Chit-Chat: ROM Hacking Daily Chit Chat

[tudou]

(I'm not entirely sure if I should post this here, but it's the closest thread that matches with what I wanna ask.)

A couple years ago, I was nuzlocking an FR hack that I can't remember the name of. The main details I can remember are:
- May as an additional rival, first introduced in Pewter City.
- All gym leaders have 6 Pokemon; Brock had levels 15-17.
- In my room, there was a "life-sized doll" that gave me running shoes.
- A little bit of cursing. Only time I can remember cursing is when I talked with my mom as I was leaving the house.
- I ran it through a randomizer and got Deino as a starter, so there were some Gen5 Pokemon.

These are the main details I can remember from the ROM. If anyone knows which ROM this is/a similar ROM, please let me know. Thanks. :)

You are talking about Alt Evos, I think.

 

[JustSomePerson]

You are talking about Alt Evos, I think.

I think that's it. Just looked it up, and there were some similarities. Thanks!

 

[Blah]

Hey guys, I thought I'd make a ROM hacking wish list of sorts. Things that I'd like to see the community develop\got through in the near future. Also, I haven't ranted all day and needed to say something to make the day feel better!

1) Open source, community dev driven script editor

I've ranted about this before, but the current script editors are either lacking in documentation, popularity, bugs, testing or all four. We need a script editor which supports expansion, and allows for modification of documentation. When I say this, I imagine a file containing the indexed commands and their documentation. Maybe a thread on PC will be fine as well. I want to see people making new scripting commands, and updating our script editor together. Currently XSE's command help (even though 70% of that is incorrect), note editor, text adjuster I like, along with PKSV's script generator, movement helper and text colouring. We can make a community driven guide and start to popularize said script editor, because the current ones are very much outdated, have bugs and most people writing tutorials for them are as clueless as can be. I literally see them spreading ******** about commands and usage about stuff they know nothing about. I don't think it's worth it to update PKSV or XSE since both need a rather large overhaul and I think most devs prefer a better programming language to write the script editor in. Please lets make this happen, pretty please!

To a slightly smaller degree, a new map editor which isn't buggy and I didn't have to expand in a hex editor would be nice too (one that's going to be developed for longer than Meh :P).


2) Graphics scripting

Touched and I are planning to write a graphics script engine and editor. Basically the idea is you'll be able to do complicated graphics, which you'd only have been able to do in ASM/C using a style similar to standard scripting. Something like this:

createBG 0ximage 0xtilemap  0xpal
showBG 0x1

Is all you'd need to show an image, like the diploma screen. We haven't actually started, and we'd have to write our own commands by hand, but it's a project that I'm looking forward to starting!


3) Better indexing of discoveries/progression

The search feature is pretty bad, lets be honest. If you wanted to find something on this forum, you'd use google with the "site:" argument rather than the forum's built-in search. I saw a project that was started some ages ago about properly documenting everything we know about ROM hacking. I've seen a lot of people re-researching and rewriting things that have already been done (I don't mean improving, I mean just redo-ing for no apparent reason). It's a waste of time for our devs/researchers to be doing the same thing over and over again because we couldn't find the old research. Can someone with time, go back and create an easy to index list of things we've discovered. Much like the first post of the Quick research thread, except more generic links which break into more specific ones as you dive deeper. Something like this I imagine:

Topics:
	
	Overworld [Indexed by Generation maybe]
		- Terms and general documentations ("What is")
		- Overworld editing
			- Editing OWs
				- Tools : NSE, Rebirth
				- Replacing OWs
				- Changing the player's OW
				- Delinking OW pals
				- OW tables research
					- Pal table FR/EM
					- Image table FR/EM
			- Adding more OWs
				- OW expansion tutorial
					- Relevant research
				- OW adding frames tutorial
					- Relevant research

	Mapping
		- You get the picture.

We need to better index and archive our discoveries basically. The other day someone was researching field moves. I've documented and researched that ages ago, it really opened my eyes as to how badly we'd need this in the future when we get more information.


4) Spread only the truth

Can we stop having people replying to posts in the beginners lounge or elsewhere with false information that they think is true. The spreading of misinformation and guess work is totally bizarre. You're not obligated to answer any questions you don't know about. What creates the urge to reply with an answer to someone's question with false/unbacked up claims presented as though they're genuine facts. Please, for the love of everything this world has to offer, don't go around teaching people things you know nothing about. This goes to tutorial writers as well. If you don't know what you're teaching about, feel free to just talk about the areas you know. Don't feel pressured to make up lies of the data you're presenting. If you're unsure what a table is doing, but you need to repoint it inorder for your tutorial to work, just say "repoint this table. I'm unsure what it is, but it seems to be related". Don't say, "This is the Overworld formatter table, it's so the game knows what to format the overworlds like" or some other wild explanation which you've guessed up without research.

