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hinkage

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    A lot of hacks claim to be different, but really aren't. (Some have some cool stuff in them though. I admit it, so don't hate on me)


    Here's all the types of hacks I know of:
    Player character vs. Team Bad
    Team Good vs. Team Bad with player character in the middle of it
    Player character vs. overly mean rival and/or overly mean Team Bad (to make the game more grown up/"darker")
    Remake of the mainstream games
    Games where it's not even Pokemon anymore


    Take some time to think outside the box.
    This probably won't be accepted but I'm submitting it anyway because the new hacks are bleh.
    And because I'm theultimateMetaKnightmain
     

    hinkage

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    It's up to people to do it themselves.
    I had the thought that we could have a sort of discussion thread but I'm not sure how it could work.

    I have lots of ideas:
    If your character is a criminal, why does it have to be public?
    Why do bad guys have to be in teams?
    Why do the bad guys all want domination?
    -Can't they fight for different causes?
    Not everyone besides the player should be helpless
    Include more good characters besides the rival
    -If the rival is not a good guy, then why is he/she evil?
    --Why does he/she hate the player?
    --Doesn't the rival have feelings?

    And more but I need to keep some for myself until I release my game. (Sorry, but they are MY ideas)
    These are just basic ideas for character development and such, they're not even that out of the box.
     
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  • Seems more like you want character development then originality, which is lacking in Game Freak's games anyway. And, it is Pokémon we're talking about. Speaking of which, there's only so much you can do to make a fangame of an already existing franchise original as...well, it's an existing franchise? I'd rather see canonical consistency then so-called "originality," because, lets face it, a donkey who is a sleuth and part-time DJ investigating murders of miniature dog people is original, but not necessarily good, is it?

    I do agree that some hacks are almost carbon copies of others, but some of the best hacks are pretty much just carbon copies of the main games, with slight tweaks in storyline etc. I don't mean that literally, and no offense to the creators (I'm a fan of these hacks), but Azure Horizons, rijonAdventures, Sienna, etc. all pretty much follow the same, basic storyline of the main Pokémon games. A more worrying factor of the current hacking scene is the lack of actual fun gameplay, good balance of mapping, graphics and decent scripting etc., as that does seem to be lacking recently. Still, it's only my two pence, no offense to anyone intended, etc.
     

    hinkage

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    I do agree that some hacks are almost carbon copies of others, but some of the best hacks are pretty much just carbon copies of the main games, with slight tweaks in storyline etc. I don't mean that literally, and no offense to the creators (I'm a fan of these hacks), but Azure Horizons, rijonAdventures, Sienna, etc. all pretty much follow the same, basic storyline of the main Pokémon games. A more worrying factor of the current hacking scene is the lack of actual fun gameplay, good balance of mapping, graphics and decent scripting etc., as that does seem to be lacking recently. Still, it's only my two pence, no offense to anyone intended, etc.

    I also mean story line. It's important to have a good train of thought, and to have a scenario that seems believable. But characters play a big part. They have to make choices and decisions that match their personality.

    Assume this is the same Oak we all know: Professor Oak is part of Team Rocket because he's being blackmailed into doing it. It's insane, but there's a viable reason.
    Versus: Oak is part of Team Rocket because he secretly wants power!!! Muhahahaha!

    The first one is the better choice. It's a stupid plot idea, but it fits with Oak's established character.
     
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  • I see where you're coming from, but I don't really think that encompasses originality. I would like to see more originality in the hacking scene, but in the form of something more...useful, I guess. Minigames, good ideas for "level" design, new puzzles, etc. Those are the original things that would make a difference. Storyline wouldn't really make a difference, as with most games; people never watch cutscenes, never read dialogue (it's a generalisation).

