3rd Gen Strongest pokemon up to R/S/E

[The Abyss]

Any level 100 could take on the E4...This is competitive battling, with EVs and all. Ya know?

 

[YellowPen]

Im not sure if this moveset counts in R/S/E but ill post it anyways cause I simply love it

Umbreon@Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
Attacks: Toxic
Mean Look
Baton Pass
Wish



I know that a taunt or a substitute would completely ruin this moveset, but it has set me up alot of the battles


oh and Sornlax > Herracross

 

[shanecdavis]

I think some people aren't quite getting the point to this thread. Or maybe I am not.

1. This is only for up to RSE (DPP Pokemon and DPP movesets don't count)
2. This is only for non Uber/Lengendary Pokemon
3. This has nothing to do with beating the game. ANY Lv100 Poekmon sweeps the Weak 5 with ease.

This thread, again unless I am reading into it wrong, is about the strongest overall non-Legendary Pokemon in the game. Strongest doesn't just mean the highest Atk or SAtk, but also strong defensively.

With that in mind, while I love using Metagross and Salamence (especially on the same team as they compliment each other very nicely), neither has the staying power of Snorlax. Earthquake ruins Meta's day and Ice Beam takes out Salamence quite easily. Sure there is Roar/Whirlwind and Psych Up out there, but they are much less common than EQ/IB. Rest also removes Toxic, and if you fear Toxic that much, just go with Immunity over Thick Fat. No worries.

Umby is also one of the strongest defensively with a truly great moveset. It just lacks any offensive punch to speak of.

Blaziken and Gyarados, due to bad typing, are just too weak defensively to even come close.

 

[Jaredz99]

Just saying that shanecdavis is right. this thread is for pokemon up to R/S/E, which means only items and moves up to R/S/E as well. Also, the only great argument i've seen so far defending a pokemon is by shanecdavis, although i don't really understand the whole "two turn stalling advantage w/rest" either. However, in light of the posts so far, i'd like to re-present my defense of heracross:
Quite frankly, heracross has one of the best movepools in the game considering his types. a STAB Megahorn = 180 ATK, taking advantage of 125 base ATK, and for my personal Heracross, 372 ATK. Also, Heracross gets STAB Reversal. I'm actually not sure what the ATK for Reversal is when HP is at 1, but i'm sure that w/STAB it is above 250 (if some1 could confirm this that would be great, i haven't found anything figuring Reversal damage). A battle between a Heracross and Curselax would, IMO, be closer than it appears. On Serebii, Heracross base ATK = 125 and Snorlax base DEF = 65. Entering this information on a damage calculator (from marriland), the damage was 250-294. assuming a Curse on that turn and Heracross going first next, that looks like a KO to me. However, i may be missing something, i haven't actually tried this, and if someone shows me something disproving this theory with actual evidence backing it up, i will accept it.

Edit: just went to psypoke and did damage calculation on lvl 100 Heracross w/1 HP vs. lvl 100 Snorlax w/full HP and sleep. says average damage would be 902.5. just saying.

 

[shanecdavis]

Here is the Reversal chart:
0% - 3.124% HP remaining - Base Damage 200
3.125% - 9.374% HP remaining - Base Damage 150
9.375% - 20.3124% HP remaining - Base Damage 100
20.3125% - 34.374% HP remaining - Base Damage 80
34.375% - 67.1874% HP remaining - Base Damage 40
67.1875% - 100% HP remaining - Base Damage 20

I do agree that head-to-head Heracross has an advantage over Snorlax. That said, I don't think that makes Heracross better. There isn't a Pokemon in the game that doesn't have a weakness of some sort. For example, Skarmory can come in on Heracross, put up a Sub the first turn (regardless if Heracross uses Endure or Rock Slide) and then use Drill Peck (regardless if Heracross uses Reversal or gambles with Endure again). Does that make Skarmory better? I don't think so. As I said before, Skarmory is DEFINITELY one of the best due to its terrific typing and stats, but it just doesn't have the offensive firepower. Heracross is the exact opposite. It has terrific offensive firepower, top 5, but its mediocre defense combined with that nasty 4x Flying weakness just doesn't make it as well-rounded as Snorlax.

