bad idea to cry when losing with Super Mario Kart, when the characters cried there, and my mom and dad told me that's not how people act.
And as for her not being sad at all in regards to leaving Ash and co. for Johto, considering she spent the entire AG series befriending them, it would be more natural to have her be sad, or at the very least hesitant to leave her friends and brother behind. Instead, she seemed way too eager to go to Johto, so it came across as her not even caring about her friends at all. I know that was actually a complaint about her departure episode in the SPPf review thread for the episode in question, and it wasn't just directed to her: All the characters were subject to that complaint (the closest character to actually show some degree of hesitance was Max).
Yeah, I do. However, other than advancing goals, none of the girls after May (and yes, I'll admit she at least got some development in the sense that she stopped hating Pokémon. It may not have been much compared to the development Misty got, but it's still more than Dawn, Iris, or Serena) actually had much development. Sure, there's some reference to history there, but not much.
Ah, let's see, he stayed at exactly the same rank in Hoenn as he did in Johto, meaning he didn't truly have a meaningful, long-lasting lesson or any real impact on his goal as a result (after all, in order for the journey to mean something, you need to actually improve, and the only way to do that is to increase in rank. And even if the person does worse than before, it at least shows where exactly they stand compared to before). That, alongside the fact that the Battle Frontier completion ultimately meant absolutely nothing when Ash can't breeze through the Sinnoh gyms with just Pikachu, not to mention lose to a rookie Ursaring, AND the fact that they gave May's replacement the exact same goal as before, becoming World's Top Coordinator, shows just how meaningless AG truly was in the grand scheme of things.
Let me put it another way: Kanto at least was his first region, so there's literally nothing it could compare to before it. Johto had him improving in rank compared to Kanto. Sinnoh had him actually advance in rank compared to Johto/Hoenn. Even Unova, which was the worst turnout ever, at least had Ash actually get a different rank than the region immediately prior, even if that different rank was in reverse (ie, going from Top 4 down to Top 8). Hoenn is the only region so far where his ranking was literally no different than the region before it (Johto in this case). Those actually WERE meaningful, due to actually showing a change in rank (or in the case of Kanto, automatically qualifies due to being his first league) while Hoenn wasn't meaningful at all precisely because he didn't change from where he was before at all. Why bother watching AG at all, when you know he's going to remain at the same rank as Johto in the end? It's pointless. That's the logic I'm getting at. Johto and Sinnoh are two regions where watching through the long stretch actually WAS worth it regarding the results. Now, if Ash managed to get Top 4 in Hoenn, THEN we're getting somewhere in regards to it actually having meaning.
This whole new vs old anime argument is just ridiculous. Everyone has their own opinions. Some people like the older series more and others like the newer series more, some people will say the anime was more better in the past and others say it's just getting better. Some people like one series over the other.
For me I personally like the Original Series mainly the Kanto Season and the entire D&P Series the most. With my least favorite series being the Best Wish Series.
Some people will say the Anime sucks now while others will say it doesn't. Honestly who cares which series or characters is better and if the anime is getting better or not, everyone has their own opinions. Pointless argument IMO.
Problem with you guys isnt really a problem. 90% of you guys on here are an old school and were there when the show was being released. Everyone has their own opinions which is fine. But there's a difference of having opinion and saying what is the best. My favorite TV show ever is boy meets world. But I know that's not the best TV show ever. Season one will go down as the GOAT in Pokémon. (greatest of all time) The music, misty and Brock, storylines, classic feeling, where it all started). There's a reason why after Misty left and Brock and those three weren't together anymore that ratings fell drastically. The show turn into a joke when they got rid of the original voice actors. If it wasn't for their viewing in Japan the show would be canceled
I watched pokemon anime ever since 1998 being with it both in older and modern days(cant believe more than 18 years passed)and anime went both through its ups and downs.
But when i compare pokemon from 15 or 10 years ago to nowadays,i cant help but notice how early series like Kanto or OI(Johto and Hoenn in some parts) had more comedy implemented with humor and interesting interactions between characters. Misty has big merits for this aswell,who had great chemistry with others ,funny pokemon and interesting things going for her(like her goal of becoming water pokemon master and accompished water expert reaching E4 level, development of deeper feelings for others like Ash, fear of being left out being viewed as underdog in family etc))bringing some spark which was lost once she left.
