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Religion and God

Caaethil

#1 Greninja Fan
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  • To get a little deeper on the subject of my personal beliefs, I grew up in a Christian home. I went through a period in time where I believed that there was a higher power that created everything, but 'stepped away' after that if you will. After having a few personal experiences during that period in time that I felt like was God revealing his existence to me in a sense, I have gone back to believing in some of the basics of Christianity.

    But, I also believe in reincarnation because there are scriptures that I believe refer to reincarnation (I have a couple of links to an interesting forum post and an article on that if anyone's interested), and a few other things that are generally not accepted by most Christian denominations and sects.
    Can I ask what drew you specifically to Christianity and Christian scripture?

    So I don't know if I could call myself a Christian at this point or not. I mean, some things just don't make sense to me. For example, why would people be born with what we consider 'psychic' abilities (and if you don't believe people are born with such abilities, or don't believe in God/a god, look at this question hypothetically) if God didn't want people dabbling in the 'occult'? Why wouldn't that be considered a spiritual gift instead of occult practice? This may be on the edge of conspiracy--but my personal answer to this question is because those who put the 'canon' Bible together wanted people to stay ignorant and didn't want people to expand on their God given (or natural if you do not believe in God/a god) abilities.
    Probably for the exact same reason we have cancer, down syndrome, dementia and just about any cause of death which is needlessly painful and elongated. That is to say, if you have a reason for them existing (i.e. Satan), it's probably the same for the occult. I, on the other hand, would put it down to God not existing at all.

    Can I ask what motivation people would have to stop people expanding on God given abilities? Would they not be punished in the afterlife for such deceit?

    Another thing that I often think about is, how do we know all books that were included in the canon Bible are God-inspired as Christians say, but those that are not included are not? Especially considering that MAN put the canon Bible together. But anyway, the way that I read the Bible because of these thoughts that I have is, I read and then pray about it. I also take a good bit of the Bible as metaphorical rather than literal, and I also see it as guidance for a Christian life, not necessarily the end all be all. I also think that when reading certain books of the Bible, the context, time it was written (if there is an estimated time available for that specific book), and who it was addressed to needs to be taken into consideration a lot more than it actually is. I am well aware that none of this really lines up with 'normal' Christian beliefs but I guess that's the beauty of individuality and all of us having our own minds, thoughts and experiences. Maybe I'm more spiritual than anything else at this point.

    So anyway, I just wanted to give some more input. I'm open for discussion and insight.
    This is interesting. I'm a little confused as to what has made you consider yourself Christian at all, and what convinced you to accept any of the Bible when you doubt so much of it. I don't understand the motivation.

    This is purely out of curiosity, I'm not trying to convert you to atheism or anything.
     
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    Can I ask what drew you specifically to Christianity and Christian scripture? 1


    Probably for the exact same reason we have cancer, down syndrome, dementia and just about any cause of death which is needlessly painful and elongated. That is to say, if you have a reason for them existing (i.e. Satan), it's probably the same for the occult. I, on the other hand, would put it down to God not existing at all.

    Can I ask what motivation people would have to stop people expanding on God given abilities? Would they not be punished in the afterlife for such deceit? 2

    This is interesting. I'm a little confused as to what has made you consider yourself Christian at all, and what convinced you to accept any of the Bible when you doubt so much of it. I don't understand the motivation. 3

    This is purely out of curiosity, I'm not trying to convert you to atheism or anything.

    1) As I stated before, I grew up in a Christian home, but my parents weren't very 'strict' about it with my brother and I. They were and still are firm believers, but they didn't want to push it down our throats. We were made to go to church when they went up until I was 12 and my brother was 11, then we were given a choice on whether to stay home or not (we didn't have a choice up unto this point because we couldn't legally stay home by ourselves in our state until one of us was 12) Looking into other religions and being curious wasn't looked down upon. So as I got older and became interested in other belief systems and other religions, nothing other than Christian doctrine appealed to me. But, the biggest thing that draws me specifically to Christianity is the trinity. I have had encounters that I believe to be with the Christian God, or at least, the simplest description of the Christian God (God is love). I also believe that Jesus was a real man that performed miracles. And I do believe that there is a piece of him that lives inside each and every person (the Holy Spirit), me included.

