"Stand in the Corner until you can come out and be nice >:C"

[Mika]

As many of you know, this past April marked the 10th year anniversary of Columbine and as the new school year is well underway, this brings up the topic of things that we experience everyday in our schools as a result of such incidents. These things include stuff like metal detectors, backpack searches, drug dogs and other zero tolerance policies in schools as well as the topic of how to maintain control in the classroom and what the line is between abuse and discipline in a schoolroom setting.

Corporal punishment, by definition, is the infliction of pain or confinement as a penalty for an offense committed by a student and includes, but is not limited to, paddling, excessive time outs, including the entrapment of a child in a small enclosed dark spaces and forcing children to consume foods they would not otherwise digest. (this includes things like tobacco sauce or soap.) If this wasn't enough, after Columbine and things like it schools started implementing Zero Tolerance policies which pretty much meant that both parties in a fight, regardless of guilt receive the exact same treatment.

At the highschool I graduated from in 2008, we were told point blank if we so much as raised our arms to shield ourselves from an attack we'd receive the same punishment as our attacker. There was girl in the Iowa area who was strip searched because they thought she had tylenol on her person [they didn't find any] which was against the zero tolerance policy. Carrying a spork, in some schools, is the same as carrying a knife and brings with it the same punishment. In September of 2009, a first grader in the US was arrested for bringing a Cub Scout all-in-one cooking utensil to school.  

A few facts to remember:

• 30 states in the US have banned corporal punishment in public schools. 3 have banned it in public and private.
• Canada has completely banned corporal punishment
• Corporal punishment is often considered 'optional' and thus excuses the school from persecution because the student 'choses' to be punished in such a way

Couple questions for ya'll.

• Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?
• Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?
• What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?
• What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?
• Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?
• Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?
• Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?
• For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?

 

[Feign]

• Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?

No... A person's brain is known to stop developing after the age of 20, which means certain behaviours could attempt to be changed. Plus this is usually the fault of the parent (if even indirect).

• Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?

Zero tolerance at least makes it clear that such things will not be tolerated, yet often times it does not stop some people... Just on what they believe... (whether right or wrong).

• What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?

Have the teachers watch the Nanny show (as well as parents).

• What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?

Any unprecedented touching (aside from restraining if need be of course), or even psychological attack.

• Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?

Yes, if their punishment was for a wrongfully deemed act (as is we know that the innocent definitely deserve some reprimand) that did not suit the "crime" then I'd think certain legal action could be taken.

• Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?

In sociology, we had briefly learned about different aspects on what makes a deviant and a criminal. Several theories were brought up as to why crime occurs.

These are as follows:

Biological: How the person may look, including body type: endomorph, mesomorph and ectomorph

Differential association: Crime is learned in a meaningful interactive manner. This is where all the TV, video game etc theories stem from.

Strain: People feel strain when they are unable to attain a cultural goal because they don't have the means to do so, that which is culturally acceptable.

Opportunity: Not to be confused with opportunity when the crime is available but rather when the environmental circumastances facilitate it. Like a house having poor lighting may have a better chance to be robbed.

Control: Social restraints and laws, if the police said that they would not be policing or arresting tomorrow, what would happen?

Labeling: Someone commits an act of crime for the first time, or is accused of one. Then they are only associated as such, (like a criminal), thus instilling the deviant's believes that they are indeed bad (this is the most common type for children), even if the label comes with a reason, they may still identify themself as being bad.

Brain function: Self explanatory.

• Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?

It will, the teachers are protected by their union...

• For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?

I've never come across anything.

 

[Syrex]

If I was still in school and I got spanked, hit, whatever
I can honestly say I'd flip out and probably knock my teacher/principle/whatever right on his or her butt.

That kind of punishment in school would provoke even more violence.

 

[Stronkadonk]

• Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?
  
  No. Plus, that could cause retaliation.
  
• Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?
  
  It works. For the most part.
  
• What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?
  
  Be an ass right back at them.
  
• What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?
  
  A smack on the wrist vs a punch to the face. I WONDER.
  
• Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?
  
  How severe is the punishment.
  
• Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?
  
  No.
  
• Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?
  
  In my opinion, no. Unless of course, the teacher is innocent and the students are only making crap up.
  
• For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?
  
  I B IN THE US.

That is all.

 

[Vigilante]

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?
I would have to say yes, but mainly because gives the students fear. Not because it teaches what they did was wrong, it just instills fear in them.

Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?
My school has a couple Zero Tolerance things, but they are justified. It is on things like bullying and what not. It is to protect other students and their rights. We don't have rights that allow us to physically(or mentally) torment others, so in most cases it doesn't violate student rights.