    But I do agree with you that some people's characters/stories are a bit outlandish/generic, but...

    aaah this post makes no sense at all ;___;
     

    Truality

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    I'm not sure if those were ideas or questions waiting to be turned into a fancy Q&A.
    I have lots of ideas:
    If your character is a criminal, why does it have to be public?
    Because he/she is not seen as a criminal if it's private.
    Why do bad guys have to be in teams?
    Because the lesser the evil, the greater its number.
    Why do the bad guys all want domination?
    They had some rough childhood.
    -Can't they fight for different causes?
    Yes they can, however it's not happening often, because a single cause has a single counter.
    Not everyone besides the player should be helpless
    Not everyone can be a player.
    Include more good characters besides the rival
    More rivals, then!
    -If the rival is not a good guy, then why is he/she evil?
    If you can't fight them, join them. So if you can't join them, fight them.
    --Why does he/she hate the player?
    Because rivals have feelings, too.
    --Doesn't the rival have feelings?
    Yes, those of hate.

    ---

    In short, I like my hacks to be cliched; what I consider "original" in a ROM hack is something fresh about the hacking experience itself (namely, the gameplay), instead of the storyline.

    'You are going for the league challenge' - I'm playing a pokemon hack.
    'You're an undercover agent whose parents are dead, with black belt in judo and your pokemon will help you in discovering heists' - What is this, Mission Impokemon?
     

    hinkage

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    In short, I like my hacks to be cliched; what I consider "original" in a ROM hack is something fresh about the hacking experience itself (namely, the gameplay), instead of the storyline.

    'You are going for the league challenge' - I'm playing a pokemon hack.
    'You're an undercover agent whose parents are dead, with black belt in judo and your pokemon will help you in discovering heists' - What is this, Mission Impokemon?

    Actually, I included those types of hacks that aren't even Pokemon anymore. I'm pretty sure no one likes them. (btw: "you're a kid in a zombie apocalypse with dragons and ghosts and demons" - What is this, Skyrim with Pokemon undead things? (Snakewood))

    You can be different without going all out. And I've nothing against just sticking to the plain and simple "become the best" as long as you change maps/dialogue/trainers/events. That can be fun.
     

    marcc5m

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  • Actually, I included those types of hacks that aren't even Pokemon anymore. I'm pretty sure no one likes them. (btw: "you're a kid in a zombie apocalypse with dragons and ghosts and demons" - What is this, Skyrim with Pokemon undead things? (Snakewood))

    You can be different without going all out. And I've nothing against just sticking to the plain and simple "become the best" as long as you change maps/dialogue/trainers/events. That can be fun.

    If you think Snakewood is unoriginal then there's absolutely no pleasing you.

    Anyway, some people simply prefer hacks that are, as you call it, "unoriginal" because they are closer to Game Freak's games, AKA the games that are hacking, AKA the games they love to play. If a game is similar to one of game Freak's games it also shows more professionalism.

    Also, in response to your sig (which is sort of relevant to this topic anyway), you can count the hacks which match that description that with one hand. I know one. See that? One hand.
     

    Perri Lightfoot

    Let's give it a go!
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    Storyline originality is overrated (and I say this as the creator of one of those "weird" hacks). Would it be nice to see a greater variety in plot and characterization? Yes, I agree with you that the generic Nintendo plot is dull and overdone, but what truly makes a hack original - and what people remember - is the gameplay. It's why people aren't mad at Mario after all these years of him doing little more than saving the Princess over and over - we don't care that the plot is really just an excuse to get the game's action going, because the game is fun. This isn't to say that plot doesn't have its place - it does. But puzzles, map design, battles and everything else that makes a Pokemon game great are the true mark of originality - a compelling story is just icing, and a cake doesn't need icing to be delicious. :)
     

    droomph

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  • Although, it's really hard to make a good puzzle. I've only made one good level in SMW, for example, and even that took about three months.

    Make getting the badge a little more different, maybe? Like, maybe not solve a puzzle and then defeat the Gym Leader, but instead help a NPC in a "quest" or something, and then you get the badge.

    Or maybe do something like B/W, where you don't fight the Champion, but instead you fight the Evil Genericosity to beat the game.

    A compelling story is just icing, and a cake doesn't need icing to be delicious. :)

    But you'll have to try very hard. Miyamoto and his team could do this because of their general abilities, and that's why they've cranked out so many games in just around twenty-five years.