We're all guilty of making up things to explain things we know nothing about. But it really does impact the newcomers, tool developers and readers of your tutorial. We're all assuming you know what you're talking about since you're writing a tutorial. So please, when writing a tutorial or a post to help someone, only spread facts.


5) Monoplatform

Alright, the entire world is going to hate me for this. Can all the Gen 3 hackers please hack the same game, lol. Why are we splitting out research\dev efforts working on so many different games? 50% is hacking FR, 35% is hacking EM, and 15% is hacking random games like R/S and LG. I realize you like your own version because it holds a special place in your heart, but I think it's best for progression if we all hacked the same version. After we've documented the whole ROM of a specific version, we can go off and port things to the other versions. I'm mostly talking to the developers of ASM, BS and other similar fields. We haven't even finished documenting FR, we've got something like 50% documented thanks to Knizz's efforts. I know it's not going to happen, but hey, this is a wishlist :P

Also something like a thread for merging/contributing to an IDB would be nice and useful.


6) Tool writers stop being so secretive

I absolutely detest tools like "Intro editor" and "Start map chooser advance" and all of those tools which hold extremely small functions which are literally just small bite changes in the ROM. I think it should be standardized that the tools/tool creators present their research/findings in the appropriate tools thread. That way I don't have to download your tool to change 2 bytes in the ROM. It's helping no one, and it'd be nice for us researchers to know about the areas your tool is writing to. If your tool is showing an image, I want the tool to also show the image offset and the address of any related data. Imagine if all hack tools showed the address of the data they were editing. We'd all be so happy, and it'd be useful for future tool developers to dev new tools when you've left the community.

 

[Touched]

Hey guys, I thought I'd make a ROM hacking wish list of sorts

I have one small addition to make, and that is I wish people would stop talking about "compiling" ASM, as it is assembled.

 

[Blah]

I have one small addition to make, and that is I wish people would stop talking about "compiling" ASM, as it is assembled.

Anyways Touched, since you're here, I should suggest you write a tutorial about setting up a C dev environment. It would save us the time of having to write and compile our ASM routines and inserting them.

 

[Touched]

Anyways Touched, since you're here, I should suggest you write a tutorial about setting up a C dev environment. It would save us the time of having to write and compile our ASM routines and inserting them.

You're doing that just to hurt my feelings aren't you.
Well, in that case, I can make a tutorial that requires Linux!

 

[Oloolooloo!]

IRC Beginner's Lounge chatroom

How about an IRC channel for quick Q&A and detailed support? That way we don't have to spend days going back-and-forth trying to solve a problem through forum posts. In theory, an IRC channel would allow quicker response times and more detailed support.

If moderators allow, I could make an IRC channel for Pokecommunity's Beginner Lounge. Largest foreseeable pitfall would be attendance. Couldn't hurt to try. Anyone interested?

 

[Touched]

How about an IRC channel for quick Q&A and detailed support? That way we don't have to spend days going back-and-forth trying to solve a problem through forum posts. In theory, an IRC channel would allow quicker response times and more detailed support.

If moderators allow, I could make an IRC channel for Pokecommunity's Beginner Lounge. Largest foreseeable pitfall would be attendance. Couldn't hurt to try. Anyone interested?

We already have like 2 Pokemon ROM hacking IRC channels, one on Rizon, and another on a private server. I don't see much value in a beginner's lounge channel though, because it would just compound the problem of repeated questions. Logs are harder to search through. At least forum posts can be search engine indexed which allows people who are capable of using google to find the information they need. An IRC channel would just be "Hw duz I inzert tylz pl0z?!".

However, I'm personally for if it's just a medium for people to ask specific questions that can't be answered with a cursory google search (i.e. "I don't understand part y in tutorial x, can anyone help?") and it is well moderated to prevent people asking stupid questions. Maybe the "difficulty" of joining the channel is enough to filter such people out, but I suppose that is just wishful thinking.

 

[Blah]

However, I'm personally for if it's just a medium for people to ask specific questions that can't be answered with a cursory google search (i.e. "I don't understand part y in tutorial x, can anyone help?") and it is well moderated to prevent people asking stupid questions. Maybe the "difficulty" of joining the channel is enough to filter such people out, but I suppose that is just wishful thinking.

At that point, they should just make a thread. I fail to see what's wrong with asking in the quick questions thread though. People just don't have the patience to wait for someone to answer their questions. The amount of time you'd need to wait before getting your question answered isn't even that long, people like myself, and many others frequent the beginner's lounge and answer people's questions very frequently.