What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?
People will always misbehave, no getting around that. But, the teachers should (to some extent) treat the students who are treating them poorly in the same way. They shouldn't offer their extra help or anything to students who misbehave. Of course, their is the rules.

Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?
It depends on the severity of the punishment. A smack on the wrist, no. But something like expulsion for leaving trash on the ground is grounds for being able to complain.

What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?
Any physical or mental "punishment" is abuse. There is a big fat bold line in between them, and everyone can see it. Some just choose to ignore it.

Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?\
My school has zero tolerance policies as I stated. But they are justified. They have their limits and exceptions as well.

Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?
No.

For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?

 

[Ivysaur]

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?

I honestly think that there are better ways to teach a kid without doing any physical damage. You can always give the kid more homework, keep them away from their classmates during the breaks, even kick them from class.

Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?

I don't support violence against any human being unless it's done in life-or-death situations, or for defensive purposes. I doubt this could be included here.

What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?

I stated my opinions before. But I'd also include "educating them from day 1 so they can respect people".

What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?

Just the law of proportional retribution. I don't think anything a kid can do in class deserves a physical agression as punishment.

Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?

Following the previous rule, of course.

Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?

Luckily not, but all the people over 35 have passed through this here. Yay for fascist dictatorships.

Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?

A teacher's word should mean more, unless that teacher has a slightly long historial of abuse accusations. A couple of kids may be overreacting, but when 7 people agree on that, in different moments, then something smells fishy around there.

For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?

In 1980, a law was made to overrule the 1970 fascist law, forbiding physical punishment in class. From then on, it's illegal, and if a teacher does it, they'll probably get sued after appearing in all the newspapers and TV reports as "The Child-abusing monster". Now, the biggest problem here is children abusing teachers after 8th grade or so, in fact.

 

[2A4Rulez]

At my school you get beat with a leather belt if you do something bad. Like shouting rude comments in class, missing detention and fighting etc.

 

[Abnegation]

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?

I think corporal punishment is the least effecive way of teaching kids. In many ways, it's inhumane. Learning involves the mind, that is why we go to school, therefore children should not be phisically harmed in any way shape or form, but rather punished verbally (within reason of course, non insulting) or given some sort of warning system. Such as 3 disruptions and you're on detention, no violence. I don't see how it ever helped.

Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?

I don't support violence against any human being unless it's done in life-or-death situations, or for defensive purposes. I doubt this could be included here.

If I could just echo that, as I agree 100%. Violence against kids can lead to something much more serious in their future, tough or disciplined childhoods such as these can lead to mental issues in a child's future, some don't deal with physical abuse at all well.

What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?

As said in the first answer, a warning system then detention. Suspension and expulsion in more serious scenarios. I don't see how that couldn't work. A slap on the wrist wont go on a record, all it is going to be is a mark which will heal, punishment in writing is far more humane and affective.

What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?

A child would have to do something very serious for someone to harm them, talking out of turn should not suffice a whack of a belt. I believe that honest, verbal or recorded discipline is far more suiting.

Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?

If you follow the law of a normal human being then, yes. If something is unjust then you have the right to question it, and it this case, it is far more than just unjust.

Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?

Never, I think it's been abolished from all mainland Europe. I've only heard stories. Some of which would make you bite your tongue in disgust. Hense why I feel strongly about such a topic.

Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?

In ways they have more authority, not more rights. Therefore a child's word would hold up in court just as any teacher's would, if not, more so.

For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?

The system of inspection by the Department was fundamentally flawed and incapable of being effective. Complaints by parents and others made to the Department were not properly investigated. The Department did not apply the standards in the rules and their own guidelines when investigating complaints but sought to protect and defend the religious Congregations and the schools. The Department dealt inadequately with complaints about sexual abuse, which were generally dismissed or ignored, and thus, came the law to make it officially against the justice system.

 

[NarutoActor]

Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?

I feel a zero tolerance poicy is not fair, in school some kid while I was drinking my milk taught it would be funny to hit the milk while I was drinking it. It spelled all over me out of rage I took the rest of my milk, and trow it in his face. I then relized he was mad so i got up, and went to go get some napkins. He ran after me, and tryed to choke me. I punched him in the face, and he fell to the ground then some teacher came and took us both away. I was just defending myslef, and I got the same punishment as him. pinciples should not just say "fight bot suspened 3 days", anyone can do that they should applie Judgement, and defend the victem.

What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?
If a teacher curse or phylicle hurts the kid.

Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?
Yes, There punishment might me unfair but complaining won't cange anything but they should still have the right to speak there mind.

Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?
yes, I it shaped my view on zero tolorence poiceys

Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?

no, but the school district dose not want there teachers to leave or get suied.

 

[Feign]

You're displaying a value judgment though... Because you were the one who continued the fight (regardless of the other person's actions) you were still at fault. It is a value judgment, because you are placing a bias on yourself (which isn't surprising for anyone, as we'd always want to defend ourselves), but that is why a 3rd party is needed, such as the Principle; to mediate in a decision that is the best outcome.

 

[twocows]

• Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?

Yes, if used correctly.

• Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?

No. Zero tolerance policies are absurd and are part of the reason why this country is such a horrible place to live in right now. Context should ALWAYS be taken into consideration. A child should not be arrested for taking a butter knife to school to make a peanut butter and jelly (this has happened). Similarly, a thief should not be able to successfully sue his victim for leaving a knife out and getting hurt on it (also happened). Yes, we have laws, but the whole point of having a judge (and, in some cases, a jury) is to account for CONTEXT, something which people seem to hate these days.

• What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?

If the little bugger's out of line, whack him with a ruler. If he doesn't shut up, whack him again.

• What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?

Politics.

• Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?

If it was unreasonable. Whacking a kid with the ruler for being insolent is reasonable, provided you don't hit him or her in a vital area (head, organs, privates, and so on). The sorts of things that are unreasonable should be obvious, especially to one working as a teacher. Here's a hint: if it violates the child or leaves some sort of permanent mark, it's going too far. Also, the child should be represented by the community instead of the parent in these cases, since parents are more often than not motivated by profit. If the local community thinks the punishment was overboard, it probably was.

• Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?

Considering the parents are probably doing most of the real talking, and the child is more of a proxy for whatever absurd claims the parent is making, yes. However, this is all within reason. If there was an obvious abuse of power, the teacher should be dealt with appropriately.

You're displaying a value judgment though... Because you were the one who continued the fight (regardless of the other person's actions) you were still at fault. It is a value judgment, because you are placing a bias on yourself (which isn't surprising for anyone, as we'd always want to defend ourselves), but that is why a 3rd party is needed, such as the Principle; to mediate in a decision that is the best outcome.

Don't be ridiculous. You never stand there and take it if someone attacks you. School is supposed to prepare you for the real world, and in the real world, if someone starts attacking you, you defend yourself. Self-defense is an allowable justification in court, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be an allowable justification in a school.

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?

I think corporal punishment is the least effecive way of teaching kids. In many ways, it's inhumane. Learning involves the mind, that is why we go to school, therefore children should not be phisically harmed in any way shape or form, but rather punished verbally (within reason of course, non insulting) or given some sort of warning system. Such as 3 disruptions and you're on detention, no violence. I don't see how it ever helped.

Schools were taught with corporal punishment for hundreds of years with no ill effects. This has only come up as an issue in the past few decades, and it's purely a political issue. Unless you have statistically relevant research that shows a causal link between corporal punishment and mental illness (which seems to be what you're suggesting), then I'm going to have to say that the historical precedent proves you wrong.

 

[Feign]

Don't be ridiculous. You never stand there and take it if someone attacks you. School is supposed to prepare you for the real world, and in the real world, if someone starts attacking you, you defend yourself. Self-defense is an allowable justification in court, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be an allowable justification in a school.

I don't see it as self defense after the first retaliation (the initial self defense), plus there are other ways to stop someone without causing harm.

 

[Agent Cobalt]

I don't see it as self defense after the first retaliation (the initial self defense), plus there are other ways to stop someone without causing harm.

Yeah, like hurting yourself instead of making the attacker do it. :knockedou

 

[twocows]

I don't see it as self defense after the first retaliation (the initial self defense), plus there are other ways to stop someone without causing harm.

So if someone comes at you with a knife and you knock the knife out of their hand in the struggle, and then they pick it back up, you're not allowed to continue defending yourself? He didn't punch the kid in the face until the kid tried to choke him after he had stopped attacking the kid the first time. It doesn't matter how many times someone comes at you; you're allowed to defend yourself in each instance. I do agree that there are sometimes other ways to stop people without causing harm (I personally seek out those ways over using violence), but I won't begrudge anyone the right to defend themselves physically.

Yeah, like hurting yourself instead of making the attacker do it. :knockedou

You could be like Tyler Durden in Fight Club! Except, you know, more dead and stuff. :3

 

[Feign]

So if someone comes at you with a knife and you knock the knife out of their hand in the struggle, and then they pick it back up, you're not allowed to continue defending yourself? He didn't punch the kid in the face until the kid tried to choke him after he had stopped attacking the kid the first time. It doesn't matter how many times someone comes at you; you're allowed to defend yourself in each instance. I do agree that there are sometimes other ways to stop people without causing harm (I personally seek out those ways over using violence), but I won't begrudge anyone the right to defend themselves physically.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) they are fighting by rules (the school's), but what I was talking about was the whole "If you punch me I'll punch you back" scenario, it is never-ending... That is why a defensive measure would work best, dispelling (hopefully) any sort of punishment. Like pinning the person to the ground...