    2) The thing that always makes me laugh about today's Christians, and even Catholics, is that Jesus says at some point in the Bible (I'll have to look up the exact verse for reference) that everything he did, we can do. So the miracles he performed and whatnot are doable today, but if someone were to ever do the things he did, Christians would scream "OCCULT!".

    But to answer your question, maybe wanting people to continuously fear death and the after life to keep them dependent on the church, giving the church money, etc., so that the church could stay in a fairly big position of power. Because I think that's what a lot of churches, Christian and Catholic alike, were back when the canon Bible was put together and still is today. But, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this topic.

    3) This goes back to my personal experiences with what I believe to be God. This may sound silly, but the few encounters I've had have felt like nothing but warmth and love, which is the simplest description of God in Christian doctrine. I have confirmed this for myself through praying about it. Every single time I do, I get the answer 'God is love' in some way, shape or form. I had an experience once when I first started questioning the Bible a lot, probably the one that I hold onto the most. I prayed about it and asked God to show me what he is. Didn't really think anything about it after that prayer because I didn't think there was any way possible that I would get an answer without looking at the Bible that I was questioning like many Christians advised me to do.

    The next day, I was at a Bruster's (ice cream shop) with my boyfriend (who is now my husband) eating our ice cream outside on their patio area. This woman who looked to be middle aged was seemed like she was intently staring at me. I thought maybe she was staring behind me, maybe looking for a car of a family member or friend that was supposed to join her. After a few moments, I mentioned it to my boyfriend and he looked over and confirmed that she was staring at me. After we both looked over at her, she got up and started walking over. She was smiling at us at that point and asked to sit.

    I asked her why she was staring at me. And then she proceeded to tell me about several things that were slated to happen in my life. I had always been a big skeptic of that kind of thing and so had my boyfriend. He was starting to laugh at her, and then she began talking about things that she would have no way of knowing. Like my talents, my life situation (I was 8 weeks pregnant at the time but I wasn't showing and we hadn't talked about any of this at the shop), and what I wanted to go to school for. She told me I was going to have a little girl, then a little boy, and another little boy. So far I have two children, one girl and one boy. She also said that I would end up deciding against going to school for nursing, which I did eventually, because it wasn't what I really wanted to do, it was what my parents wanted me to do (also no way of knowing that). We talked with her for an hour.

    Afterword, she gave me her phone number and told us that she was a Christian medium, and that the Holy Spirit urged her to talk to me because I was going through a period of doubt. She told me to come see her after I had my daughter, free of charge because she had such a strong connection to my spirit, as if something was telling her that she was my guide in that time when I needed guidance. I didn't, and I still haven't gone to see her. So many people told me and my husband that what happened was 'of the devil' and that 'there is no such thing as a Christian medium/psychic' etc. His grandparents (they're catholic) told us to denounce everything that woman told us and all sorts of crazy crap.

    But to be honest there is literally NO way in hell that woman would've known all of that about me or would've been able to predict several things about my life and my husbands lives unless someone or something told her. So, the moral of that story for me was, God was showing me that he is everywhere and he lives in every one of us. And he has the ability to tell people about others that they've never met if he chooses to, to offer comfort.

    I know that it's pretty unbelievable, and that goes back to what I said in my first post about experiences. If you didn't experience it the same way I did, or didn't experience it at all, I don't expect you or anyone else to believe it. It is something my husband and I still talk about to this day and how strange it is that she has been right about literally everything that has happened in our lives so far. He has her phone number and has called her, but every time he does, she insists that we come see her and I don't know that I want to go yet because of all of the doubt I'm experiencing. It feels like even after that experience and knowing without a doubt that God is real and that there is a piece of him living in every one of us, I still have doubts. Not about him necessarily, but about the Bible. Because men wrote it and men put it together, and men aren't perfect. So how could we expect something they created to be? So to answer your question, that's why I (loosely) consider myself a Christian. Even if it wasn't the 'Christian' God so to speak, I know that a higher power was involved in that experience.

