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Steam has started selling mods.

Nihilego

[color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
8,875
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  • See title. Starting with The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, the PC gaming platform Steam is now selling community-made mods to gamers. For those of you who don't know what a "mod" is in this context, it usually refers to an unofficial addition to a game. It can add new content, change existing content, or rebalance gameplay. Some mods for Skyrim have included storyline additions, new skills and weapons, texture packs, and even a large-scale unofficial bugfix. Click here to view some of the Skyrim mods that Steam is now charging for. At the moment I believe that Skyrim is the only game on Steam with charged mods, and it's also worth noting that not all mods for Skyrim are charged at this point. As it stands, 75% of the profit goes to Valve while the other 25% goes to the modder.

    So, PC, what do you think of this? There has been a good amount of backlash towards this all over the internet, although there has been some support too, but what do you think? Is this a good money-making opportunity for hard-working modders or a deep violation of the modding community spirit? Is it okay for fan-made addons to games to be charged, or should mods remain a free tribute to a good game? Should this be viewed as an extreme use of DLC, or simply minor accessories for your games? Discuss.
     

    machomuu

    Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
    10,507
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  • Might as well copypasta my initial thoughts on the matter:

    Not sure how I feel about this, yet.

    On one hand, quite often do modders put several hours into their work, and I'm a big fan of mods, but...this does make me a bit fearful. I was always a fan of how Nexus did it, where they always had an option to donate to the modder but asking for money wasn't allowed (or it just wasn't done), but with this I fear that we will see modders gravitating towards the Workshop (which for various games, especially Elder Scrolls, is not the most convenient platform) and exclusively supplying their games there to make money. This would cause a number of problems, and in the worst case scenarios mod sites will shut down, use pay formats, or only host smaller mods and shrink in size. It might change modding communities, and I can't see it being for the better.

    That's what I thought at first, anyway. But after reading Chesko's Open Letter to Steam and reading through this article on various views, I have a different attitude, now. One that is still fearful for many of the same reasons, but hopeful as well. With this said, mod theft will probably, at least in the beginning, be a bigger problem than ever, and the amount that Steam and the devs take (75%, I believe) is disgusting. Taking that much influences the pricing of mods to go up and it's only just begun. With something like this being the case in the beginning, I worry that this will set a standard for their pricing in the future even if they decide to take less later on.

    That said, I do feel it necessary to post about one other link (or two, rather; both related). This one comes from the founder (or, at least, the head) of the mod Nexus.

    http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12449/?

    http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12444/?

    I'd recommend giving this a read, as he also has some good points worth looking into.
     

    Klippy

    L E G E N D of
    16,405
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    18
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  • Not happy with them taking so much from the modders, nor will I support this for the time being. It's a further degradation in my opinion of Valve though honestly.
     

    Nathan

    Blade of Justice
    4,066
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    11
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  • Only downsize is that Valve takes so much from modders, they should've taken 50% at most. Also I do hope they're gonna take measures to prevent mod theft. Afterwards, it's not a totally bad idea. I'll just wait and see how things goes.
     
    1,069
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  • Yeah some people are freaking out, and making jokes like "Now 4.99 to make comments on profiles" and such. Really, stop. If it's so bad don't buy the mods, and once Valve sees a huge decline in the money and modding community, they'll learn, hopefully.
     

    machomuu

    Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
    10,507
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  • Yeah some people are freaking out, and making jokes like "Now 4.99 to make comments on profiles" and such. Really, stop. If it's so bad don't buy the mods, and once Valve sees a huge decline in the money and modding community, they'll learn, hopefully.
    That's not the brunt of it, though. Some people are saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it", but that doesn't work here because, merely by Steam introducing such an idea changes everything- but it may be better to indicate what this does on a more minor scale.

    Because modding, before, was free, as a community the sharing of assets was simple. Often times, mods would keep their mods open source or allow others access, and there are a good number of times where mods depend on other mods to work (in the case of Skyrim, usually SKSE, FORES, SkyUI, among others). Now, it's not so simple. If you're aware of the whole fiasco with Chesko, this was at the beginning of it. Now, modders are scared to release mods or, if they have released mods, they hide them because they fear they will be sold without permission, that their assets will be used, or that people will pirate them. In other words, this change has retroactive effects, and it ultimately affects every single Skyrim mod there is. The community is, thus, divided, both in opinion and in a more literal sense. Modding has entered a realm of temptation and risk.

