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Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians

Kanzler

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    https://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/10/21/pope-francis-right-wing-christians/

    Read the article, watch the video.

    Pope Francis has been very clear about how he feels about ideological purity in religion. He's been particularly critical of right-wing Christian fundamentalism. Pope Francis has shifted the focus of the Catholic Church to issues facing the poor and the sick. He has railed against economic inequality and has criticized the anti-gay and anti-abortion strains that have come to dominate the Christian Right here in America. Such ideological extremism is dangerous, not only to Christianity, but to the world. And Pope Francis said as much last Thursday.

    Pope Francis called right-wing Christian fundamentalism a sickness.
    During a daily Mass last week, Pope Francis called ideological Christianity "an illness" that doesn't serve Jesus Christ. Instead, it "frightens" people and pushes them away from religion.

    According to Radio Vatican, the Pope said:

    "In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid. And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: 'You have taken away the key of knowledge.' The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements. The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?"
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    While Pope Francis did not specifically mention Christian right-wing ideology during the Mass, his past remarks suggest he was talking about that ideology most of all.

    In September, Pope Francis attacked "savage capitalism" and took up the plight of the unemployed against a system that worships money. Earlier that month, the Pope also criticized conservative Catholics for focusing so much on abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception. And in July, Pope Francis put the brakes on hating gay people, saying that we shouldn't judge or marginalize them.

    Clearly, Pope Francis isn't fond of the extreme ideals of the Christian Right. He supports helping the poor. He believes in economic fairness. He denounces hatred of gay people. He thinks the war against abortion and birth control has gone too far. Considering all of these things, it's pretty obvious that Pope Francis was mostly talking to right-wing Christians on Thursday. Their ideological fanaticism has damaged religion. They have abandoned the true teachings of Jesus to pursue an extremist agenda. And Pope Francis just called them out for it. Cue right-wing rage in 3, 2, 1…
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    Discuss.
     
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    This all started with the Great Awakening. People burned Bibles and other religious texts, went into psychological fits, and chased classic pastors and preachers out of their towns. The Great Awakening is what started this ideology. We can, hopefully, put an end to it with this Pope's reign.


    "Love is patient. Love is kind." - Mary Lambert, Same Love (Macklemore ft. Mary Lambert)
     
    I don't understand. People wish to implement their belief into many (every?) aspect(s) of their lives and that makes them "obsessed" and "ill"? Maybe some people aren't happy with an abstract, feel-good passive faith and wish to put value to divine rules in the Bible. The belief system itself or the actions of people should be scrutinised, but not the desire to adhere to a belief in its totality. Discuss the details with them if you think they're wrong; don't write them as fanatics.

    No one should be able to tell other people how to live, especially if they don't share your beliefs -- that is a given, I think. But to call for their religion as an ideology rather than a vague set of ideas with selectively applied rules sounds pretty sincere and I wouldn't fault someone for wanting that.

    Just so you know, I'm not defending or even in agreement with any of those particular beliefs (I'm not Christian). I can just see where they're coming from and don't think marginalisation is the answer to unity.
     
    Alessi_sys said:
    For some the world exists in black and white. If you are not with them, then you are against them and thus are marginalizing them. I find often too many religious zealots have this persecution complex where they feel the whole world is against them.
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    Well in this case it kind of is black and white when the primary representative of your entire religion -- the Pope -- outright calls you crazy and says your perceptions are warped.
     
    I think the Pope's message is spot on - especially his point about ideological Christians "not actually praying". If you were truly communicating with god, thinking about his values and what he would like to see in the world, would you be honouring that by having an ideological worldview? I'm only atheist, but something tells me that's not what god would have wanted. I don't think god would want people distancing each other, but rather people embracing each other.

    Now, I know that god is unknowable and that nobody should make a pretense of being able to understand him. However, I think it's possible to make an acid test for major principles. Even if god is unknowable, he certainly isn't random, and if religion doesn't have a "big picture" then I really can't see why people would value it so much. Take social alienation. I don't think it's god's wishes to alienate people, at least that would seem counter to what Jesus taught. If you're alienating people faster than talking politics with your in-laws, you're probably doing something wrong. And that is what I think the Pope was getting at, not just mere vilification.

    I'm sure even the most religiously fundamental believe sincerely. They probably do believe more sincerely than a more moderate or reformist person. However sincere they may be, if we can so easily point out something that is wrong, then it is probably wrong. Just because they're being sincere doesn't mean they're doing it right. There's no one right way to do religion, but history has shown us that there can be wrong ways. And by his mention of illness, what I got was that ideological Christians reflect a disease of the church, not something pathologically wrong within the individuals (however the thought of only repeating prayers without actually praying is pretty twisted to me, but he may have a point there).