Though, from my own experience I don't really practice what I preach (that and because what I've done, hasn't occurred in a school setting), needless to say I successfully essentially won a 3 on 1... So I know what it feels like...

In fact now, I feel as though as simple defensive measure is not enough. XD

 

[Jordan]

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?
From my personal experience, no. More than anything, it teaches fear and eventually inspire rebellion.

Does Zero Tolerance work or does it violate student rights?Not in my opinion; depends on the issue stated. On firearms, I don't think that there can be much debate on whether it "violates" student rights or not. However, a plastic fork shouldn't be treated the same as a butcher knife.

What should be done to keep kids in line in the classroom?What is the line between discipline and abuse in the classroom?
Common sense, mostly.

Do students have rights to complain about how they are punished?
I would have to say yes, depending on the severity of the punishment and for what reason.

Anyone have any experience with these sorts of things?
Oh, my many stories of a permanently angry childhood....see the last question for details. "It hurts me more than it hurts you" is an expression more spoken in Vietnam than "Believe in yourself" in the West.

Teachers who abuse students are often given protection by the school district. Does a Teacher's word mean more than a students in such allegations?
Define the first statement. If (s)he indeed has abused students, then his/her word would definitely mean less than the students'. However, a teacher with a clean record might have something to say in her defense as to the allegations of the children.

For those outside the US, do you experience anything like this? What's legal/what's not?
For the first 9 years of my life, I lived and attended schooling in Vietnam. Corporal punishment is considered to be character building, and is endorsed by teachers and parents across the country. (Also note that sometimes the inability to physically stand up to bullies is considered weak in our culture). Hence, the act of corporal punishment (within reason) is not illegal there. The most common form I've encountered (and experienced) is the use of a meterstick hitting in a downward stroke on the open palm. Other measures may include whipping the buttocks or slapping the face. Each year, a number of...innovative form of punishments are reported in newspapers; they often don't produce a wonderful result. A class chalk-licking of the board was ordered once by a teacher because she found some students (who didn't disclose their identity to the teacher) had misused her chalks for fun....I'm not sure if she was fired promptly or not. I now live in Canada, so there's no more corporal punishment for me.

 

[twocows]

Is Corporal Punishment an effective tool in schools?
From my personal experience, no. More than anything, it teaches fear and eventually inspire rebellion.

Clearly a case of "not doing it right." If they rebel, you're supposed to hit them harder, not back off. Eventually, they get the idea. Classic conditioning is real psychology, much unlike most of the pseudo-stuff you see nowadays. :3

 

[Wings Don't Cry]

One thing I never understood at schools is how can retaliating be worse than starting a fight.

If some kid just came up to me and starting punching and kicking me, I'm not just gonna walk away quietly(even though he's still beating me) and ignore him or tell a teacher. I'll probably fight back to protect myself from some guy who likes to beat people up because the person they're beating up will get into more trouble.

Seriously a Cub Scout all-in-one cooking utensil? No kid would use that as something dangerous, back when I was in primary we had different ways of causing panic, mainly a magnifying glass and the sun and teachers don't suspect a thing since they only think lighters and matches could cause a fire.

 

[Jordan]

Clearly a case of "not doing it right." If they rebel, you're supposed to hit them harder, not back off. Eventually, they get the idea. Classic conditioning is real psychology, much unlike most of the pseudo-stuff you see nowadays. :3

I didn't mean rebel on the spot, no xD; I meant that in the latter stages of their lives, they will give grief to the teachers who have hit them. I never quite learned to respect my Vietnamese teachers, and have been on good terms with all my American and Canadian teachers (whom I've been taught under for the past 7 years). My disciplinary record (in USA and CAN) will show that I'm far from a trouble-maker; my Vietnamese teachers might disagree, since I was physically disciplined almost on a weekly/monthly basis. Perhaps this could be that I fit into Canadian culture more suitably, or just that I'm better off without corporal punishment.

 

[jupotatoes]

Violence teaches only violence. Fear can be anything but respect. Acting in a certain way out of fear ain't being educated, it's being tamed.
I can tell. I had loving parents growing up, but they'd beat me very often. I have severe anxiety and trouble socializing nowadays.