Smogon and the Pokemon Metagame

[Azire]

You can say don't play by their rules but most online battling I've found goes by Smogon rules. It's not as easy to escape as you make it sound.

Perhaps my lack of problems with most Pokémon is the fact I almost always have a Ditto on my team. It's my favorite Pokémon as you can tell from my picture and it just so happens to be great competitively.

 

[Flushed]

You can say don't play by their rules but most online battling I've found goes by Smogon rules. It's not as easy to escape as you make it sound.

Perhaps my lack of problems with most Pokémon is the fact I almost always have a Ditto on my team. It's my favorite Pokémon as you can tell from my picture and it just so happens to be great competitively.

Well just because your opponent plays by Smogon rules doesn't mean you have to. They may chastise you, but it's not really their place to, especially if it's Battle Spot.

 

[Nah]

You can say don't play by their rules but most online battling I've found goes by Smogon rules. It's not as easy to escape as you make it sound.

Perhaps my lack of problems with most Pokémon is the fact I almost always have a Ditto on my team. It's my favorite Pokémon as you can tell from my picture and it just so happens to be great competitively.

The only place that uses and enforces Smogon's rules is Pokemon Showdown (and by extension, PC's battle server). No other place I know of makes you play by Smogon's rules. If you're playing somewhere else and someone gets mad at you for not following Smogon's rules, tell 'em to ♥♥♥♥ off.

 

[Sandslash Fan]

I haven't played on a Smogon server yet, but I did have a curiosity about the logic applied. Evasion isn't allowed (Double Team, Minimize.... Sand Veil), since they don't want to pigeon-hole people into needing moves that always hit (Shock Wave, Clear Smog, Swift, etc), but everyone says to have a Pokemon that can Rapid Spin on your team.

Entry hazards are ok, but Heaven forbid that you have a Pokemon with Keen Eye or an auto-hit move; Heck even Roar phazes without fail now :)

 

[Nah]

I haven't played on a Smogon server yet, but I did have a curiosity about the logic applied. Evasion isn't allowed (Double Team, Minimize.... Sand Veil), since they don't want to pigeon-hole people into needing moves that always hit (Shock Wave, Clear Smog, Swift, etc), but everyone says to have a Pokemon that can Rapid Spin on your team.

Entry hazards are ok, but Heaven forbid that you have a Pokemon with Keen Eye or an auto-hit move; Heck even Roar phazes without fail now :)

Yeah...that's the one main issue I have with the metagame (this gen, anyway): entry hazards. They overcentralize the metagame. I really hope that sometime in the future Game Freak will nerf entry hazards...but that's unlikely. Game Freak doesn't care much about the meta.

 

[Sandslash Fan]

They nerfed weather already... maybe that means they'll take a look at entry hazards?

I didn't even know that you could "soak up" Toxic Spikes with a Poison-type Pokemon until I watched a Youtube WIFI battle. Maybe they could do something similar with Stealth Rocks... or at least give it diminishing returns.

 

[Cordova.Erick]

My Point Is , People Rage Quit Because "Supposedly" We Don't Follow The "Smogon Rule" In Battle Spot . I Understand Having A Battle With Friends & All That , There's No Competition , & Maybe That's Where Smogon Is Trying To Get , Not In Big Tournaments Like VGC & People Yell At The Host Of The Tournament Only Because His Or Her Opponent Used A Drizzle + Swift Swim Pokemon Or A Move Called "Minimize" Or "Double Team" But What They Don't Realize Is That They're Not Playing By Smogon Rules . Like About Half Of The Megas Are Banned ? What Is That ? They Didn't Banned Kangaskhan In The Past Gens. I Don't Know Why They Would Ban It Now . Yes , Is Powerful Now , But Pokemon Did That For A Reason & They Know They Can Be Countered Not Just By Super Effective Moves , But Also Pokemon Like Gengar Once Kagaskhan Mega Evolves Most Of Kangaskhan Moves Will Be Immune To Gengar & Gengar Can Take Advantage Of That.

