Priorities, Permission and Credits in Rom Hackings

[deathscythe]

This is a little confusing but I'll try to make it understandable and hopefully others who can debate on this will reply.


Example Event #001:
You've making your own Pokemon Hack, but most of the sprites edits are from other existing hacks such as Ash and Misty from Naranja Edition and the Blastoise SURF sprite from Pokemon: Third Element.

Question: It considered STOLEN work if you did not get the artist permission, but if you add the spriter name to the credit list, would it considered stolen?

If it is, why so?
If we have credited to the spriter but they still say "you are a thief", would that make everyone who add uses DP Pokemons in their hacks to be a "thief" too, even if it was credited to the original spriter from GameFreak/Nintendo?


Example Event #002:
Pokemon Naranja Edition is an interesting rom hack project, and I've like to play it despite having to restart from the beginning again and again due to it's bug... I still enjoys it.

But for some others, all they does is complain and say Naranja is bad in translation wise, lots of bugs everywhere, and it's not as straight-forward as the original Pokemon RPG concept, they will intend to use that idea and make their own Orange Island version.


Question A:
People called it "being inspired"... it's good if someone wanted to make a better version of Naranja, but is it wrong to follow exactly like Naranja?

Question B:
"I can do a better English translation then this!"
...and so you did. You've hacked a hacked game, did a better English translation, which means "completely no Spanish words", and release it on your website... claimed it as your work. Is it wrong?





PS: I'll update this topic if there is anymore I can figure out. In the meantime, let's debate.

 

[thethethethe]

Interesting thread. Here's some opinions.

Event #001
Without permission from the spriter, I'd say your a thief. Some people don't want others to use their work, so even with credit they wouldn't be happy to see their work.
I've also seen cases where there stuff has been sprited specifically for another person. So you can't rip that data from the ROM and use it yourself.
Bringing up Nintendo/Gamefreak isn't a good example. If you've ever read Nintendo's opinion on Game Making/Hacking, is that it is fine with it as long as you don't use their material, which of course we all do. Even us using the sprites, the scripts, any logos is technically stealing. Of course we know that we aren't trying to take away any profit from Nintendo by handing out ips patches for free, and why would Nintendo even bother with some kids editing games.
So hopefully I made sense and didn't ramble, and we're all technically thieves.
Event #002
I don't mind that. I might be annoying like when we saw at least ten mystery dungeon styled games when destinedjagold's Ruby Destiny: Rescue Rangers appeared.
It's a way for new hackers to think that they can shoot up to mass popularity by riding on the back of another idea. There are more examples than the Naranja one. We have the MD style I mentioned above, the GS remake phase and even a bit of a fad where most scrapbox hacks ran along the same idea of running through the anime storyline of Kanto.
I may be missing the point here a bit, but I don't mind the idea of taking the general idea of a game.

Event #003
That's normally not right. Sure there are some cases like EV's Rocket's Revenge where the source was declared to be for open use and the game was taken up by someone else and only really giving little credit to the original and that's fine. But for the majority of cases, you can't claim all the time and effort someone has placed into their work. Sure you took the time to fix text but the idea wasn't yours, and the amount of time you put was probably significantly less than the original creator.
If you really wanted to create a better translation, speak with the creator, and maybe your text edit could become the 'official' translation but taking credit for the whole hack, not the best idea.

Okay, it's somewhat late and there's probably some rambling there but that's something.

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Thethethethe, it's midnight, you should be getting to bed.

xD I can't talk, it's almost 2 now. xD

When you take people's work, you HAVE to ask and then (if they say) you give permission. :\

 

[deathscythe]

When you take people's work, you HAVE to ask and then (if they say) you give permission. :\

You missing the twisting part here.
The event is "Taking people work without permission but alternatively, you instead add their names/nick to the credit roll."

...which in a sense, telling everyone, "this sprite art was created by [USERNAME], and it's not my work".

 

[colcolstyles]

You missing the twisting part here.
The event is "Taking people work without permission but alternatively, you instead add their names/nick to the credit roll."

