Sun/Moon signal the sad death of Pokémon as we know it

[Ducolamia]

There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it.

For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements.

Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless.

Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another.

And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why.

My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Sigh* Okay, you are entitled to your opinion, but as a Pokemon fan, I'd like to give you some insight on my opinion as well. Please don't take this as an insult, but it's important that I note some things about what you said:

First off, "There was once a series with a well-structured formula and, most importantly, a consistent lore where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."

Um..no. First off, the formula should've been changed by gen 4. The formula is not well-structured. In theory it is a good idea, but the only reason it worked was because it was new and something not done yet. Outside of theory, the execution has been a bit lackluster to say the least. You are supposed to tell me that a little kid is supposed to be responsible for taking care of a whole town? I understand that not all gym leaders are little kids and I also know that an 11 year-old kid going on a journey is stupid enough( I can get by it for the sake of the game), but at least with the trial Captains, they have to be approved by some SYSTEM to be a Captain. In generation 4, Riley, a partner trainer, states that the League invited him to be a part of the E4, but he declined! What is preventing any idiot from joining the league for the sake of some evil plan or beating the Champion for some evil plan. Oh wait, it didn't stop N and Team Plasma. Not to mention that after you become the champion, that you don't even do anything champion related. You just kinda wander around doing nothing but battling harder trainers. You don't even get to battle possible Champion candidates even though YOU have the title. The original Red and Green is even worse with this as after beating the game, there is nothing to do, but complete the Pokedex, which is a pain if you don't have friends. This is "well-structured"? This is "consistent"? Even in Pokemon land this makes little sense.

As for lore, have you even looked at the Pokedex? Sheninja is supposed to suck out the soul of people who look at it from behind, but in battle, you see it from behind ALL THE TIME. In Pokemon Fire Red, a research team supposedly found remnants of Mew in South America....you know... a country that should not exist in the Pokemon World because it was never once established (in the games) that the continents we know exist in Pokemon? There are hundreds of plotholes in Pokemon like this, but I can't go over them in such little time, so here's a link to one of the many videos that point this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PH-hhKNkNs

"where you could connect all the dots and get a larger picture from it."

Okay, I admit that Pokemon has become more complicated than it's roots, but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Pokemon needs to grow for the sake of getting a bigger audience. It wouldn't be here today if Pokemon didn't try to expand. I understand that it could be a bit jarring, but you should at least give it a chance.

"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon". Like many games of its kind, when you got a Pokémon game, you knew what you were getting into. Furthermore, every addition to the lore was an addition rather than a replacement. Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."

No...Pokemon, the creatures you battle with, is what made Pokemon, "Pokemon" the battles, are what make Pokemon "Pokemon". I guess your definition of what makes Pokemon is different than mine, but in some sort of stretch, In media, the anime is what forms people's perception of Pokemon. You don't necessarily need the gym battles and E4 to make a pokemon game. That's why Pokemon Colosseum and XD exist as a well as the Mystery Dungeon series and Conquest. I will agree that you do know what to expect in Pokemon and that additions to the lore are good, but that's the problem, the meat of the issue: Pokemon has had the same formula for 20 years. I know if it's not broken, don't fix it, but the gym leader/E4/Champion system is broken. You can easily beat one gym leader( with very few exceptions) with one Pokemon. Even as a kid, I knew that you could do that. As a result, the challenge becomes non-existent. I know that Pokemon is geared towards kids, but kids are not stupid and can easily figure out the stuff I did. Also:

"Many things were only loosely connected, but you could get something that mostly made sense and, as new additions were incorporated to the lore, they did not exclude what was old and already existed. Rather, these retcons weren't so drastic as to completely negate what came before, but gave new meaning to already existing elements."

This line confuses me. Are you trying to say that lore was/is only speculation and that it should stay that way? What?( no, seriously, please correct me on this). What makes gen 7 negate from other generations? Please tell me. I haven't once seen gen 7 say that Mewtwo doesn't exist or some sort of shit like that. In ORAS, they did change a bunch of stuff including parts of the lore, but that was only for THEIR LEGENDARIES, NO ONE ESLE. How does Groudon and Kyorge affect anything from before but the original games or Ruby or Sapphire? Why should Gamefreak not try to expand on the lore? How is that a bad thing?