Most of their questions are just really fast 5-10 word answers, many which (imo) don't warrant a thread. I feel like people are posting questions and threads without taking the effort to see if their question had been asked before. I'm wondering if the thread creation post limit in the beginner's lounge is even active, maybe it should be increased a little more, just for that section. If the section was designed to be a giant Q/A zone, then it fullfills that quite well, in which case, the entire section should just be replaced by a thread. Right now that's all it really is, oh and that one random thread which is actually someone trying to make a hack and seeking for input.

Also, if you make an IIRC dedicated for questions, I feel like people will abuse the helpers. I can see as time goes by, people start asking for specific help on their hack ect. It's easy to rely too much on a helping hand being available. Some things are better off learned and discovered in self study rather than just having the answer handed to you. Especially since we're called ROM hackers, which implies we actually aren't just being spoon fed answers from the great beyond, it's pretty standard to expect we do some self-research. Not to mention, in an IIRC setting, you can and will get spammed more often than not via PM and by the local chat. Those ping spams are annoying X_X

 

[Oloolooloo!]

At that point, they should just make a thread. I fail to see what's wrong with asking in the quick questions thread though. People just don't have the patience to wait for someone to answer their questions. The amount of time you'd need to wait before getting your question answered isn't even that long, people like myself, and many others frequent the beginner's lounge and answer people's questions very frequently.

I'm not saying that we don't already have people helping. If that were the case, I'd be asking for more helpers. I'm thinking that an instant message client would be a lot more efficient.

At that point, they should just make a thread. I fail to see what's wrong with asking in the quick questions thread though.

The wait times. To others, 30 minutes can be a lot of time. Every minute lost can demotivate a potential hacker. Answers can't always be accessed the moment they're posted as well. With an instant message client, you can be sure your recipient is there and waiting.

Most of their questions are just really fast 5-10 word answers, many which (imo) don't warrant a thread.

Which makes it all the more frustrating when you have to wait overnight or get your question ignored.

I feel like people are posting questions and threads without taking the effort to see if their question had been asked before. Most of their questions are just really fast 5-10 word answers, many which (imo) don't warrant a thread.

And what's wrong with that? To quote the intro post to quick Q&A:

Do not demand for answers to your questions!

People to not have to answer your questions, they do it because they want to! Not only are those posts annoying, they also are completely pointless! If such a post is found, it will probably be deleted.

If someone's post is obnoxious, you're under no obligation to answer it. If someone else wants to answer the question, it's their choice.

I feel like people are posting questions and threads without taking the effort to see if their question had been asked before.

There is no such thing as a stupid question. Give newbs the benefit of the doubt. After all, how do we know they didn't spend hours searching something that's common knowledge but didn't know the exact wording?

I'm wondering if the thread creation post limit in the beginner's lounge is even active, maybe it should be increased a little more, just for that section. If the section was designed to be a giant Q/A zone, then it fullfills that quite well, in which case, the entire section should just be replaced by a thread. Right now that's all it really is, oh and that one random thread which is actually someone trying to make a hack and seeking for input.

You bring up a good point. When someone has a question, they have no idea whether it will need a quick answer or a long one. They have to guess whether it'll take one response or ten, which is pretty hard to gauge without knowing the answer. We should clarify when a question deserves a new thread.

There's something else I noticed. When people make hacks, they want to make their hack. We can criticize and review, but at the end of the day they choose if they want criticism, not us.

Also, if you make an IIRC dedicated for questions, I feel like people will abuse the helpers. I can see as time goes by, people start asking for specific help on their hack ect.

Again, helpers are under no obligation to provide help.

It's easy to rely too much on a helping hand being available. Some things are better off learned and discovered in self study rather than just having the answer handed to you. Especially since we're called ROM hackers, which implies we actually aren't just being spoon fed answers from the great beyond, it's pretty standard to expect we do some self-research.

I disagree. I don't want to be a hacker, I want to make a game! Every second someone spends finding something out on their own could be spent improving their hack. If it takes 30 minutes to figure out something versus 5 minutes split between two people, you do a lot more good depending on someone else. There is nothing wrong with being dependent on others if both parties consent and are capable of decision making.

Not to mention, in an IIRC setting, you can and will get spammed more often than not via PM and by the local chat. Those ping spams are annoying X_X

This is something that needs to be tested. Maybe you're right; why don't we find out?

We already have like 2 Pokemon ROM hacking IRC channels, one on Rizon, and another on a private server.

This changes everything. Can you provide links?