 

[Jaredz99]

Although shanecdavis makes a great argument defending snorlax, i still believe that heracross is a better pokemon. for well-roundedness, snorlax's moveset that you suggest only has 2 types of attacks: one normal (body slam/return) and then one optional for which you give three different typed moves: Ground, Ghost and Fire. so, we have a normal, ground, ghost and fire type attack. normal has no 2x advantages, and the most advantages you can get from the other attack is 5, from ground (fire, electric, poison, rock, steel). However, Heracross gets 3 type moves: bug, fighting, and rock. this gives him 10 type advantages: 3 from bug (grass, psychic, dark), 4 from rock (fire, ice, flying, bug), and 3 from fighting (normal, rock, steel). Also, heracross is only weak to 3 things: fire (covered by rock), flying (covered by rock), and psychic (covered by bug). So, everything heracross is weak to is covered by an attack with at least 75 power. also, the only type of those 3 that heracross is likely to suffer a speed advantage from is psychic (alakazam), which is what the 252 ev points and salac berry are for. basically, with endure, amazing atk, and good speed, i think that heracross is guaranteed to take out at least 1 pokemon or severely weaken up to 3. this is why i believe heracross is the best.

However, i will agree to one major thing: heracross' 4x flying weakness makes for a major disadvantage. aerial ace is an extremely good flying type move that many different types of pokemon can use. an unexpected aerial ace from a random rock type could spell doom for heracross.

But i think that the biggest reason that heracross is better could be because snorlax is believed to be better. as shanecdavis stated in his first post, snorlax revolutionized the metagame and made it so that any realistically competitive team must have some sort of snorlax counter (like heracross! lol). however, because heracross is used less (without going as far as to claim that he is underused, far from it), no counters are developed specifically for heracross. when an opponent sees one, he thinks "switch to a flying type", giving a free rock slide/megahorn on the switch. basically, although i concede that snorlax is an extremely powerful pokemon (i use him myself), and that there are other great candidates out there (metagross, salamence, skarmory, milotic), heracross should be considered the best pokemon out there.

 

[Kozoi]

I achually think Slaking is a powerhouse, how dare you not mention him, lol.

Yeah, his stats are great and he can learn a variety of moves.

 

[yuki3056]

In my opinion the strongest pokemon has to be...........Swampert

it is resistant to electric types and grass types are easy to handle with like ice beam or blizzard and easy to obtain you just pick mudkip as your starter plus it can learn a good number of moves

 

[Jaredz99]

lol i guess mister grass-lover isn't as dedicated as he would like you to think. swampert over sceptile?
Just kidding. but onto your argument. it is true that swampert is a strong water type w/lots of hp and immunity to electric. basically, he fits into the group of "bulky waters". although swampert is good, the biggest problem is that he's not even the best in that class. most people believe that starmie, vaporeon and milotic all fit this niche better. therefore, although swampert is good, he's definitely not the best.
Also, for the previous post, could you please offer a moveset for slaking? i'm not familiar with the general moveset for him, so that would help me formulate an argument. however, it seems that slaking is like snorlax except a heracross would be able to get in 2 reversals instead of 1 (because of truant)...just saying.

 

[shanecdavis]

Although shanecdavis makes a great argument defending snorlax, i still believe that heracross is a better pokemon. for well-roundedness, snorlax's moveset that you suggest only has 2 types of attacks: one normal (body slam/return) and then one optional for which you give three different typed moves: Ground, Ghost and Fire. so, we have a normal, ground, ghost and fire type attack. normal has no 2x advantages, and the most advantages you can get from the other attack is 5, from ground (fire, electric, poison, rock, steel). However, Heracross gets 3 type moves: bug, fighting, and rock. this gives him 10 type advantages: 3 from bug (grass, psychic, dark), 4 from rock (fire, ice, flying, bug), and 3 from fighting (normal, rock, steel). Also, heracross is only weak to 3 things: fire (covered by rock), flying (covered by rock), and psychic (covered by bug). So, everything heracross is weak to is covered by an attack with at least 75 power. also, the only type of those 3 that heracross is likely to suffer a speed advantage from is psychic (alakazam), which is what the 252 ev points and salac berry are for. basically, with endure, amazing atk, and good speed, i think that heracross is guaranteed to take out at least 1 pokemon or severely weaken up to 3. this is why i believe heracross is the best.

However, i will agree to one major thing: heracross' 4x flying weakness makes for a major disadvantage. aerial ace is an extremely good flying type move that many different types of pokemon can use. an unexpected aerial ace from a random rock type could spell doom for heracross.