    This isn't your paid job, so just make it easier on yourself...you know?

    But yeah. you're right.

    I don't know, just a couple thoughts.
     

    The Noob Hacker

    Praise the sun.
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    I honestly don't understand why people are always saying to make the gameplay original. We all know we are hacking Pokemon games, right? No matter what you do, you're still going to be playing a turn-based RPG. There's really not a lot to change. And if you do change the battle system entirely, then why even bother making a hack in the first place instead of just making your own game? Yes there are things that you can add- puzzles, mini-games, the like. But there's really only so much you can do. At the end of the day, it's still going to be a Pokemon game. So, knowing that no matter what you are going to be playing a turn-based RPG game, you might as well make it as interesting to play through as possible. Adding those extra gameplay mechanics is one way to do it, but like I said, there's only so much that can be done. So the only other things left are graphics and storyline, the things people claim aren't important compared to gameplay. While I do, to a degree, agree with this, I also believe that these things are far more important in a hack where, no matter what, you are going to be playing a game that is similar to the Nintendo games anyways. So, while saying that gameplay is more important than anything sounds real pretty on paper, it must be considered that you will still be playing a Pokemon game and, as a result, will have similar gameplay which will inevitably get boring. Really, it is these seemingly less important things, story, grapchics, music, that really make hacks different from one another.

    One last thing, I really hate the comparison of icing on a cake used by Pink Parka Girl. Are you honestly saying that you like a hack that is literally a string of progressively harder battles and puzzles with no ryhme or reason to them? I don't know, I just don't seem to find that very appealing. I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but Pokemon is Pokemon, and at this point I just fast forward through the battles and random encounters because I've already done it so many time that I don't care. (Unless they have really good music) The only parts that get me really interested is seeing how well (or poorly) the story plays out, looking around towns, talking to the NPCs, seeing how the gyms are layed out (if there are any) and all that other "icing" stuff. I don't know, I guess I'm one of those weird guys who actually *gasp* READS! (dramatic music)

    I don't know, I guess you could say that I would prefer a game that would inspire others to not just run through to get to the trainers as quickly as possible. Something that doesn't use the story that is just a renamed version of the classic story as a vehicle to railroad their players into the gyms. Maybe the towns could have a bit of atmosphere to them (For example, Villiage Bridge is probably one of my favorite Pokemon areas of all time because the music is so calming, and all of the different musical styles blending together give the whole place an esscence of overall togetherness, despite backrounds, preference, ect.) I guess what I'm saying is that maybe towns could have a bit more flair to them and not just be groups of buildings at convienient spots. Have a bit of culture or history behind your region to make it seem like a more real place and be more immersive. If you have the resources, inserting music or new tiles (almost) always enhances the feel of a hack, whether it make a certain area seem more atmospheric or just makes the game look more stylized. Yes, I know, my expectations are ridiculously high, and I will never be pleased. But I can dream, can't I? Not like it's ever going to happen, though, and I there's no way I could pull that off (I always have this habit of setting outragous expectations knowing they are far beyond my limits) either, so I guess I have no right to complain. (I never understood the whole "you can't complain if you can't do better" mentality. If someone makes me a boat that sinks, can I not complain because I can't build a boat?)

    Wow, that was just a ramble-fest.
     

    hinkage

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    While I do, to a degree, agree with this, I also believe that these things are far more important in a hack where, no matter what, you are going to be playing a game that is similar to the Nintendo games anyways. So, while saying that gameplay is more important than anything sounds real pretty on paper, it must be considered that you will still be playing a Pokemon game and, as a result, will have similar gameplay which will inevitably get boring. Really, it is these seemingly less important things, story, grapchics, music, that really make hacks different from one another.