 

[Touched]

This changes everything. Can you provide links?

#rh on irc.linkandelda.com:6667 (more active, see my signature) or #romhacking on rizon

 

[Blah]

I'm not saying that we don't already have people helping. If that were the case, I'd be asking for more helpers. I'm thinking that an instant message client would be a lot more efficient.



The wait times. To others, 30 minutes can be a lot of time. Every minute lost can demotivate a potential hacker. Answers can't always be accessed the moment they're posted as well. With an instant message client, you can be sure your recipient is there and waiting.



Which makes it all the more frustrating when you have to wait overnight or get your question ignored.



And what's wrong with that? To quote the intro post to quick Q&A:



If someone's post is obnoxious, you're under no obligation to answer it. If someone else wants to answer the question, it's their choice.



There is no such thing as a stupid question. Give newbs the benefit of the doubt. After all, how do we know they didn't spend hours searching something that's common knowledge but didn't know the exact wording?


You bring up a good point. When someone has a question, they have no idea whether it will need a quick answer or a long one. They have to guess whether it'll take one response or ten, which is pretty hard to gauge without knowing the answer. We should clarify when a question deserves a new thread.

There's something else I noticed. When people make hacks, they want to make their hack. We can criticize and review, but at the end of the day they choose if they want criticism, not us.


Again, helpers are under no obligation to provide help.


I disagree. I don't want to be a hacker, I want to make a game! Every second someone spends finding something out on their own could be spent improving their hack. If it takes 30 minutes to figure out something versus 5 minutes split between two people, you do a lot more good depending on someone else. There is nothing wrong with being dependent on others if both parties consent and are capable of decision making.


This is something that needs to be tested. Maybe you're right; why don't we find out?



This changes everything. Can you provide links?

Woah, it's a pleasantly long love letter :D

I'm trying to say that there isn't a benefit which an IIRC can provide that a forum post can. It's not guarenteed your question will be answered immediately in the iirc, or at all. What will you do in this case? (the answer is make a forum post). Why not just make the post at the start? Just be a little patient mate, we'll get to you. Also, for those who DO actually search, the answer to their question is archived in the forums, as opposed to a much harder to search IIRC log.

There is 100% no way people are searching their questions. I can google the thread title, and probably get 10-15 hits of the same question asked before. There's no way you can argue that they searched for this, I mean, they are doing a worse job than my grandmother would if this is the case. I don't think it's fair to say, "If you don't like it, don't answer" either. I answer because I want to help, but it gets annoying when it's the same questions over an over again, with obviously no thought given to research. IIRC would just enforce bad habits in my eyes.

I'm not against you starting your IIRC channel to substitute for the beginner's lounge's functions (because that's what it's doing, pretty much). I'm just not seeing it as a fruitful endeavor, as someone who's been lurking about these forums for almost 6-7 years.

EDIT: IIRC = IRC. whoops.

 

[azurile13]

Warning - this post meanders quite a bit.

IMO, such an IRC, even if feasible, would actually be detrimental in the long term. Sure it may seem nice at the beginning for a new hackers to get instant replies to every little question that pops into their head, but it could create poor habits in that they become overly reliant on "quick answers" and don't develop the skills to do actual hacking/ problem solving. There's also a fringe benefit that on the small chance the question hasn't been asked before, the answer will now exist on pokecommunity for 0.0001% of people to search for. I know that I learn significantly more when I attempt to understand what game functions are actually doing than would be learned by being told "type abcd at 0x08123456." I realize that is ironic for me to say because I posted a question in the ASM Help thread yesterday and was literally given back multiple routines ^_^" but aaanyways, it is still something I believe.

All of that said, it can be a pain to find things on this site. I would agree with FBI's suggestion in the third point of his "rant" at the top of this page - an up to date index of research and tutorials on all things ROM hacking. We have a number of "getting started" posts, but there seems to be a drop off after that. There is a gaping hole that I, and many others, have yet to jump over between "hacking" with tools/other people's research and actual hacking such as going through code and building things for yourself. I do believe that more neatly sorted research would be immensely beneficial. I think that there is too much focus on "features" and not enough focus on documentation. For many questions, I have an easier time finding an answer by going through knizz's idb than I do searching these forums. I get that a lot of work went into that - but still - it's weird. Part of what contributes to the problem is that a lot of the tutorials and research are outdated and if you don't know what you're looking for, there's no way to really know that besides maybe the post date. I'd be willing to volunteer for the endeavor of indexing the research and tutorials on this site, but there are many topics that I'd consider myself inexperienced in, so idk :/

 

[Squeetz]

I have a question for Gen 1 & 2 hackers (gen 1 in particular).
Why do you hack these more limited, older games when everything you do there is possible in gen 3?
Because of nostalgia, or is there something you can do with these games I'm not aware of?
This question is not meant to be offensive in any way, I'm just genuinely curious.