Pokemon series had some sort of originality with wacky plots and less sticking with games which we dont get anymore.
Nowdays you wont see anymore whole anime only sagas like Orange Islands,and anime exclusive characters being favored over game ones.
Its pretty obvious how as time passes writers are using rehashes of older plots which happened already before counting on assumption how new viewers dont know about past events(which isnt completely true),causing lack of creativity.
Its kinda obvious how pokemon anime in nutshell became much more commercialized feeling personally how it lost its identity and destination to follow.
INitially i had impression how this anime was supposed to promote adventure aspect and excitement of discovering new world.
How it was meant to be anime where we have stable main cast which is allowed to live up to their full potential, instead of getting rid of everything and everyone who defined this show, Ash character and gave actual meaning to story. With likes of Misty, Brock, May, Dawn, Tracey etc. Just about everyone being discarded with unfinished stories, unsolved feelings and problems like they never were there or meant anything.
Where continuity is strong keeping ties to past generations giving look in Ash past, all those people and missions supposing to leave effect on him.
Where we have balanced story which dont go through resets but gradually improves and evolves taking its character further with Ash winning league and breaking new steps in becoming pokemon master, maintains contact with previous important people in his life as they through updates and follow ups grow stronger and reach desired destinations too through sequel of what was established before .
Soiling ground for more exciting battles, more enticing character development, growth of relationship between Ash and others and sense of things moving forward. With past experiences, flaws and develop of new abilities taking characters somewhere in end. With his effort and hard work actually paying of.
But that obviously isnt the case for Pokemon.
And probably most frustrating and intellectually insulting aspect of the show is that it is predicated on assumptions. How no one cares, how viewers are going to acceot whatever producers do with pokemon series as long they get their good portion of flashy battles and new pokemon to look at. Having apparently such low standards, that whatever writers serve to them theyll just go with flow and accept it.
Without taking in account how such move just alienate its aidiemce not giving them any reason to remain loyal toward show, extend its influence on wider group demographic with teenagers and aduts remaining interested in it feeling like their time investment in following pokemon series wasnt pointless with story, characters and develpment going somewhere.
Which cannot happen if characters like Ash stagnate, story undergo heavy resets, older characters from their childhood who only seemingly exist in universe never get follow up, update and have their legacy preserved remaining relevant to story. Along with journey lacking originality, fresh plot twists, variety and different kind of obstacles and challenges for protagonists to overcme. Making things more unpredictable.
Reflecting thus on this this anime reputation and credibilliy among viewers losing its popularity more and more over time.
Its not that pokemon is terrible show when i look at it separately saga by saga and many things did improved. Like better battles, signs of more coherent character development and stiry, better adaptation of some of game materials, animation of course etc.
But when i look at pokemon as ensemble it declined in continuity, creativity when making plots with writers not anymore having custom to deviate from games that much and use their own imagination, humor and more variety in interaction between characters or destination in which characters and story was supposed to be taken having ending in sight building up on narrative.
- I don't think the original trio(Brock, Ash, Misty) is the end all, be all of the anime. I don't discount anything they've brought to the table, but there are also other characters that have come on board that have brought other things to the table as well. Tbh, I probably wouldn't have continued watching if the original trio went past season 5, mostly because they started getting tired during Johto. It's always nice to get new faces that bring interesting group dynamics, and AG(Hoenn) really gave the characters left a breath of fresh air. Also, I got tired of Brock during DP, so I can't imagine having him on the series forever, and if you throw Misty into the mix, then it would be truly repetitive.
To be honest if original trio was never disbanded i wouldn't mind in slightest if writers brought new interesting twist for their stories and characters taking them in creative directions (One Piece has same cast for over 500 episodes and no one is boring, even when they start to get tiring writers unexpectedly add new twist to their story and characterization quickly becoming fun again developing forward).
Naruto kept same characters, Fairy Tail, Dragon ball and many others. Or at least maintain ther existence in anime through recurring type of tole getting updates, and sequels being fleshed out on more meaningful level.