    I've said this before, but regardless of what Steam decides to do, even if they get rid of the implementation altogether, modding will never be the same.
     

    SnowpointQuincy

    Seeker of FRIEND CODES
    1,286
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  • Companies are willing to spend millions of dollars on Advertising, but when strangers on the internet promote and improve their product -in their spare time- Suddenly modders owe them money?

    Steam and the devs are being Compensated by the Renewed interest in the product, boosting sales of the original product. Why should they get a cut of the mod at all?

    As it stands, why not pirate free copies of the mod and "donate" the whole cost to the modders?
     

    TY

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    Modders asking for money is normal to me, like they put hard effort into their stuff (not everyone though) and I'm not suprised that they want money. On the other hand Valve is going the complete wrong way to approach this. They take it as a opportunity to make money themselves and prolly not to support modders as there are way better methods to do this.

    Modders wanting some money: fine to me
    Steam being greedy and taking advantage of this: far from fine
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
    1,639
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  • These people who say payware is "ok" don't seem to value the freedom they have now, or had until yesterday.

    Paid modding is like DLC, except every random jock will charge something for even the smallest thing. People don't seem to be thankful for the fact they have the good stuff for free. If you want to pay for mods, then make a donation system, it's nicer since you can donate what you want and helps your image.

    The devs are totally right by wanting their share from these crooks, as you're earning money on someone else's software. Steam needs their share too, as you're using their media to advertise your product. Hopefully the fact their cut is too much will make greedy bastards not want to suck money from fellow gamers.

    And if people start pirating mods, then what's next, DRM on mods? What a fucking joke.
     
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    machomuu

    Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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  • The devs are totally right by wanting their share from these crooks, as you're earning money on someone else's software.
    You...realize that this wasn't the modders' idea, right? The idea was brought up by Bethesda and Valve, so I don't see how that makes the modders crooks and the companies blameless victims.
     

    TY

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    I agree about donation system and that's also the best way to approach this from the modder's standpoint.

    On the other hand though, Steam has a massive influence over PC gaming these days, a lot, if not every single AAA-title goes through Steam. Steam is so dominant they can do whatever they damn please. And there are modders who go along with it because Steam is so popular and needed for big titles.

    Also their customer service in terms of mods is ridiculously dumb. If a mod breaks after the 24-hour refund time, Steam is NOT responsible for what happens according to the FAQ. And the mod may very well not even be fixed anymore due to a patch, so you just threw money through the drain.

    I would love to see how they handle copyright claims and content theft. GLHF with tons of DMCA claims Valve. Steam can't do anything against content theft so that's happening all over the place... Really one of the worst idea's Valve put up when there is something along a Patreon system which is WAY better.

    Also 25% goes to the modder? Not sure about that because I think there needs to be money going to the developers aswell... so even less goes to the modder.

    On the other hand we as a consumer have a huge power over this. Do we want to make this happen? Just buy the stuff. Do we want it to be gone? Just don't buy anything.

    We have the power here, not Valve nor the modders (even tho they put time and effort into their mods).
     
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    • Seen Feb 5, 2023
    This is so selfish, it made both my friend and I mad when we read this. At least give the modders 50%, some of these mods are the main reason people play some of the games still. there are many games that wouldn't sell nearly as much if it weren't for mods. I think we will be seeing a decline in user content now as well.

    Haha I don't think that this will be going on for long anyways: http://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-s...ost-popular-item-on-the-skyrim-steam-workshop
    Warning: Explicit language.
     
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    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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  • You...realize that this wasn't the modders' idea, right? The idea was brought up by Bethesda and Valve, so I don't see how that makes the modders crooks and the companies blameless victims.

    Yeah, but the fact some modders passively accepted it, since hey they're earning money, however small, makes them accountable for it too IMO. It makes them sellouts. There's only a contract when both parties agree to it.

    I'm not saying the companies are blameless victims. In fact, they're the ones who came up with this shit. I'm saying that, if people are going to support this ridiculous idea, there are consequences to it. Valve and Bethesda are publishing mods from third-parties, there's a risk involved and they'll take as big a cut as they can from the profit. If you want full profit from your work, self-publish it, like book authors do (in fact what I said applies to the book market too).