"Fast forward to ORAS.

In ORAS, the character of Zinnia was introduced and with her came the multiple timelines story. That was a game changer because, up until that moment, every addition to the Pokémon timeline was linear. We were supposed to assume that each pair of games took place later than the one before it. The Hoenn remakes broke that logic by establishing that a new timeline was introduced with X and Y and ORAS was a part of that new timeline. The reason for my sig is simple: ORAS' "jump the shark" moment is because the old timeline was made obsolete as it lacked Mega Evolutions and for all we knew the new path was going to feature more and more Megas. It felt like the old games were worthless."

First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation. Say what you want, but that the truth. For the sake of the argument, if it is canon, who cares if it broke the timeline in 2? It's half-ass, but at least there was some semblance of trying to explain why Mega evolution exists and why we haven't seen it yet. Plus, the theory never stated that the past gens stories did not happen. All the theory is, is that there are two timelines. That's it. The rest is just speculation. Also, how are the old games worthless? ORAS was simply a remake of the original games. If they really wanted to make it worthless they would never reference the old games ever in any way, shape, or form, which they have done. As for Megas...I'll get to that in a moment.

"Then Sun/Moon came and what happened was a complete makeover. They discarded the whole structure of a Pokémon game that was familiar to the fans, in favor of so-called "Trials" that are pretty standard practice in other RPGs. Another addition that was brought up in Sun/Moon was the Alolan Forms, which go against what has been set in stone in Pokémon lore, as changes based on adaptation to the environment was the characteristic of one single Pokémon (Eevee), and occasionally others like Wormadam, for whom the explanation was distinct and convincing. On top of that, the Alolan Forms seem to be designed with "superior" types/stats in relation to the metagame and their classic counterparts, which makes their goal obvious - to replace the now obsolete classic forms which barely anybody uses anymore. Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."

This probably ticks me off the most in my opinion. What is wrong with trying something different that is good for the sake of the franchise. Please tell me. Because all I see is someone complaining that the franchise is changing and not giving any solutions on how it could change for the better. "Trials" may be common in other rpgs, but keep in mind we barely have any side quests in Pokemon that don't include trading or a legendary Pokemon involved. Plus, we don't even know how they will work( not in the order-sense is what I mean). As for Alolan forms, they do not go against Pokemon lore, it supports it. Pokemon are the "animals" of the world in the games. It has been proven in-game that Pokemon of all shapes and sizes can adapt to the environment and change form/colour/type. Why should Eevee be the only Pokemon to change? In reality, Eevee is not special by any means. In fact, because of evolution, Eevee is pretty normal in the world, but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that animals adapting is normal. Also, how do these forms make the original Pokemon obsolete? I'm still going to love my regular Vulpix like many other people. Changing the stats/ appearance of these Pokemon won't change that fact, in fact, it makes people love them more because they have a new variety that they wouldn't have had as their own type. Plus, Gamefreak is trying to give a new spin to old Pokemon that need it. The only time I heard of people talking about Marowak was the whole Cubone's mother thing. Now, people might actually get invested and use a Marowak. It might not be the original, but that it their choice.

"Finally, the introduction of uncatchable Ultra Beasts breaks the classic logic from Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with, and every Pokémon you see in the game is obtainable one way or another."

First off, you are once again believing speculation to be fact. We don't know if ultra beast are uncatchable. I even checked the offical Pokemon site and Serebii.com. It doesn't say that they are not cathable. All the sites say are that they could pose a threat to humans/pokemon implying they are not Pokemon. Also, what? Ultra Beast are not Pokemon from what we know so far and you are confusing me with, "Pokémon that each boss is only as good as the Pokémon they can form a team with" Please explain.