    I know not everyone believes in things like this (understandably so, because there are probably four or five times as many BS psychics/mediums/tarot card readers/whatever else as there are actually gifted ones), so keep in mind I'm not saying this experience should be hardcore proof of God or a higher power or anything for anyone other than myself and my husband because we were the ones who experienced it. I despise when people try to push their beliefs on me and would never want others to think I was trying to do it to them.

    I didn't think you were trying to convert me, btw :) Even if I didn't consider myself Christian, I don't know that I could necessarily consider myself atheist after having that experience.
     
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    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
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  • 1) As I stated before, I grew up in a Christian home, but my parents weren't very 'strict' about it with my brother and I. They were and still are firm believers, but they didn't want to push it down our throats. We were made to go to church when they went up until I was 12 and my brother was 11, then we were given a choice on whether to stay home or not (we didn't have a choice up unto this point because we couldn't legally stay home by ourselves in our state until one of us was 12) Looking into other religions and being curious wasn't looked down upon. So as I got older and became interested in other belief systems and other religions, nothing other than Christian doctrine appealed to me. But, the biggest thing that draws me specifically to Christianity is the trinity. I have had encounters that I believe to be with the Christian God, or at least, the simplest description of the Christian God (God is love). I also believe that Jesus was a real man that performed miracles. And I do believe that there is a piece of him that lives inside each and every person (the Holy Spirit), me included.
    When I look at holy books, I just see very old books written by people a very long time ago. If there is a God, it seems incredibly unlikely - near impossible - that the God just so happens to be one of the ones in those old books. God is love is an incredibly simple description, and even if we suppose that we can recognise that, it is very hard for me to accept that the natural conclusion of that is that the Christian God is real. I can't say anything about you believing in Jesus' miracles because I don't know why you believe those things. I can accept people believing in a God, I find it incredibly difficult to accept organised religion because it seems so incredibly unlikely to me that one of those Gods is real. Oh well.

    2) The thing that always makes me laugh about today's Christians, and even Catholics, is that Jesus says at some point in the Bible (I'll have to look up the exact verse for reference) that everything he did, we can do. So the miracles he performed and whatnot are doable today, but if someone were to ever do the things he did, Christians would scream "OCCULT!".
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." - John 14, King James version.

    It's a bit hard to tell what is meant by this line. I sort of doubt he was talking about walking on water and all of that jazz.

    But to answer your question, maybe wanting people to continuously fear death and the after life to keep them dependent on the church, giving the church money, etc., so that the church could stay in a fairly big position of power. Because I think that's what a lot of churches, Christian and Catholic alike, were back when the canon Bible was put together and still is today. But, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this topic.
    I believe that is absolutely what the church wanted, it just makes much more sense to me to draw the conclusion that that is the whole reason the church ever existed in the first place. I think if the 'occult' existed we'd be seeing it. No, I don't count the incredibly vague 'psychics'.

    3) This goes back to my personal experiences with what I believe to be God. This may sound silly, but the few encounters I've had have felt like nothing but warmth and love, which is the simplest description of God in Christian doctrine. I have confirmed this for myself through praying about it. Every single time I do, I get the answer 'God is love' in some way, shape or form. I had an experience once when I first started questioning the Bible a lot, probably the one that I hold onto the most. I prayed about it and asked God to show me what he is. Didn't really think anything about it after that prayer because I didn't think there was any way possible that I would get an answer without looking at the Bible that I was questioning like many Christians advised me to do.
    I never really understood personal experiences. I don't know if Christians just think us atheists are cold husks without any of this warmth and love, but I can guarantee you I know what you're talking about and it just seems silly to me to take that to mean God exists or that praying is the method by which we experience these things. I would need to know more about your experiences to make a fair judgement, though. The brain is very good at making you think what you want to think. I'd guess it's a sort of placebo effect.

    The next day, I was at a Bruster's (ice cream shop) with my boyfriend (who is now my husband) eating our ice cream outside on their patio area. This woman who looked to be middle aged was seemed like she was intently staring at me. I thought maybe she was staring behind me, maybe looking for a car of a family member or friend that was supposed to join her. After a few moments, I mentioned it to my boyfriend and he looked over and confirmed that she was staring at me. After we both looked over at her, she got up and started walking over. She was smiling at us at that point and asked to sit.