    I don't know, I guess you could say that I would prefer a game that would inspire others to not just run through to get to the trainers as quickly as possible. Something that doesn't use the story that is just a renamed version of the classic story as a vehicle to railroad their players into the gyms. Maybe the towns could have a bit of atmosphere to them (For example, Villiage Bridge is probably one of my favorite Pokemon areas of all time because the music is so calming, and all of the different musical styles blending together give the whole place an esscence of overall togetherness, despite backrounds, preference, ect.) I guess what I'm saying is that maybe towns could have a bit more flair to them and not just be groups of buildings at convienient spots. Have a bit of culture or history behind your region to make it seem like a more real place and be more immersive. If you have the resources, inserting music or new tiles (almost) always enhances the feel of a hack, whether it make a certain area seem more atmospheric or just makes the game look more stylized.

    Wow, that was just a ramble-fest.

    I agree completely with everything here.

    If anyone is wondering what I'm doing to help, it's that I'm making a game (not the one in my sig -- I finished that.) that fits all those demands in the second paragraph.
     
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    The Problem is, While your trying to add depth to the story and characters you have to keep it feeling like a Pokémon game. People can spend ages developing a story but end up failing by not sticking near the original formula, New ideas can be good but you don't want to end up making something else :)
     

    The Noob Hacker

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    The Problem is, While your trying to add depth to the story and characters you have to keep it feeling like a Pokémon game. People can spend ages developing a story but end up failing by not sticking near the original formula, New ideas can be good but you don't want to end up making something else :)

    Who ever said it had to be like a Pokemon game? Is there some unwritten law that every hack every made must stick to the original formula or else it is instantly not good? Why is it so important that a hack emulate the style of the original games? Isn't it up to the hacker what their game will be like? Also, what would be the point of hacking if you are going to make a carbon copy of the Nintendo games every time anyways? And like I said earlier, it will still have a Pokemon engine running it, therefore (so long as there are Pokemon) it will be a Pokemon game. I just don't understand why every game has to be "get these badges and beat super strong trainers while putting data in this machine that, despite being around for years and likely completed before, we refuse to give you anything but a blank one. Also, watch out for the petty evil team who usually have an illogical goal and are often not competent enough to pose a big enough threat to get the police or the military involved. Even my favorite teams- Plasma and Galactic, who are my favorites because they got the closest to doing something, were still defeated by a single kid. Seriously, how does one kid bring down an entire crime organization by beating them in Pokemon battles? Can't the team just heal their Pokemon and go about their business?)

    This is why I feel we need more games that don't follow the original formula. Yeah, they're harder to make, but it can be done. (Rescue Rangers, anyone? Although I never played through the entire thing and the part that I did play to I couldn't say that I especially liked it, it is still an example of a Pokemon hack that wasn't exactly like the originals.) If we do get a couple more good hacks that aren't like the regular Pokemon games, maybe it will be enough to break the way of thinking that every Pokemon hack has to be like the original Pokemon games. Nothing has to be overhauled, there can still be trainers and everything, but just doing a couple things differently can have a huge effect.

    One thing you can do is Remove Gyms/Make Gyms a secondary goal

    Most of the time, gyms in Pokemon games are the main focus, and going to these gyms is usually what leads you to the evil team, which is usually a secondary focus. And if you are going to have gyms, don't do what B/W did. I loved those games, but the regions was just so linear and they had a gym in every town, it made the game go by too fast. B/W may have my favorite story, but Unova has probably some of the worst region design I've seen. The towns are nice and everything, but just the placement of them wasn't exactly good. I liked what Hoenn did, even though it didn't allow for much freedom. It had you do a lot of going around, defeated the teams in certain places before you could continue on. (I'm talking more specifically of how you have to go to Fallarbor and defeat the grunts at Meteor Cave or whatever it is called before you can get to Lavairidge. All the way you had to do a bit of backtracking, but overall the region was able to pack quite a bit of content into a small area.

    Also, don't be afraid to mess around with the formula. For example, the games say you have to beat eight gyms, maybe you say they must beat ten, or sixteen. Since apparently ROMs are big enough to support two regions, you could combine them together and make some huge super region. (Sure, the gyms past the eighth one wouldn't have badges, but whatever)

    I thought I had more to say, but I don't. Guess that's a good thing though, got out my rant for the day.
     