    The way it was before, everyone was happy. The modder did his work, earned community cred if his work was good, and could earn donations if he asked for it, which is better because donors donate whatever they want and even poor people can donate, say, $1.
     

    machomuu

    Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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  • Yeah, but the fact some modders passively accepted it, since hey they're earning money, however small, makes them accountable for it too IMO. It makes them sellouts. There's only a contract when both parties agree to it.

    I'm not saying the companies are blameless victims. In fact, they're the ones who came up with this shit. I'm saying that, if people are going to support this ridiculous idea, there are consequences to it. Valve and Bethesda are publishing mods from third-parties, there's a risk involved and they'll take as big a cut as they can from the profit. If you want full profit from your work, self-publish it, like book authors do (in fact what I said applies to the book market too).

    The way it was before, everyone was happy. The modder did his work, earned community cred if his work was good, and could earn donations if he asked for it, which is better because donors donate whatever they want and even poor people can donate, say, $1.
    You seem to be much harsher on the modders than the companies, though, and I honestly can't see why, especially considering that you know full well that it was the companies' idea. After all, it only makes sense that such a thing would happen; the chance that enough of modders- not just big time ones, but as a whole- would say no once the idea of being compensated is introduced to them was virtually zero.

    And as bad as that may sound, it doesn't sound greedy to me at all. After all, the mere thought of mod monetization being introduced to a community from someone as bigtime as Valve was poisonous in and of itself. I don't blame the modders for that, they had no reason to say no. After all, Bethesda themselves were saying to these modders that they could work together and both get compensated for the hardwork of one of them. The hardwork that is rarely thanked and even recognized. Have you seen how modders are treated? It's disgusting really. Big mods are often met with complaints, requests, and unconstructive criticism among the fans- the fans! I can't count how many great mods have fallen due to the abuse that modders have faced; it's safe to say that not everyone was happy. So here comes a way that they can directly be affected by the appreciation of those that want or enjoy their mods. People give a lot of their life and put aside a lot of valuable things for their mods, so I see no reason that these people should be labeled crooks and sellouts doing this.

    And this isn't to say that I'm supporting this system. Currently, it's a mess and only works to make Valve and everyone involved look worse. I don't think this should have been released in its current state since it has so many flaws and holes that it just makes things look worse. This is made no better by Gabe Newell's recent comments and how he hopes to police the system. And, in all honesty, I'm with the popular opinion that they should have implemented a donation system instead- heck, they still could have taken a cut, but at least that would encourage people to support modders without being forced to. Worst of all, this splits the community and has caused panic among modders. As things are now, it was much better before, but my point here is that modders that do support the idea shouldn't be treated as scum.
     
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    • Seen Sep 18, 2020
    How strange. Mods have had to be free out of necessity, as they are technically illegal by the terms of copyright. I can only assume this is really a business partnership between Valve and the publishers of whatever games end up getting paid mods, with the modders themselves ultimately being tertiary to the matter. I can't hold this against modders, since now they can do work for money and that's a fair thing —it's how society works, after all— but I do think this is going to be very damaging to what modding 'is', or 'stands for' if you like, now that it isn't strictly a hobbyist affair. I very much doubt the backlash will be large or persistent enough compared to the revenue drawn in by this practice for it to cease before making headway. I'm reminded of a video by Samyoul Online that makes the point I would like to in response to this news.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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  • You seem to be much harsher on the modders than the companies, though, and I honestly can't see why, especially considering that you know full well that it was the companies' idea. After all, it only makes sense that such a thing would happen; the chance that enough of modders- not just big time ones, but as a whole- would say no once the idea of being compensated is introduced to them was virtually zero.

    I'm equally harsh on both. You could say no if you were idealistic enough. Of course, earning a quick buck is very tempting.

    Valve did this because it's a step in their goal to monopolize the PC gaming market, just like the products they've announced earlier this year. If they succeed, soon they'll have the standard OS, the standard controller, the standard store, the standard PCs which run the games, and now the standard trading place for mods. This, my friend, is the consolization of PC gaming. Valve is thinking about the long run. If they manage to drive EA and Ubisoft away or, instead, find a better way to integrate their DRM software into Steam, it'll be Valve's great win in the gaming front. If Valve's SteamOS becomes the de facto OS for gaming purposes instead of Windows, it'll be another great win. The Steam Controller being superior to the Xbox One controller for PC gaming will be another win for Valve over Microsoft. Imagine if they go even further and integrate streaming TV services into Steam, which is already a multimedia platform. Xbox One and PS4 can do it, so Valve will want to be able to do it, too.