    I like how he is so plain-speaking, like he says something once and you instantly understand his point. I don't think he's being particularly offensive either. Now that's effective communication.
     
    zakisrage said:
    We need someone to stand up to Christian fundamentalist garbage - why not the Pope?
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    Because even within religions there is politics. Religious leaders answer to their base just as much as politicians do. Even the pope has to be mindful of his actions lest more conservative members within his church start clamoring for his removal from "office."
     
    Alessi_sys said:
    Because even within religions there is politics. Religious leaders answer to their base just as much as politicians do. Even the pope has to be mindful of his actions lest more conservative members within his church start clamoring for his removal from "office."
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    They can't "remove" him from office, but they can force him to resign like they did with Ratzinger.

    I'm quite surprised by Francis, though, because I had heard he was quite conservative before he was elected and had links to the right-wing military dictatorship in Argentina which tortured and killed thousands of innocent people. However, his current views are much the same as mine. They won't bring me back to Catholicism but they may make me support him in the future.
     
    Cerberus87 said:
    They can't "remove" him from office, but they can force him to resign like they did with Ratzinger.
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    I would call that an example of removing him from office. One way or another, they would see it done if this Pope goes too far with his reforms.

    Cerberus87 said:
    I'm quite surprised by Francis, though, because I had heard he was quite conservative before he was elected and had links to the right-wing military dictatorship in Argentina which tortured and killed thousands of innocent people. However, his current views are much the same as mine. They won't bring me back to Catholicism but they may make me support him in the future.
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    Well, for me, I have about as much faith in religious leaders as I do in the weather forecasters getting the forecast right. That is to say, not at all. I judge a person by their actions, not by the words that come out of their mouths. So far, this Pope appears to be an honourable man, despite his beliefs which I strongly disagree with. But time will tell. He's still getting settled into the role. We'll see what a couple years as Pope does to the man.
     
    Just have to say first of all, the phrase "takes aim" makes it sound so epic :D

    More to the point, I agree with what the Pope says. Since I'm not a Christian, I can't say for sure where the line is drawn for "too ideological", because that varies from religion to religion. But I can say that here in the US of A, we have a certain group collectively known as the Christian right, and even a non-believer like me can see that there isn't much Christianity in what they do.

    I'm specifically referring to the "The US is a Christian nation!" crowd. I've noticed that to a lot of them, Christianity is nothing more than a cultural practice rather than an actual belief. Or that going to church every Sunday and having a picture of Jesus in your living room somehow makes you a better citizen or "more American" than the next person.

    Unfortunately, most of these people also don't identify as Catholic, so they probably don't even recognize the Pope as having any authority...
     
    Both his words and his actions ring true to me as what you would call a "true Christian". Yes, I mean the Christians who are of Christ. Christ-like, if you will; not someone who thinks they know better than everyone else and tries to force everyone to join them in their ignorance.
     
    It's refreshing to hear this. The image I've had in my head of the Catholic hierarchy is that of an old pyramid with many mummies on different levels, each having a more flamboyant headdress than the previous one. This man seems to break the chain somewhat.

    The problem is you can't really take what he says as fact - the divide between sincere faith and ideological fundamentalism is not certain. He has defined it for himself and made his opinion known. I think a decent religious person becomes an ideological agent only when he/she tries to use that faith to alter someone else.
     
    God this. I am christian, if I believe in God and the bible that's hard for me to say I am very strained with what I believe in because so many things make sense whilst others... no.
    I understand what this guy is trying to do but just focus on what really needs to be done, help people and give people something to believe in. All religion are the same (not counting those weird demon cults) the one thing it comes down to is to help each other but like most things it gets twisted and such. I think this Pope is going to do a lot of good things for the christian church I really do but if people want to believe in something then let them. If someone wants to punch me let them so than I can punch back!
     
    Speaking as an atheist, his level-headedness, common sense, and vision gives him moral authority in my eyes. I don't have to be Christian to know that I can respect him and what comes out of his mouth. And it's great that he's the one saying this. Do I think certain people are getting religion all wrong? Sure I do. Does that idea mean more when the Pope is the one speaking? Of course.

    Do you think this could lead to a revival of Christianity, a rebirth of sorts? While he remains the leader of the Catholic church, if he is leading a compassionate vision, then perhaps his leadership could lead to spillover across all Christian denominations. Maybe more people will be inspired and return to the faith, or find greater meaning in what they already believe.
     