 

[Nah]

My Point Is , People Rage Quit Because "Supposedly" We Don't Follow The "Smogon Rule" In Battle Spot . I Understand Having A Battle With Friends & All That , There's No Competition , & Maybe That's Where Smogon Is Trying To Get , Not In Big Tournaments Like VGC & People Yell At The Host Of The Tournament Only Because His Or Her Opponent Used A Drizzle + Swift Swim Pokemon Or A Move Called "Minimize" Or "Double Team" But What They Don't Realize Is That They're Not Playing By Smogon Rules .

Like I said before, if someone gets mad at someone for not following Smogon's rules in a place that does not use Smogon's rules, they should ♥♥♥♥ off.

Like About Half Of The Megas Are Banned ? What Is That ?

Only 4 megas are banned: Kangaskhan, Blaziken, Lucario, and Gengar. And they gave reasons as to why they were banned:
Blaziken: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-blaziken-and-deoxys-n.3492497/
Kangaskhan: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kangaskhanite-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3495351/
Gengar: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-gengarite.3494085/

I suggest you read these.

They Didn't Banned Kangaskhan In The Past Gens. I Don't Know Why They Would Ban It Now .

Kangaskhan was never banned in past gens becuase there was no reason to ban it. Regular Kangaskhan is not a terribly good Pokemon (and only Mega Kangsakhan is banned, not regular Kanga). Now there is reason to ban it, which the link above explains.

Yes , Is Powerful Now , But Pokemon Did That For A Reason & They Know They Can Be Countered Not Just By Super Effective Moves , But Also Pokemon Like Gengar Once Kagaskhan Mega Evolves Most Of Kangaskhan Moves Will Be Immune To Gengar & Gengar Can Take Advantage Of That.

See above Mega Kanga link. Also, Sucker Punch wrecks Gengar.

 

[NRG]

They Didn't Banned Kangaskhan In The Past Gens. I Don't Know Why They Would Ban It Now . Yes , Is Powerful Now , But Pokemon Did That For A Reason & They Know They Can Be Countered Not Just By Super Effective Moves , But Also Pokemon Like Gengar Once Kagaskhan Mega Evolves Most Of Kangaskhan Moves Will Be Immune To Gengar & Gengar Can Take Advantage Of That.

Every mega kangaskhan runs sucker punch. It's probably the most PP up'd move in 6th gen LOL

All you have to do on battlespot is send kang out first, mega and spam sucker punch, unless they spot this OP tactic at the team selection screen and send out a counter first turn.

 

[Griffinbane]

If people decide to yell at a tournament host, the tournament host can kick that person out. Did you hear about that 60 year old guy who got expelled by the tournament organizer and picked up by the cops because he was trash talking a kid?

And let me repeat myself again: If you are any kind of a competitive player, you do NOT go into a tournament without checking the rules first. You wanna rage quit? Go for it. A point for your opponent, and none for you.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. Are you trying to convince everyone to play by battle spot or VGC rules just because it's programmed into the game? You do realize that there is a free battle option on battle spot where anything goes, right? Are you trying to convince everyone on PC to play by your (aka not Smogon's) rules? What exactly are you trying to prove? Because all I'm seeing from you is "everyone needs to play battle spot rules because Smogon is unfair" with absolutely nothing to back it up. Your examples are terrible and whoever it is you're describing is not a responsible competitive player in any imagination.

As for casual players, battle spot will very likely put them off, because the rated battles are where competitive players practice while the free battles are chock-full of level 100 legendaries like Mewtwo and company. Too bad for them, go play in maison.