    If Valve has their way, in the future we'll all be gaming on Steam Machines/Steam Links and using Steam Controllers to play. Their moves, if successful, will change PC gaming forever. The advantage of customization will be lost in favor of a standard by which most will abide. Valve wants to be to PC gamers what Microsoft was to home computers.

    And as bad as that may sound, it doesn't sound greedy to me at all. After all, the mere thought of mod monetization being introduced to a community from someone as bigtime as Valve was poisonous in and of itself. I don't blame the modders for that, they had no reason to say no. After all, Bethesda themselves were saying to these modders that they could work together and both get compensated for the hardwork of one of them. The hardwork that is rarely thanked and even recognized. Have you seen how modders are treated? It's disgusting really. Big mods are often met with complaints, requests, and unconstructive criticism among the fans- the fans! I can't count how many great mods have fallen due to the abuse that modders have faced; it's safe to say that not everyone was happy. So here comes a way that they can directly be affected by the appreciation of those that want or enjoy their mods. People give a lot of their life and put aside a lot of valuable things for their mods, so I see no reason that these people should be labeled crooks and sellouts doing this.

    I have no idea what the Skyrim community is like. There's n00bs everywhere. You can't restrict access to anyone, provided they behave. Modders should ignore trolls like everyone sensible does.

    And this isn't to say that I'm supporting this system. Currently, it's a mess and only works to make Valve and everyone involved look worse. I don't think this should have been released in its current state since it has so many flaws and holes that it just makes things look worse. This is made no better by Gabe Newell's recent comments and how he hopes to police the system. And, in all honesty, I'm with the popular opinion that they should have implemented a donation system instead- heck, they still could have taken a cut, but at least that would encourage people to support modders without being forced to. Worst of all, this splits the community and has caused panic among modders. As things are now, it was much better before, but my point here is that modders that do support the idea shouldn't be treated as scum.

    The sad truth is that donation helps only the modder. Valve and Bethesda aren't interested in the modder's well-being, they want money and control. The system they put in place is abhorrent, but it makes sense because of what I said before: Valve provides the means to advertise and publishes the mod, and Bethesda is the maker of the game and owns all rights to it. In the past, to create a paid expansion to a game you needed to license the rights from whoever held them.

    First of all, in many places you need to pay to place an ad. Moreover, the publisher takes into account the risk involved in promoting a third-party's work, especially in the case of amateur and/or first-time authors. If you try to publish a book, you won't get a favorable contract the first time around; quite the contrary. The publisher takes the largest cut, because of the risks. They spend money on printing and advertising, and they have their reputable name on the line whenever they agree to publish a first-time author.

    As for mod prices, the market is still walking its baby steps. It's generally agreed, however, that few people are going to want to pay for a mod as much as they pay for DLC. The DLC has the "official" label that even the best mods lack. So, at least for now, making mods for games won't put food on anyone's plate.

    To sum it up, my opinion is that, when you were able to get something for free, you sure as hell aren't going to agree that you have to pay for it. No one will settle for less rights (or, more accurately, less power) than they currently have unless coerced to it. It's against logic. Paid mods and tight control over them don't benefit the end consumer, who could in the past grab the mod from various places without paying a dime. The modder may never even see the money if he/she doesn't profit enough. But for the modder, this isn't a big thing, because he/she was earning zero from sharing the mod anyway. If the modder is smart and doesn't see this as his/her job, but rather as a complimentary activity, he/she doesn't incur into any risks.

    How strange. Mods have had to be free out of necessity, as they are technically illegal by the terms of copyright.

    That's not true. Games in the past came with map building tools that allowed you to freely and legally create new content without violation of copyright. What is or isn't copyright violation depends on the game's license. And, of course, you can't monetarily use someone else's trademark without licensing the rights from them. Notice how 3D Realms (creator of Duke Nukem 3D) licensed third-party companies to build and sell custom mapsets for their games, while also being supportive of user-made freeware content.
     
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