...which in a sense, telling everyone, "this sprite art was created by [USERNAME], and it's not my work".

Even then, it's considered poor etiquette. Pointing out that it's not your work doesn't justify your cause. And in some cases, people don't want other people using their work, even if they are credited. You should, in general, talk directly to the creator and ask for permission for anything and you have to respect whatever answer they may give you.

Example Event #002:
Pokemon Naranja Edition is an interesting rom hack project, and I've like to play it despite having to restart from the beginning again and again due to it's bug... I still enjoys it.

But for some others, all they does is complain and say Naranja is bad in translation wise, lots of bugs everywhere, and it's not as straight-forward as the original Pokemon RPG concept, they will intend to use that idea and make their own Orange Island version.


Question A:
People called it "being inspired"... it's good if someone wanted to make a better version of Naranja, but is it wrong to follow exactly like Naranja?

Question B:
"I can do a better English translation then this!"
...and so you did. You've hacked a hacked game, did a better English translation, which means "completely no Spanish words", and release it on your website... claimed it as your work. Is it wrong?





PS: I'll update this topic if there is anymore I can figure out. In the meantime, let's debate.

If someone creates a good idea and you borrow it, it's not always a good thing. For example, go out and count the number of G/S/C remakes out there. In my opinion, you can use any ideas given that your version of it has considerable differences. That being said, you still might want to sit down and have a little chat with the person(s) who created the idea you want to borrow. If it something as small as, say, a personality for a character in your hack, they probably won't mind but if you want to borrow the underlying concept from a hack (like Rescue Rangers) or the plot of a hack, that's a whole different story (no pun intended).

It's nice to see you getting people's opinions though. Some people would just assume that everything was okay and that could lead to trouble.

 

[IIMarckus]

The answers to these questions depend almost solely on the viewpoint of the original author of a hack, and how he wants his work to be used. If the author doesn't want you to use his hack as a base, then don't.

I believe in openness. When I create content, I release it under a license that permits unlimited redistribution and modification. For instance, the text on my web site is released under a CC‐BY license, which allows anyone to copy or make derivatives from it with the sole condition being that they mention me as the original author (and I'm considering the removal of even that clause). You could even print it out and sell it if you wished and I wouldn't bug you for a cut of the profits, although I certainly would appreciate some ;)

ROM hacks are somewhat different in that regard, because they aren't really the same type of media as text. Patches are just modifications to a binary file, with no comments nor any form of documentation, unless it's in a separate file. People generally work on their hacks by editing manually in a hex editor, or by doing operations with a tool by clicking a mouse. This is exceedingly inefficient (ever tried repointing by hand?), and means that if for instance you applied an ASM hack to your ROM and released it as a patch, anyone who wanted to modify it would have to literally do tedious assembly work in a hex editor to make major changes like reordering events.

I think that the use of automated tools, as opposed to the hex editors and manual tools that we have now, is the future of ROM hacking. When that becomes widespread, those authors who truly support open content will release the source to their scripts and let others do what they want.

If someone creates a good idea and you borrow it, it's not always a good thing. For example, go out and count the number of G/S/C remakes out there.

This is debatable. After all, the high‐quality hacks still exceedingly stand out among the sea of clones.

 

[destinedjagold]

You missing the twisting part here.
The event is "Taking people work without permission but alternatively, you instead add their names/nick to the credit roll."

...which in a sense, telling everyone, "this sprite art was created by [USERNAME], and it's not my work".

the heck?
no matter what the viewpoint may be, it's still considered stealing.
your post, you aren't being sensitive towards the makers of those sprites or whatevers...

---oOo---​

anyways,
Explanation 1...
yes, it's considered stealing if you didn't ask for the owner's permission, unless if they post it there "you can use them but remember to give credit" or anything related to it.

Explanation 2's Question A...
as long as you didn't used the hack as your starting point, then it's okay.

Explanation 2's Question B...
claiming it as your work is also considered stealing.
you can translate it as long as the owner asked you to...