    I asked her why she was staring at me. And then she proceeded to tell me about several things that were slated to happen in my life. I had always been a big skeptic of that kind of thing and so had my boyfriend. He was starting to laugh at her, and then she began talking about things that she would have no way of knowing. Like my talents, my life situation (I was 8 weeks pregnant at the time but I wasn't showing and we hadn't talked about any of this at the shop), and what I wanted to go to school for. She told me I was going to have a little girl, then a little boy, and another little boy. So far I have two children, one girl and one boy. She also said that I would end up deciding against going to school for nursing, which I did eventually, because it wasn't what I really wanted to do, it was what my parents wanted me to do (also no way of knowing that). We talked with her for an hour.

    Afterword, she gave me her phone number and told us that she was a Christian medium, and that the Holy Spirit urged her to talk to me because I was going through a period of doubt. She told me to come see her after I had my daughter, free of charge because she had such a strong connection to my spirit, as if something was telling her that she was my guide in that time when I needed guidance. I didn't, and I still haven't gone to see her. So many people told me and my husband that what happened was 'of the devil' and that 'there is no such thing as a Christian medium/psychic' etc. His grandparents (they're catholic) told us to denounce everything that woman told us and all sorts of crazy crap.
    To be 100% honest, his grandparents telling you to denounce everything that woman told you is the only thing in this story which isn't crazy crap, in my eyes.

    But to be honest there is literally NO way in hell that woman would've known all of that about me or would've been able to predict several things about my life and my husbands lives unless someone or something told her. So, the moral of that story for me was, God was showing me that he is everywhere and he lives in every one of us.
    She could have guessed? She could have been doing that same thing every day for months and have gotten it wrong every day until she met you. Not that far-fetched really.

    And he has the ability to tell people about others that they've never met if he chooses to, to offer comfort.
    Real talk, telling a complete stranger everything about me that they shouldn't be able to know is one of the least comforting things you could possibly do.

    I know that it's pretty unbelievable, and that goes back to what I said in my first post about experiences. If you didn't experience it the same way I did, or didn't experience it at all, I don't expect you or anyone else to believe it.
    I have fully accepted your story as true and wouldn't believe it even if I did experience it.

    It is something my husband and I still talk about to this day and how strange it is that she has been right about literally everything that has happened in our lives so far. He has her phone number and has called her, but every time he does, she insists that we come see her and I don't know that I want to go yet because of all of the doubt I'm experiencing. It feels like even after that experience and knowing without a doubt that God is real and that there is a piece of him living in every one of us, I still have doubts. Not about him necessarily, but about the Bible. Because men wrote it and men put it together, and men aren't perfect. So how could we expect something they created to be?
    My honest answer is you can't and you shouldn't. It is incredibly dangerous to do so.

    So to answer your question, that's why I (loosely) consider myself a Christian. Even if it wasn't the 'Christian' God so to speak, I know that a higher power was involved in that experience.
    I'm still struggling to grasp how you go from that to the Christian God specifically. I look at the Bible and all I see is a dusty old book written a long time ago, with stories ripped off from other books (Noah's Ark being the notable example).

    I didn't think you were trying to convert me, btw :) Even if I didn't consider myself Christian, I don't know that I could necessarily consider myself atheist after having that experience.
    Absolutely, that's quite clear.
     
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    When I look at holy books, I just see very old books written by people a very long time ago. If there is a God, it seems incredibly unlikely - near impossible - that the God just so happens to be one of the ones in those old books. God is love is an incredibly simple description, and even if we suppose that we can recognise that, it is very hard for me to accept that the natural conclusion of that is that the Christian God is real. I can't say anything about you believing in Jesus' miracles because I don't know why you believe those things. I can accept people believing in a God, I find it incredibly difficult to accept organised religion because it seems so incredibly unlikely to me that one of those Gods is real. Oh well.

    I believe at some point I said I could be wrong about which God it is I believe I have come in contact with. If I did not say that in a past post, let me go ahead and say that now. There is no way of proving it 100% fact either way, so I guess I'll find out when I pass on.