    BlahISuck said:
    I'm sure even the most religiously fundamental believe sincerely. They probably do believe more sincerely than a more moderate or reformist person. However sincere they may be, if we can so easily point out something that is wrong, then it is probably wrong. Just because they're being sincere doesn't mean they're doing it right. There's no one right way to do religion, but history has shown us that there can be wrong ways. And by his mention of illness, what I got was that ideological Christians reflect a disease of the church, not something pathologically wrong within the individuals (however the thought of only repeating prayers without actually praying is pretty twisted to me, but he may have a point there).
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    Slightly off-topic, but it reminds me of this time I visited my Catholic friend and her mom gave me a rosary and made me pray with them. (No special occasion; they just pray every day). She thought she was doing the right thing (as she's studied all the religions, she claims, and finds Catholicism to be the only "correct" one), but I'm not Catholic and don't care to be, thank you.

    This Pope is my dawg though. The obsession the Catholic church has with sex is ridiculous, especially with the poor dying of hunger outside the Vatican while another riot over gay marriage explodes a few blocks away.

    I'm glad he's speaking up, but I doubt this will cause any sort of "rebirth"--not in Catholicism, much less in other Christian denominations. The Pope may be the Pope, but that doesn't save him from backlash from right-wing Catholics, and many have in fact shown outright disapproval at his ideology. If anything, I've noticed more liberal Catholics coming out and supporting him and just being more proud of their Catholicism. He might change a couple minds, but I doubt it will be anything too big.
    As for Christianity in general, each sect does their own thing, but one thing they can all agree on is that the Pope is just another guy in a big hat. They don't care for the Pope (or rather, they don't care enough to have his doctrine affect their church-life). Sure, there may be some "boos" or "yays" from some members of other Christian denominations, but it's unlikely any rebirth in Christianity will come out of Pope Francis's reign.
     
    I think he is a genuinely kind and humble man. And moreover, I think he's insightful enough to realize that Catholicism is at an impasse, rocked by scandal after scandal, and that the true meaning of message has lost its luster. He could very well be the one to help return Christianity/Catholicism to relevance, if he keeps at it. I for one love this guy, and think that so far, he's one of the best religious figures I've seen in my lifetime.
     
    It's nice to see a Pope that doesn't suck. In fact I'm pretty chill with this guy.

    I thought it was hilarious how the last one gtfo because he was like... no homo... no homo... then all the sudden... "oh crap"
     
    It has been reported recently that the new Pope has iterated his opposition to gays adopting children.

    Pope Francis 'Shocked' By Gay Adoption Bill: Report

    Pope Francis reportedly was "shocked" by a bill that would allow gay couples to adopt children in Malta.

    Maltese Bishop Charles Scicluna told the Times Of Malta that he spoke with Pope Francis about the bill and the pope encouraged him to speak out against it.

    The Holy See's reaction may come as a surprise to those who have viewed him as progressive on gay rights. LGBT magazine "The Advocate" even named him their person of the year, citing his comments about homosexuals. "Who am I to judge a gay person of goodwill who seeks the Lord?" he told reporters in Italian in July.

    Despite his July comments, the pope has a long history of being against gay rights. He has come out strongly opposed to same-sex marriage and called it "a destructive attack" on God's plan.

    Lawmakers in Malta introduced a bill this fall to allow civil unions and same-sex adoptions. The legislature is expected to continue debating the proposed law in the new year.
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    Reminding us once again that the Church still has a long way to go before it joins us in the 21st century. I'd say in another couple decades it might actually reach the 19th century.

    As good as this Pope seems to be, he's still a Catholic who remains prejudiced against the gay community, and against women. I find it hilarious that the majority of people who self-identify as Catholics rarely adhere to the church's teachings. Most support same sex couples being able to get married, support people who are gay adopting children, and actively use birth control, including condoms, the pill, the IUD, and others.
     
    https://www.latimes.com/world/world...ouples-20140105,0,1567038.story#axzz2pYoCxzgN

    Ehh, that's a shame. But not entirely unexpected. I do see a silver lining however. He isn't addressing gay people in isolation, but including them in comments about spirituality and living good lives. That kind of inclusion, amidst all the historical intolerance, is significant - it's treating gay people as people, not as some kind of "other". He's not reaching out to gay people - he's reaching out to everybody. Maybe it's not enough, but it's a change and it's a good one.
     
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