Most people just went with flow and took things as they hapened being inconceivable for them to even imagine what would be of pokemon series if Misty wasnt replaced?
Explanation:
Spoiler:
For example if she stayed in Hoenn, we could see instead of Ash Misty taking older big sister role to May helping her to catch ropes as trainer and add more variety to character interactions. Building on endearing friendship and strong bond between this 2.
We could see writers breaking new fields with water master career introducing follow up from Whirl Cup, whole lore about title Alpha Omega of water pokemon, mythic water pendants and sea heroes clearing up what other tournaments she needs to enter and win to achieve dreams.
Misty could've played big role in Team Aqua disband and legendary pokemon Kyogre making sense due to being avid water lover and misuse of such specie would surely cause wrath and despise from her side. While fulfiling one of side dreams of meeting legendary water pokemon learning how to use them to full potential(something her manga counterepart did in pokemon adventures with Suicune).
There were so many new water pokemon to catch adding new fresh outlook to her team. Like Buizel, Finneon, Gastrodon, Bibarel and many others like Milotic, Swanna, Jellicent, Seismitoad giving her immunity to electric because of ground characteristics etc. Open ground for quality development like Surskit which as half bug would cause her to confront possible trauma from past which resulted in irrational hatred toward bugs.
Meet all kind of pokemon type experts like Sootopolis gym leader Juan, Crasher Wake, Brawley(surfer guy), Marlon or especally Wallace in Sinnoh who is possibly best water trainer in world and water master basically conquering league by just using water pokemon.
Cover Togekiss story through her Togetic. etc.
As series progressed there were introduced all kind of subplots like mega evolution of Misty pokemon(allowing her to learn how to bring full power of them on surface), E4 members like currently Siebold who is elite water trainer(first one ever introduced in games)basing whole arc around Misty possibly becoming his apprentice maing big step forward in reaching ultimate destination.
Find out possibly about her lost parents if writers felt need to develop her on more profound level etc.
Even 9th movie about Manaphy(prince of sea) offered so much potential to develop her character more.
What im trying to say is how even if Misty stayed we could get same or potentially higher quality of Hoenn, Sunnoh etc series her presence, development and involvement in anime journey could deliver. Sure it could be opposite runing anime(well haters often like to convince themselves in thinking that) as well,
But in reality we cannot know how much anime would change if hypothetically original trio wasnt disbanded and whether writers would positively surporise us or not. Or what would be delivered to story differently than what was presented to us instead.
I hate people crying over Misty and Brock, two undeveloped, misfigured, overused character. The real problem is, each and every companion, professor, andanyone else Ash meets disappears into thin air after departing.
Your kinda contradicting yourself,. If they were underdeveloped that means writers didnt fleshed them out as much as they could had, their stories and dreams werent progressed enough being left unfinished hence meaning how they had obviously room to do much more(although no mater what you say, Misty received more character development in personality, emotional aspect than most other travel companions) .
Thats exact opposite of characters which are overused and gain more exposition than necessary in reality.
Not to menton if problem is that past characters get abandoned and erased from existence, than you can surely understand why in Brock or especially Misty case who wasnt seen ever since 2005, people want them back.
Missing their personalities, pokemon, wanting to see follow up and how much they changed, get more development tying up loose ends in their stories and play some relevance in anime again enriching on dynamic and atmosphere through their presence. Making continuity stronger, adding more depth to story and variety to journey as whole.
Because while this may be shocking to you, there are people who recognized appeal and importance behind Brock and Misty character appreciating them.
Johto was officially 80% filler. you can't claim progress there.
And Misty... No real goal, no interaction, no personality. What did she do? She claimed she wants water mons, but never catched one. For entire seasons shejust went around holding Togepi, than she switched on to grab Brock by the ear. Literally this was the only thing Misty ever did. And her look looked like a perfectly breeded pokemon (aka. ugly as heck). I'mso glad they got rid of her. Should have done it after Indigo League!
From wherever your pulling out 80%, its completely wrong. There exist common misconception how half or more than half of Johto are fillers. Fandom just one day decided this trying to pass it of as "fact", not realizing its their opinion and something highly debatable when determining what can be conidered as relevant or irrelevant episode.