    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." - John 14, King James version.

    It's a bit hard to tell what is meant by this line. I sort of doubt he was talking about walking on water and all of that jazz.

    I doubt he was talking about walking on water as well, but I'm talking more so about healings and whatnot. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to walk into a church and see a blind man, and tell the people of that church I could heal him they would either a) not believe me at all or b) say it was of the devil if I somehow managed to heal him. My question to Christians is, why? If We can do the things that Jesus did, why is me doing what he did of the devil? Because the majority of Christians I have come in contact with are hypocrites and think it could've only happened in Biblical times.


    I believe that is absolutely what the church wanted, it just makes much more sense to me to draw the conclusion that that is the whole reason the church ever existed in the first place. I think if the 'occult' existed we'd be seeing it. No, I don't count the incredibly vague 'psychics'.

    This is part of the reason I no longer attend church, and never will again. Church, biblically speaking, is not a building. It's the people that congregate in the building that make the church. So, to me, the fact that we have mega churches and millionaire pastors (I'm not talking about pastors who are millionaires through some other means, just pastors who are millionaires because they are the pastor of a huge church) is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. Tithing is also taken out of context. Churches claim tithing is a requirement. It is not. Churches also claim that your 10% HAS to go to them. That is also a gross misinterpretation. But that's a separate topic from the conversation we are currently having (we can talk about that if you like, since I think that would still be considered on topic).

    Not all are incredibly vague, some can be very, very specific such as the one I came in contact with.



    I never really understood personal experiences. I don't know if Christians just think us atheists are cold husks without any of this warmth and love, but I can guarantee you I know what you're talking about and it just seems silly to me to take that to mean God exists or that praying is the method by which we experience these things. I would need to know more about your experiences to make a fair judgement, though. The brain is very good at making you think what you want to think. I'd guess it's a sort of placebo effect.

    I am not someone who thinks that atheists are 'cold husks without any warmth or love', or that atheists have no moral compass as some Christians say. I think atheists are people who experience many of the same things we do, even spiritually speaking, we all just interpret it differently. That's the beauty of individuality :)




    To be 100% honest, his grandparents telling you to denounce everything that woman told you is the only thing in this story which isn't crazy crap, in my eyes.


    She could have guessed? She could have been doing that same thing every day for months and have gotten it wrong every day until she met you. Not that far-fetched really.

    When talking to me about my current life situation and me not wanting to go to school for nursing, she named my mother by her first name. My mom's name isn't particularly common (Lynnette), but you're right, she could've guessed. I don't feel as if she did though. It would take a lot for her to guess as many things as she did, but things such as telling me I'd have three kids, and the gender of those kids could've been guesses. Knowing my mom's name could've been a very, very lucky guess.


    Real talk, telling a complete stranger everything about me that they shouldn't be able to know is one of the least comforting things you could possibly do.

    It was comforting to me because I asked for it.


    I have fully accepted your story as true and wouldn't believe it even if I did experience it.

    My honest answer is you can't and you shouldn't. It is incredibly dangerous to do so.

    Touche.


    I'm still struggling to grasp how you go from that to the Christian God specifically. I look at the Bible and all I see is a dusty old book written a long time ago, with stories ripped off from other books (Noah's Ark being the notable example).

    Again, it goes back to the description and the fact that I believe a piece of him lives in every one of us. I'm sure there are other religions/other parts of spirituality that say the higher power is love and love lives in every one of us but I haven't done much research on it as of yet. I will update once I have if this thread is still going. Maybe there is a different religion that aligns with my beliefs better, but I have yet to find it. I've been doing a lot of research into reincarnation, chakras, etc. recently so I honestly haven't given much thought to giving a name to my beliefs until I sat down to write out my first post in this thread. I know, that's pretty silly and somewhat ignorant. The more and more I talk about it, the less and less I want to put my beliefs into a 'religion' and instead just chalk it up to my personal spirituality. Christianity is pretty specific and my beliefs are rather broad.
     