 

[Cordova.Erick]

Like I said before, if someone gets mad at someone for not following Smogon's rules in a place that does not use Smogon's rules, they should ♥♥♥♥ off

Well , Yess . I Agree With You On That . The Thing That Bothers Me Is That Everywhere I Go & Battle , People Just Use Smogon Pokemon & Their Rules . I Understand Smogon's Work Trying To Test Out Teams & Such To Make The Game Enjoyable . But Instead , They're Making The Game Too Restricted & A Lot Of People Follow It . People Looking For OU Battles ? Okayy , I Understand That I Can Battle OU Or Whatever Without Minimize & All That . But In A Tournament , I'm On A Different Level . I Just Don't Like People Following & Worshiping Their Rules . Some People Call Themselves "Top Battlers" But What They Don't Realize In Only In Their "Smogon Community" , Not World Wide :/

 

[Onicon]

If you use 'level' as a measurement, you will imply that Smogon is less competitive that VGC. We disagree: Despite VGC and Smogon tiers being different formats they are still both competitive in nature. It will helps if you understand the concept of metagaming. In short, you approach a battle in the sense that you can outline the possibilities your opponent has beyond what you see on the screen. This kind of thinking can be applied to multiple formats despite their difference. A good player will understand how the different rules shape the circumstance of the actions, thus a good Smogon palyer will likely do pretty well in VGC, vice versa.

Though not liking people just because they play by different rules is just silly.

 

[Layell]

Cordova you're using some flimsy logic here, and not to mention your capitalization of every word doesn't make me want to read more. I'll try to hit some of your arguments.

"When There's A VGC Tournament Hosted By The Creators Of The Pokemon Game , People Will Use All Those "OU" Pokemon In There"

The Pokemon are OU are there because they are good, that is why they are overused, they are versatile, and can respond to a variety of threats. There are however some mons that do not overlap. While the makeup of Pokemon may be similar the strategies and item combinations of OU and VGC couldn't be further apart, because there are different strategies in play that players need to respond to in both formats.

"In VGC Match Tells You , "You Like That Pokémon ? Cool , Use It ?" Smogon Is Not The Correct Way To Play Pokémon ."

Both formats have their own ban lists, this years VGC has a limit on Pokemon only found in Kalos. So no VGC isn't more fair. Smogon is ranked in viability, so that every Pokemon has its own tier. Smogon is more than OU, every tier has its own playerbase.

Banlists are ok, they help keep variety and health in the game, or at least shake things up. Based on current usage stats with 40% of all VGC teams using Rotom-W and Garchomp compared to 27% and 15% in OU you'd be hard pressed to convince me that reasonable bans don't create a more fun game.

 

[Cordova.Erick]

If you use 'level' as a measurement, you will imply that Smogon is less competitive that VGC. We disagree: Despite VGC and Smogon tiers being different formats they are still both competitive in nature. It will helps if you understand the concept of metagaming. In short, you approach a battle in the sense that you can outline the possibilities your opponent has beyond what you see on the screen. This kind of thinking can be applied to multiple formats despite their difference. A good player will understand how the different rules shape the circumstance of the actions, thus a good Smogon palyer will likely do pretty well in VGC, vice versa.

Though not liking people just because they play by different rules is just silly.

It's Not That I Really Don't Like Them . It's Just Why Use Smogon Pokemon In VGC Battles ? Smogon & VGC Are Two Different Styles To Play The Game . There's No Need To Bring Pokemon From Smogon To VGC Matches When You See People Getting Mad For Using "Banned" Pokemon . Note That Pokemon Wasn't Made For That Competitive Environment . Smogon Rules Have No Application In VGC . You Can Counter Double Team With Aerial Ace Or Faint Attack , Never Misses .

 

[Cordova.Erick]

Cordova you're using some flimsy logic here, and not to mention your capitalization of every word doesn't make me want to read more. I'll try to hit some of your arguments.

Sorry , I'm Just Used To Capitalize The First Letter Of A Word . :/

 

[Nah]

It's Not That I Really Don't Like Them . It's Just Why Use Smogon Pokemon In VGC Battles ? Smogon & VGC Are Two Different Styles To Play The Game . There's No Need To Bring Pokemon From Smogon To VGC Matches When You See People Getting Mad For Using "Banned" Pokemon . Note That Pokemon Wasn't Made For That Competitive Environment . Smogon Rules Have No Application In VGC . You Can Counter Double Team With Aerial Ace Or Faint Attack , Never Misses .