But i think that the biggest reason that heracross is better could be because snorlax is believed to be better. as shanecdavis stated in his first post, snorlax revolutionized the metagame and made it so that any realistically competitive team must have some sort of snorlax counter (like heracross! lol). however, because heracross is used less (without going as far as to claim that he is underused, far from it), no counters are developed specifically for heracross. when an opponent sees one, he thinks "switch to a flying type", giving a free rock slide/megahorn on the switch. basically, although i concede that snorlax is an extremely powerful pokemon (i use him myself), and that there are other great candidates out there (metagross, salamence, skarmory, milotic), heracross should be considered the best pokemon out there.

Great points, Jared. While I totally agree that Heracross has advantages with the different attack types it can use, Snorlax doesn't require much type advantage with Curse. A STAB Return boosted with Curse kills most things.

The biggest difference between Heracross and Snorlax, is that while Heracross can guarantee one kill and severely weaken three opponents, Snorlax has the staying power to sweep entire teams.

I achually think Slaking is a powerhouse, how dare you not mention him, lol.

Yeah, his stats are great and he can learn a variety of moves.

The two big problems that prevent Slaking from even being mentioned as the best is Truant and its low base SDef. That no attacking turn allows the opponent a free switch and attack. Not good.

In my opinion the strongest pokemon has to be...........Swampert

it is resistant to electric types and grass types are easy to handle with like ice beam or blizzard and easy to obtain you just pick mudkip as your starter plus it can learn a good number of moves

Swampert is the best starter in the game and has one of the best typing too. Definitely should be mentioned among the best, but, like Heracross, it has a nasty 4x weakness, although Grass is not nearly as common as Flying. Cursepert can be a terror, no question there with a STAB Earthquake and Rock Slide covering a lot more ground than Snorlax, but it just doesn't quite have the staying power that Snorlax does.

 

[Azonic]

2. This is only for non Uber/Lengendary Pokemon

I found this rule quite redundant. Not the uber part, but the legendary part. Legendary doesn't define a Pokemon's strength, it defines a Pokemon's history and characteristics. Legendary Pokemon can be completely weak and pathetic, such as the Entei, Unown or Phione. Judge a pokemon's strength based on tiers, not legendary status. Therefore, I'm completely ignoring this rule. >>;

Suicune is still one of the best.

 

[shanecdavis]

My name is Shane and I approve the above message.

If we were to look at tiers instead, both Celebi and Suicune are right up there, due to their moveset and stats. I still think Snorlax barely nudges both of them due to its superior offensive ability.

 

[Jaredz99]

sorry, you guys are right. looking at that rule, it is kind of stupid. sorry for that.

 

[shanecdavis]

Don't be sorry. You were the one that set the parameters. You could have added a rule that the Pokemon's name had to end with an 's'. While that rule isn't the most optimal, it still would be an interesting parameter to follow.

 

[groudonlover]

If i must say something that ends with 's', i would say Heracross or Ninetales, even since i have never used ethier of them... There is total like 5 Pokemon that ends with 's' that is not Übers, and 3 of them is D/P...
If not, Milotic

 

[Ninja Caterpie]

Hmm...The best Pokemon HAVE been mentioned but, seeing as I haven't really tried a Curselax or Heracross, I can't really decide. Well, my most useful is probably AgiliGross.

Metagross @ Liechi
252 Atk/252 Spd
Agility
Earthquake/Brick Break
Meteor Mash
Exploshun!

Agility is there for the speedz0rs. Even without it, Metagross still has some speed, but with it it outruns a lot more.
EQ is for...well...uh...I dunno, damage.
Brick Break could be used to attack Lax.
Mash is for STAB
Explosion is when you're going to die. You blow up and they'll most likely take a lot of damage.

Oh, and everyone?

SCEPTILE IS THE AWESOME BECAUSE IT PWNS ALL TEH N00B!

 

[Dukey]

Swampert is definitely not the strongest, Sceptile 0HKO's him with any grass move

Most of them are pretty good, but every pokemon is made to have a weakness so there isn't exactly a 'strongest pokemon'

 

[shanecdavis]

That is why, once again, you cannot judge who is stronger by going head-to-head. While Sceptile may OHKO with a few Grass moves (certainly not all of them), a Pidgeot can OHKO Sceptile with Fly. Does that make Pidgeot better? Certainly not. The purpose of this topic is to discuss the strongest and most well-rounded. While Swampert has a nasty 4x weakness to Grass, it also has Ice Beam that really messes up Sceptile on the switch. Considering it can cover its only weakness rather well, and has such a versatile moveset, certainly makes it one of the strongest in the game, but as I said before, it just doesn't have the staying power to hang with the likes of Snorlax, Suicune, or Celebi.

As for Metagross, definite top tier Pokemon, but like Heracross, just a bit too frail defensively.