 

[Imposter Oak]

1) I think it is considered stolen if you didn't get permission, even if you credit the original artist/author/lamer. That's my concept of what stealing is. So yes, I think people who use DP Pokemon in their hacks are thieves. I think ROM hackers generally are thieves. I believe in honour amongst thieves, I'd generally respect the wishes of a friendly ROM hacker more than the original company who's just worried about the money.

2a) If they want to make sure that the hack's understandable and therefore a more enjoyable experience then I wouldn't see a problem in releasing a better translation. Even if you didn't get the original authors permission, just so long as you make it very clear (through a readme or whatever) that it's unofficial or something like that and you can't blame the original author for anything that might be seen as negative (like Engrish, swearing that wasn't originally there etc).

If you're just talking about Naranja in particular, then I don't think it would be right for anyone other than the original hacker to just claim it as their own work. But the original idea of the Orange Islands came from Nintendo/Gamefreak and my answer to question one shows that I think that any hacker could make their own "Orange Islands" version, there's been quite a few attempts at it by various people already.

2b) I think I've answered this one above somehow. :laugh:
I think claiming the translation part as your own is alright, just not the entire thing.

 

[deathscythe]

I actually like the term which thethethethe uses... "We are all technically thieves".

But I guess if those hacks or sprites are coming from here, and the sprite artist are reachable, it does not hurt to ask for permission.

Long ago, I used to create this Pokemon Box Cover called Sky Version and I found it on some guy webby and stated he create it... I get so pissed that spam his shoutbox and tell everyone he's a thief claiming my work for his.

For my case, I wouldn't mind my work being used by others without asking permission. As long it's credited to me, I'm willing to lend a hand if they need assistance.

Why is because I would be happier if people to use my work and I saw my nick on the credit role, rather then opening the PM box everyday answering the same question "can i use you work for my rom project" over and over again... loss lot of time hassle that way.

 

[BUG♥CATCHER★BREEZE]

I think you should be clear with whether some one else can use your work. Then, at least people will know whether to use it or not. Otherwise, people should message you for permission, even if it must be annoying, its better than it floating around the internet uncredited.

 

[deathscythe]

Actually last time, i have like over 3-6 (cant really recall) people requesting can I use you sprite for this and that in their rmxp project or something... so i said sure. and it was 3 years back, none of their project was complete... all was canceled. So yeah... bug me for like 3minutes each and no results in the end... hmm...

Wat to do... the only people i see completed their project nowadays is either really influence by it and are committed, or someone pays them to work.

 

[deathscythe]

Here's another situation that needs to debate.
What happen if the sprites used in their hacks are thru google search and it was hosted on someone else website, not the sprite owner.

The person who search is not being informed of who that current sprite belongs to... so are you going to say this person a thief too?

PS: Whoever replied next... please avoid saying it's stealing and without reason why you said that. Please, if you want to post "IT STEALING!"... then please look yourself in the mirror, cause you're a 'ROM' hacker. Rom is illegal... got it?

 

[Aljam]

Here's another situation that needs to debate.
What happen if the sprites used in their hacks are thru google search and it was hosted on someone else website, not the sprite owner.

The person who search is not being informed of who that current sprite belongs to... so are you going to say this person a thief too?

PS: Whoever replied next... please avoid saying it's stealing and without reason why you said that. Please, if you want to post "IT STEALING!"... then please look yourself in the mirror, cause you're a 'ROM' hacker. Rom is illegal... got it?

i wouldnt really say that would be stealing but it could be. the one thing that really makes me mad though is when you search for sprites and somebody justs rips ows or trainersprites or whatever from FR R S E, puts it into a sprite sheet and asks to give credit(look on spriters resource). I mean come on people why give credit to somebody who is just ripping sprites off the actual game and putting it on a sprite sheet for everyone to see0. anyone can do it

 

[Goldie]

I would only use someone elses stuff if I was just going to keep my ROM hack to myself, only I would be playing the hack, and I wouldnt post it up here.