I'm not sure what you mean by "Smogon Pokemon", but yes, using Pokemon with movesets for singles in a doubles tournament doesn't make much sense. Also, Pokemon is not made for ANY competitive environment (but that doesn't stop us from trying anyway). And Aerial Ace/Feint Attack/Swift/Shock Wave are not good answers to evasion because they are somewhat weak moves and waste a moveslot that could be used for a move that covers more than just evasion.

 

[Cordova.Erick]

We're Getting Nowhere With This Debate . Besides , Those Moves That Never Miss , Their Power Is About 60 & Of Course The Accuracy Is Always Landing . But You Can Also Use Your Abilities To Do More Damage Or Use Moves Like Swords Dance For The Shadow Punch . STAB Moves Work As Well .

 

[tennisace]

It's Not That I Really Don't Like Them . It's Just Why Use Smogon Pokemon In VGC Battles ? Smogon & VGC Are Two Different Styles To Play The Game . There's No Need To Bring Pokemon From Smogon To VGC Matches When You See People Getting Mad For Using "Banned" Pokemon . Note That Pokemon Wasn't Made For That Competitive Environment . Smogon Rules Have No Application In VGC . You Can Counter Double Team With Aerial Ace Or Faint Attack , Never Misses .

You still seem to have a misunderstanding about what VGC, Smogon OU, and the "power" of Pokemon have to do with each other.

There will always be a Pokemon or a group of Pokemon that are the most effective in any given format, for a variety of reasons. It just so happens that because VGC and Smogon OU currently have roughly similar banlists (with a few notable exceptions on both sides), you see the same common Pokemon in both tiers. This isn't because Smogon is influencing VGC. It's because the Pokemon are excellent in multiple formats.

Take Talonflame for example. In Smogon OU, it excels as a fast revenge killer with the strongest priority move in the game (Gale Wings Brave Bird). In OU, you mostly see it as a Choice Band attacker with Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, U-turn, and a filler move (Will-o-Wisp or Tailwind). When you use Talonflame in VGC, its qualities that make it good in OU (Gale Wings Brave Bird) don't magically go away. The most common set in VGC for Talonflame is a Life Orb supporter, with Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Quick Guard, and Protect.

If people get mad at you for using "Smogon Pokemon" in other tiers and rage quit, just accept the free win and move on. I can guarantee people won't be rage quitting at an actual VGC competition though, since most people go to those to win prizes.

Anyway in general I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions about what Smogon is / aims to to with its tiers. You should all check out the tiering FAQ on Smogon before passing judgement on the site as a whole. I'd link it but I can't post links until I have 15 posts (which is a shame, it answers a ton of questions people are bringing up).

 

[Vrai]

tennisace asked me to post this link for him. I also completely agree with what he is saying. :o

 

[Onicon]

You are basing a lot of your arguments on assumptions. Smogon Singles and VGC are entirely different formats and when you see people using Pokemon that 'coincidentally' are also used a lot on Smogon, our first tought would be that these Pokemon simply function well in both enviroments; no magic, no ominious cult followings. It is the same game, after all. Should both of you have agreed on using VGC rules, the one complaining about the opponent infringing rules of Smogon, he is either a scrub or either of you failed to make your point clear.

The statement that Pokemon is not made for competitile play is questionable and just an opinion of yours. Either way, you cannot prevent people from approaching the game in a competitive manner the same way we won't dictate you the way to play. The inistence on the only right way to play is slightly hypocritical of you. Also, your opinion carry the unfortunately implication that VGC is not competitive in nature because you now you have dropped the 'VGC is the way to play' and the 'Pokemon is not competitive' consecutively.
And if you haven't noticed yet: Game Freaks is pretty aware of competitive Pokemon player being a big part of the fanbase and the 6th gen is heavily catered towards them.

Also, we really recommend you to drop the habit of capitalizing every single word. Do not forget: If everything is emphasized, nothing is. That, and it makes our head spin.