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  • Anyone who think religion is a choice is oversimplifying identity-choice construction. Religious ideology and identity is formed from social and political institutions -- we are DISCIPLINED into being Christians, Muslims, ect. Though, some religions are less monolithic and omnipresent in at least American society, i.e. Buddhism. In that case there is some choice for non-monolithic religions that do not have a history of bloodshed and intolerance.

    Christianity is built into American legal, political, and social structures. It defines our consciousness even without our consent. Children, who eventually become adults, do not have any sense of autonomy and choice. That is why identity politics deprive us of reason and self-creation; they rely upon dogmas, stereotypes, and other forms of group mentality (hive-mind mentalities). Currently, if you are atheist or agnostic, you are tyrannized by religiosity -- in many ways we practice ethnic monotheistic religious tenets in the law without a choice to resist them fully. Rather than freedom of religion, individuals need freedom FROM religion -- not necessarily other forms of spirituality that are not fixed monolithic institutions. In that sense, religious people are also tyrannized, but unknowingly so (can I say false-consciousness).

    Likewise, in the US, racial hierarchy cannot be escaped. We also cannot be non-racist since "racing" is a part of consciousness. That is to say, we cannot escape terms that are politically constructed historically, such as "white" and "black"-- "racing". Though, we can resist this terminology, (A) we must not be colorblind to society that IS racist, otherwise we get the AllLivesMatter mentality (B) we cannot completely purge our minds of making racial distinctions, but we can try to blur lines, converse with other people, gain inter-subjective knowledge to dismiss stereotypes, and humanize "othered" individuals. Essentially we can progress toward deracialization and play a role in that pursuit.

    Essentially, race and religious identity are sociopolitical mythologies that reinforces an us vs. them mentality rather than allow for individuals to freely be themselves in a society of other people who are free to be themselves. in such a society reason, or mutual-recognition, is possible. In such a society, democracy would actually be democracy since voters would have their own consciousness and be able to collaborate with a greater diversity of individuals.

    Though, religiosity needs to continue to go away. Radical Judaism, Radical Islam, and especially Radical Christianity; there is not such thing as non-radical forms of monolithic and tyrannizing ideologies - period.
     
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    A while ago I had the theory, that the existance of a god implies that there's an instance in the universe, that could act completely random. Our world adheres to a certain ruleset, which basically boils down, that everything in the world depends on everything else in the same world. That pretty much removes any sort of randomness. Though, it's still so complicated, that people are incapable of understanding, so they just call it random, anyway.

    A world that is incapable of true randomness and a being that is capable of randomness don't really fit well together. That means, either said being lives completely outside of our world, which means it refrains from influencing anything that's going on here, or it does still try to influence. The latter is especially scary when you make yourself aware, that it opens up the option for Earth to randomly explode overnight, because said being decided to change something about the rules of our world.

    At the same time, I think it's alright if people believe in a higher being. The only thing I expect them to do, is understand what their religion is all about. Accepting all the good and bad actions their religion has made in past and present and trying to use their believe in a positive way, is alright.

    I can also not see myself believing in religion any time soon. I'm one of those "P=NP returns true"-people. {XD}
     
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    • Do you believe in a God?
    • Should people believe in a God?
    • Do you think there is evidence of God?
    • Is religion good?
    • Does religion have anything of value to offer to society?
    • Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society
    I will try to answer (give my opinion to) theses questions in order.
    1. I consider my self a agnostic so for lack of a better answer what that means to me is I need more evidence until I say either or.
    2. People should be able to believe in whatever they please as long as thay don't violate others rights to do so at the same time I.E. use government action to force ones believes (like banning gay marriage or abortion) on others or forceably detain or harass others until they believe.
    3. Not enough to convince me however, everyone's mileage varys on this topic. Scientifically however, no there is not enough evidence to say.
    4. It can be however, as with any good meaning ideology, it can be twisted for bad.
    5/6.It does! It can offer a sense of community for the disenfranchised and congregations are often very charitable to the less fortunate.

    Besides these reasons I feel that religion makes this world more entertaining and interesting. The question "should we have religion" is a one question fraught with controversy but is ultimately a matter of personal choice and never should be up to a government. If a person uses religion as a justification for a crime we have laws that can and do deal with them and policing wrong think is a dangerously slippery slope.
     
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