Johto had 157 episodes. When we exclude each and every episode there containing character development for Ash,Misty or Brock,focus on their goals, new pokemon capture or evolution, episodes dealing with TR organization, recurring characters returning(like Gary,Casey,Sakura,Duplica or prof.Oak)etc.
Leave us with 65 or so episodes where nothing notable happened aside from introducing new pokemon and helping character of day about some problem.
Needless to say forming negative foretoken for every episode which is "filler"(fanmade term)is ridiculous.
Because such episodes often explored more on character personalities making viewer understand protagonists better, it often served as bedstead for future development giving viewer chance to get whole picture of his history and allowed to build up on friendship between characters.
Having series in pokemon case whichg are just centered around gym battles, episodes about pokemon captures and covering villain plot would be disaster turning anime into game, beng zone where any artiatic liverty and creativity is beyond dead. Relaxing non obligatory nature of content in some episodes based on humor and lighthearted side adventures often adds extra appeal to TV series balancing things out preventing viewers from ending tired with plot related episodes, it often get us familiar more with main heroes of some story and provides vibe of anime feeling adventurous where friends explore world making it more human like and easier to relate to.
Now about Misty:
-You do realize she hads more pokemon than any other traveling companion(10 in total)?
Misty caught or acquired on her travels through Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto and afterwards in Chronicles Horsea, Togepi , Psyduck, Poliwag who evolved in Politoad, Corsola, Gyarados, Luvdisc and Azurill. In addition to already having Staryu, Goldeen and Starmie.
Misty goal was more defined than Ash poke master chasing. She wanted to become water pokemon master which was specifically stated to be strongest water trainer in world showing great deal of interest in E4 members like Lorelei. Being her idol and wishing to become strong like her one day. E4 members are strongest type trainers in world and are actually labelled as type masters in games.
Concurrently with that Whirl Cup proved canonically how winner gets title Apha Mega of water pokemon being according to sea priest Maya and prof. Elm from newbark town title by which water masters(or as Japanese name suggests sea heroes)were called by. Knowing how to communicate with this type and use it to full potential.
Serving as bencmark required to be accomplished in order tio reach water master title with future steps being unknown due to Misty leaving main cast nlot leaving tome for further exploration.
I cannot even take your statement about personality seriously. Because if there was something Misty was really good at was in creating spontaneous, organic, unforced, humorous and lively chemistry with just about anyone, especially Ash. Nevermind fact that Brock had closest bond out of all girls Ash traveled with, with Misty. Being centralized around joking, mutual understanding , giving each other advices, liking to gossip about Ash mistakes and care.
One of strongest qualities about Misty was her incredibly varied personality having multiple traits specific to her, lot of passion , enthusiasm, appreciation for romance, sassy behavior coming with various jokes, along with defiant, strongwilled attitude not letting others to give up and be submissive and lot of unselfish, caring side.
Also your statement about Misty never doing anything is completely false too. ,because of having sad back story having to work hard for everything she achieved along with not being afraid to speak out her mind.
Misty purpose was in being supporting character who acted like Ash coach/mentor. She wasn't co-star but she did things providing humor and great chemistry between group,had several notable achievement and aside from battling did many other things which influenced plot in one way or another.
She was one along with Brock who influenced Ash a lot helping him to grow in trainer he became later giving identity to this anime and group as a whole.
And she had her own story and things which defined character. Story of wanting to become water pokemon master(best water trainer in world). Get recognized and acknowledged for her hard work and abilities showing whole world how elegant and unique water pokemon are. Had complex of viewing herself as inferior and worthless due to constant degradation and lack of understanding coming from her family(older sisters Daisy Lily and Violet)struggling to get out of their shadow.
Childhood trauma of almost ending eaten by Gyarados learning how to overcome it. Her own interests and hobbies such as passion for fishing, competitive flare whe it comes to battling, entering tournaments and winning. Appreciation for cute and girly stuff. Romance or meeting legendary water pokemon better understand their origins.
Accompanied with love feelings she developed in meantime for Ash causing confusion and insecurity inside character not being sure how to feel about it. Deepening on her thoughts.