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  • Who ever said it had to be like a Pokemon game? Is there some unwritten law that every hack every made must stick to the original formula or else it is instantly not good? Why is it so important that a hack emulate the style of the original games? Isn't it up to the hacker what their game will be like? Also, what would be the point of hacking if you are going to make a carbon copy of the Nintendo games every time anyways? And like I said earlier, it will still have a Pokemon engine running it, therefore (so long as there are Pokemon) it will be a Pokemon game. I just don't understand why every game has to be "get these badges and beat super strong trainers while putting data in this machine that, despite being around for years and likely completed before, we refuse to give you anything but a blank one. Also, watch out for the petty evil team who usually have an illogical goal and are often not competent enough to pose a big enough threat to get the police or the military involved. Even my favorite teams- Plasma and Galactic, who are my favorites because they got the closest to doing something, were still defeated by a single kid. Seriously, how does one kid bring down an entire crime organization by beating them in Pokemon battles? Can't the team just heal their Pokemon and go about their business?)

    This is why I feel we need more games that don't follow the original formula. Yeah, they're harder to make, but it can be done. (Rescue Rangers, anyone? Although I never played through the entire thing and the part that I did play to I couldn't say that I especially liked it, it is still an example of a Pokemon hack that wasn't exactly like the originals.) If we do get a couple more good hacks that aren't like the regular Pokemon games, maybe it will be enough to break the way of thinking that every Pokemon hack has to be like the original Pokemon games. Nothing has to be overhauled, there can still be trainers and everything, but just doing a couple things differently can have a huge effect.

    One thing you can do is Remove Gyms/Make Gyms a secondary goal

    Most of the time, gyms in Pokemon games are the main focus, and going to these gyms is usually what leads you to the evil team, which is usually a secondary focus. And if you are going to have gyms, don't do what B/W did. I loved those games, but the regions was just so linear and they had a gym in every town, it made the game go by too fast. B/W may have my favorite story, but Unova has probably some of the worst region design I've seen. The towns are nice and everything, but just the placement of them wasn't exactly good. I liked what Hoenn did, even though it didn't allow for much freedom. It had you do a lot of going around, defeated the teams in certain places before you could continue on. (I'm talking more specifically of how you have to go to Fallarbor and defeat the grunts at Meteor Cave or whatever it is called before you can get to Lavairidge. All the way you had to do a bit of backtracking, but overall the region was able to pack quite a bit of content into a small area.

    Also, don't be afraid to mess around with the formula. For example, the games say you have to beat eight gyms, maybe you say they must beat ten, or sixteen. Since apparently ROMs are big enough to support two regions, you could combine them together and make some huge super region. (Sure, the gyms past the eighth one wouldn't have badges, but whatever)

    I thought I had more to say, but I don't. Guess that's a good thing though, got out my rant for the day.

    With the "making gyms a secondary goal" thing, that's almost exactly how my hack is going to be, because in the game you aren't even allowed in the gyms but to continue moving forward you need to even though your mom finds out and gets mad
     
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    Hmm, I see where you are coming from. But the hack I'm doing right now isn't even Pokemon. Also in the other one I'm doing, there are two teams, like in RS, but your rival joins one of them, and at one point, you do too. And also there will be fatalities, probably.
    But in most hacks, people are trying to keep the same style as the official games.
     
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    I've been writing on paper a hack sort of like your talking about, with much more depth to it. But i don't want to make a hack and there is nobody to appreciate it. But once I get the story complete and get a new computer to start hacking (also learn to hack) I'll give some more information/back story on it. Look for it soon: Pokemon Song For The Asking.
     

    Questor

    Came back here to download more hacks
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    I prefer the story/line and plot (there's something about the way they are made, like dedication, things etc...), tied along with characters/ization, and character arc, and related things (gameplay, yes, puzzles, yes, but I like something that would make me think and my gears churning, and make me think theories about what happened to the characters, past, history etc..).
    I swear they're the one thing that made me play your game, hinkage. (And Cutlerine's too.)
     
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