 

[azurile13]

I have a question for Gen 1 & 2 hackers (gen 1 in particular).
Why do you hack these more limited, older games when everything you do there is possible in gen 3?
Because of nostalgia, or is there something you can do with these games I'm not aware of?
This question is not meant to be offensive in any way, I'm just genuinely curious.

They're not entirely without merit. I know if I were to use them, it would be because of the disassemblies.

 

[miksy91]

I have a question for Gen 1 & 2 hackers (gen 1 in particular).
Why do you hack these more limited, older games when everything you do there is possible in gen 3?
Because of nostalgia, or is there something you can do with these games I'm not aware of?
This question is not meant to be offensive in any way, I'm just genuinely curious.

I myself simply like gen II games the most of all generations.

But beside that, there are also other reasons behind me hacking gen II - or specifically, pokemon Silver:

1. Fast emulating and testing unlike when running GBA games,
2. Mapping is way faster with 4 tile blocks rather than putting each tile in the map as its own
3. I happened to learn rom hacking by hacking Crystal and got used to how G/S/C, but also all Gameboy games, work in general and how to hack them to add lots of neat and unique things.


And it doesn't feel like I'm missing anything that could be accomplished better in a GBA hack anyway. So yeah - these are the main reasons behind hacking Silver for me at least.

 

[Squeetz]

I myself simply like gen II games the most of all generations.

But beside that, there are also other reasons behind me hacking gen II - or specifically, pokemon Silver:

1. Fast emulating and testing unlike when running GBA games,
2. Mapping is way faster with 4 tile blocks rather than putting each tile in the map as its own
3. I happened to learn rom hacking by hacking Crystal and got used to how G/S/C, but also all Gameboy games, work in general and how to hack them to add lots of neat and unique things.


And it doesn't feel like I'm missing anything that could be accomplished better in a GBA hack anyway. So yeah - these are the main reasons behind hacking Silver for me at least.

Hmm. I see what you mean. I started learning by hacking the GBA games as gen 3 is one of my favorite gens, since my first game was LeafGreen.
I don't really mind spending more time mapping, but I guess it all comes down to preference in the end.

 

[Schattenjager1]

Electric Type E4 Member?

I'm currently working on a hack of the original Red and Blue, and have been struggling with this. I like electric types, and would like to have an electric type leader in the Elite Four.

The problem, though, is that electic types are so easily walled by ground types, and it could have the potential to be Lt. Surge all over again. The team would probably consist of Jolteon, Luxray and Electivire at least, and all of them get access to ice type moves - ice fang for Jolteon and Luxray, Ice punch for Electivire - but do you think that is enough? Is ground's immunity to electric the reason there's never been an electric type E4 member in the official games? What do you think?

I'm trying to relly think through my gym leaders and E4 and such to make the game challenging, not by overleveling them, but by making challenging teams and move sets.

 

[Christos]

I'm currently working on a hack of the original Red and Blue, and have been struggling with this. I like electric types, and would like to have an electric type leader in the Elite Four.

The problem, though, is that electic types are so easily walled by ground types, and it could have the potential to be Lt. Surge all over again. The team would probably consist of Jolteon, Luxray and Electivire at least, and all of them get access to ice type moves - ice fang for Jolteon and Luxray, Ice punch for Electivire - but do you think that is enough? Is ground's immunity to electric the reason there's never been an electric type E4 member in the official games? What do you think?

I'm trying to relly think through my gym leaders and E4 and such to make the game challenging, not by overleveling them, but by making challenging teams and move sets.

What about Eelektross or Emolga? They're both immune to ground moves. I don't think electric types are so "easily" walled by ground types, because then you'd say the same for psychic types vs dark types. As long as the Elite Four has Pokémon with different type combinations and some immune to ground moves, and a variety of move types for each, it should be fine I think.

 

[Schattenjager1]

What about Eelektross or Emolga? They're both immune to ground moves. I don't think electric types are so "easily" walled by ground types, because then you'd say the same for psychic types vs dark types. As long as the Elite Four has Pokémon with different type combinations and some immune to ground moves, and a variety of move types for each, it should be fine I think.

It's amazing I didn't even think of Eelektross, you're right, and since my game has Levitate already, anyway, it would be a shoe-in. Thanks for bringing that up. And Emolga.. yeah, maybe. It could be a good addition to bring a little bit of variety to the game, even outside of the Elite 4.