With people liking how she was diamond in rough having to work hard for everything she achieved along with not being afraid to speak out her mind.
Not needing contests and huge arcs to feel relevant and proactive often taking "rudder" in her hands in stopping villains, Ash froim humiliating himself, wild pokemon or resolving dangerous situation. Through her bold, confident nature.
So try again.
I understand you dislike Misty. She is afterall acquired interest and type of characer you will either like alot or downright hate not being everyone cup of tea.
But when discussing her worth, at least stick to actual facts.
You're really going by what someone else says for your stat? You've seen Johto, so you should be able to determine for yourself what you think is filler or not. Filler generally being non-gym battles, non-captures, non-league battles, non-rival battles, and episodes that don't advance the main plot or characters. Johto is roughly 150 episodes long, so there is no way the number of true "fillers" should be under 50%.
My issue with fillers is how there doesnt exist aby universal criteria through which we could define how many non important episohes there existed per saga. For simple fact of almost every fan having its own definition of what is filler and what isnt being skewed at best.
There also exists problem with people often overlooking how pokemon anime isnt written as show with mind of introducing, fleshing out and developing characters through one specific arc and instantly. But through development of experience and gradual build up of someone as trainer and person as new people introduced in its life, pokemon, traveling experience and various stuations induce change.
For example in Misty case;i wont talk about her goal and ambitions because we know how that went. But while some things werent adequately handled(no denying that), many fans often completely overlook how Misty character deverlopment(emotional change in someone personaity) was present from start of Kanto to end of Johto followed by chronicles. Thing is that development in personality sense was slow, gradual and hapened over long period of timer., No occuring uirecty through specific episodes sometime, but more so through way her reactions gradally changed and way she viewed Ash and others around her, way how her characterization started to mature and gain new dimension.
This was noticeable with how Misty acted later down the road with hostility and intolerance changing in sarcasm, liking to tease Ash and Brock out of endearment, showing alot more care, admiration and support opening herself up . And even when they would sometime annoy her compared to violence in Kanto, Misty softened showing ability to control her outbursts better expressing simple annpoyance, shaking head in disbeliefior just yelling not being able to get mad at them for long. That change was even more notable with way how she started to view Ash developing romantic feelings toward him.
There were episodes in Johto where Misty character development and how much she changed as person compared to strat of journey was very well depicted, but due to lack of more coherent story majority of fans never really noticed such things, hence gaining impresion how "Misty had no development".
One of more notable examples happened in episodes "Trouble Brewing!" or "Espeon Included!" when Misty met Sakura becoming very good friends with her becase of both knowing how its like to live wih older sisters monitoring every step you make or be degraded. There Misty confined herself to Sakura showing gratitude of being able to meet Ash and Brock in her life meaning alot to her at that point being able to see world, experience all kind of adventures, new pokemon and mysteries in their company. Considering them as her own family feeling comfortable of being surrounded by people where she can feel welcomed and accepted.
To the point of being visibly distressed and sad of having to leave them behind. There were episodes where she learned to better understand water pokemon feelings and grow as person through close bond achieved with them. Such as her Poliwhirl in "Hook, Line and Stinker!". Or Marill from "Crying Out Loud! where we seen Misty learning how to get over her annoyance over Marill screaming and realizing she may had wrong opinion about it starting to bond and become more fond of it to the point of risking life to save it from dying and breaking down startring to cry at end of episode when letting it go. But not wanting that Ash, Brick see that being too proud to admit how that pokemon grew close to her heart, revealing complexity in character of not wanting that friends see her in tears leaving impression of being weak(result of being abandoned by psarents and degradation and neglect from older sisters caising her to grow up fast and develop need to be selfreliant and headstrong as person not wanting to look for pity).
Same applies to Brock showing signs of changing as breeder and person. Such as taking care of young Stantler in "Little Big Horn!" revealing how much more responsible and aware of what is truly important for pokemon happiness in chasing Stantler away from him. Knowing how he will have better life with its herd and mother. How he refused that old man with Schukle give him recipe for super potion realizing how true path toward becoming good breder doesnt lie in relying on chemicals but in using his knowledge, care and love toward pokemon helping them to reach maximum potential naturally. Etc, etc.
There were many episodes in Johto where subtle or more concrete changes happened with Misty, Brock, Ash growing up and changing way they viewed pokemon or world. Showed us insight in ther backstories, conflits going inside characters or their relationships progressing. Or introducing important item leading to pokemon evolution later on(such as Kings Rock which caused Misty Poliwhirl to evolve in Politoad from episode "Ring Masters!" ,myet people as usual when talking about Johto call that bland filler where nothing happened).
People just sort everyhing from Johto under"pointless fillers" which should be skipped wasting your time on them.
Hence why i think how real number of fillers where absolutely nothing happened from which characters or story could benefit was much lower than many seem to think.
Even with all its flaws, one thing I love about how the anime franchise is handled is how each of the five shows - OS, AG, DP, BW, and XY - can be evaluated on their own merits and what they bring to the table. It really allows for a lot more experimentation. That's also why I dislike these kinds of threads (aside from the ever-irritating OS nostalgia). The OP, by his or her own admission, has only seen one episode of XY s/he didn't like and is judging everything that came after Jouto ended by that when AG, DP, and BW all have substantial differences with XY.
This could really be it's own thread, but a short list of what each post-OS series brings:
- Advanced Generation: Haruka, the most developed of any of Satoshi's companions that I've seen so far, and a goal for her to do that allows fans to follow someone other than Satoshi aiming for something; better Pokémon battles and a better handling of Satoshi's team of Pokémon, to the point where they all have definable characteristics and moments to shine.
- Diamond & Pearl: Satoshi at his best, actually getting a bit of development for the first time since the OS; more emphasis and care put into the ongoing storylines; Satoshi's best rival in the anime (Shinji); Team Galactic - the only one of these evil teams to be done right; the second-most developed of Satoshi's companions, Hikari.
- Best Wishes: I'm not a fan of BW at all, but there are fans who've gotten a lot out of it. A new Team Rocket that doesn't show up in every episode, filler episodes that attempt to stand out from the usual Jouto/AG/DP formula, a cast of colorful new characters and rivals, mini-arcs (e.g. battle tournaments), and a fun group dynamic between Satoshi, Iris, and Dent.
- XY: I actually think XY has become a bit overrated in some circles, but: Satoshi, for the first time, traveling with a group of people his age (i.e. no "mentor" figure like Takeshi or Dent); Citron and Eureka, two highly entertaining travel companions; Serena, an attempt to return to promoting a secondary quest alongside Satoshi, and Amourshipping.
Whether or not you like any of these is up to you, obviously, but I love the variety. It's not something you ever get with some of the other anime Pocket Monsters is compared to around here, like Dragonball Z (seriously do not understand people's love for that show, it's godawful). But with threads like these, one can tell that the OP and certain others who post here will never give that stuff a fair chance.
Okay, my mistake, so it's three Gym Leaders he actually managed to beat on the first try (and even then, from what I can gather, Grant and Clemont actually had justified reasons for Ash beating them on the first try).
EDIT: And for the record, I really don't see how AG was actually that good, even on its own merits. Sure, May received some development (not as much as Misty, but still...). But on the other hand, Ash never had any real progression in his goal (which, BTW, his goal is the primary thing to be focused on). Even Best Wishes, the one series that had an even worse turnout regarding the league, actually had some progression in Ash's goal, even if it was in reverse. I think the Hoenn League is the only region where Ash literally stayed the same as before in terms of abilities (if it truly had a real point to it, Ash would have actually gotten Top 4 in Hoenn, not retained his Top 8 ranking from Johto). Even the one major accomplishment in AG that he ever had, winning the Battle Frontier, was pretty much treated as a joke (I'm sorry, but if Pikachu can't even beat an Ursaring that had been caught in the same region despite clearly being superior to it in terms of experience, not to mention taking down a Regice of all things, and to a guy who got knocked down flat by Brandon a few episodes earlier no less, I really can't see how Battle Frontier can be taken seriously. Had I been writing the show, any episode where Pikachu is in the Gym Leader would basically end in a second, and I'd make sure that, IF Ash had to lose against Paul in that battle, it would be against Torterra, the one Pokémon that actually DOES come close to Pikachu's experience level. Sure, may not be so fun, but at least it's realistic.). If anything, AG was one of the more pointless sagas, probably the closest we've got to a series composed 100% of filler, even WITH Ash catching Pokemon. And quite frankly, Dawn getting the same goal as May doesn't help matters, either. Neither does the fact that, of all the main cast members who came and went, May and Max are the only two former main characterswho haven't even gotten a Hoso special in any way (Misty and Tracey got episodes of Pokemon Chronicles at least, Brock got a Chronicles episode and two unrelated Hoso specials after his departure from DP, one of which also included Dent, Iris got a Hoso special after she left, and Dawn got a Hoso special after she left. What did May and Max get besides an obligatory cameo in the region? Nothing. Nada. Zip.). And quite frankly, I hated how they treated the Gym Leaders in AG. They may not be as strong as the Elite 4, but that does NOT mean that the Gym Leaders should be treated like how Jessie, James and Meowth were generally depicted (ie, incompetent and weak, especially in episode 3 where they lost to a Caterpie that had just barely even survived becoming a Pidgeotto's lunch due to Ash's stupidity and was obviously outranked by them in experience and outnumbered).
Oh, and also, I really didn't see why May even had to go on a Pokémon journey at all, let alone travel with Ash. Didn't she initially hate Pokémon due to a bad experience with Tentacool and being hit with a Pokeball by her mom? So why would she even enter a kind of profession that has her interacting with the very things she hated? She had a bit more of a reason than Max, who quite frankly shouldn't even be with the group at all because he's underage and thus can't go on a Pokémon journey and be a trainer even if he wanted to, not unless he were a Gym Leader (since going by Tate and Lisa's likely ages [obviously being younger than 10] being a Gym Leader's the only exception to that rule). Even Serena, as much as her reasons were extremely shallow, not to mention took a long time to even get a Pokémon besides her starter and formulate an actual goal, had a bit more of a reason to join up than May, at least it actually did relate to Ash in some fashion. Of the main cast members, only Brock, Misty, Dent, Iris, Dawn, and Clement had an actual reason to do Pokémon journeys, and of the characters who had a reason to go on a Pokémon journey, only Misty, Brock, and possibly Dent and Clemont had a reason to specifically travel with Ash rather than go by themselves.
I'm not going to go into depth but I would have to say that I'm one of those who hate to really compare the old with the new and even the series individually. To me it just sucks any fun I have with the show out and I really don't want that. Yes, I have my opinions for each one but all and all they all have their ups and down. All in all they all have their enjoyable aspects and if you focus on them and not what is missing or what you 'miss' because it's not what you're used to watching then you might just surprise yourself.
The old episodes seemed better even when I put nostalgia aside. At least it seemed like the show had potential back then but now it's the same cycle of Ash failing to become a Pokemon master, ditching his old pals and Pokemon, and visiting new places. Yawn.
Why do people even care so much about this? If you don't like the anime anymore, stop following it and talking about it. I have no clue why people who say they haven't watched the anime in years continue to complain about it.
This is on top of the fact that the anime is aimed at an entirely new generation of kids every time a new series starts, kids who have never seen pokemon before and this is all new to them. No clue why this actually bothers anyone.
The sense of entitlement when it comes to the anime is so bizarre. Pokemon is a children's anime used for marketing a children's game, and just because you fell out of the target demographic at some point doesn't mean that the quality of the show has dropped. It's baffling that the apparent lack of quality of a kid's anime can anger adults so much.
The nostalgia towards OS is irritating too. I loved OS because I was a kid when I watched it and I'll always look back on it fondly, but I'd be lying to myself if I said it didn't have a wealth of problems, particularly in Johto. Misty and Brock were not the infallible companions so many of you make them out to be; they were sidekicks at best, and the Pokemon they had received little focus. May and Dawn in comparison were far better companions, who had actual development, realistic and defined goals and ample screen time throughout their time on the show. I don't understand how you can try and argue objectively that Misty and Brock were better than anyone who came after them, or that the show is any worse of without them (Brock in particular well overstayed his welcome).
The way people cling to Misty, Brock and OS as a whole is borderline unsettling. The saga ended over a decade ago, let it go and move on.