"And, to complete the trainwreck, the announcement that Megas will be banned from the next VGC means that the developers of the games are probably no longer interested in a mechanic that everyone made a huge deal of and which was pivotal to the generation immediately preceding this one. This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

Seriously calling new games a trainwreck before they come out? Nice. Also, Megas should be banned for tournaments. Say what you will, but in my opinion, Megas are too Op and people probably don't want to see the same set of Mega Kangaskan every time they battle someone in tournaments. It's not that they aren't interested in making new ones. For a game company, you are right, it makes no sense to make almost 50 new designs and buffs for Pokemon and not use them, but have you ever thought that they just don't want the focus on Megas this gen? It may seem odd, but with the whole new influx of Pokemon and Alolan forms maybe Pokemon doesn't want Megas to take up all the spotlight. You can still obtain them with the new Pokemon Wifi thing( can't remember at the moment) in Sun and Moon with BP and before you complain, we don't know how hard it will be to obtain BP in SuMo and with Pokemon Bank it's super easy to grind for BP.

"This created an extreme inconsistency and confusion as to whether Megas would be seen again and which will be their place now that they could be phased out and whether the new timeline will see its conclusion. "

It's not that inconsistent really. I admit, I was skeptical on whether Megas would return, but I knew that couldn't be the case as they are so popular. If there is one thing I think we can both agree on it's that, Pokemon Company likes getting money. The reason we got Ash-Greninja is because it is so damn popular. Megas are way too popular/profitable to just be gone next gen. They may not make new ones for this gen as they want to focus on other stuff than Megas, but that is Pokemon Company's choice. (I already mentioned my thoughts on the timeline above so no comment here).

"It sounds to me that the Pokémon team does not know in which direction to take the games (the sales of which are in decline) and is creating mechanic after mechanic without any concern for balance and systematics. This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

First of all, Pokemon is taking a new direction because there is a new director named Shigeru Ohmori. He has very different plans for Sun and Moon and for more thoughts here's a link:

http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/ohmori/

I can't speak for Pokemon Company but I'm sure that they know what they are doing(unlike X and Y which just felt rushed, but that's a conversation for another day) This isn't like Gen 6 when it was the first time Pokemon was using 3d models and graphics, this game clearly has more experienced people working with the franchise finding out what works and what doesn't.

"This could mean that in 8th gen the Z-Crystals are replaced with yet another object and yet another mechanic and disappear without any explanation as to why."

There are certain features that don't stay with each gen like the Pokenav/Poketch but those are relatively small and don't affect the gameplay. I get the concern with Z moves, but let's put this into perspective. Alola is a remote tropical island. If Z-crystals are certain special crystals that can only be found in Alola, I feel that would make the most sense. Once again, this is specultion and for all that happens they could be gone in gen 8, but I doubt it. Z-moves affect the gameplay severely. Now, you have to worry about your opponent using a Z-move. They wouldn't drop it unless it wasn't popular or didn't help anything.

"My disillusion with the Pokémon series, therefore, stems from this lack of consistency. We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games. If I wanted to play dungeon crawlers with a completely messed up timeline I'd get Zelda instead. It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected.

Sorry to break this to you, but as I stated before, Pokemon has always been inconsistent. The reason why it gets away with it is because there is much more to Pokemon than it being inconsistent. Because people can enjoy the game for what it is, it doesn't matter if Pokemon is somewhat inconsistent. All people care about is that the game can be good DESPITE it's inconsistencies. Are there things that most likely will stay like Mega Evolutions? Yeah, but I can't predict the future, just like no one else can. As much as people try, Pokemon is pretty hard to track down on trends. I can't even think about what they might do next. However, it's best not to judge the worse of the franchise just because it seems different. Please tell me, what do you want in a Pokemon game? From what you've written you clearly have a distaste for Pokemon SuMo right now. So....what do you want then? What do want changed? Please tell me so I can understand because right now, I don't know what fans like you want.

"We buy Pokémon games because we want to play Pokémon games."

True and False. Yes, I buy Pokemon games because I want to play Pokemon, but on the other hand no... I buy Pokemon games because of the Pokemon/features. I don't just buy it because it has the formula, if I did, then I wouldn't try the spinoffs like many other people. People, including me, buy Pokemon games for fun. If Pokemon Sun and Moon didn't look to be fun, I would not have any interest in it. I do have interest because Pokemon is trying something outside it's comfort zone and I'm curious to see how it is. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, Pokemon learns not to do it again. However, I need to stress that we don't know how these games are going to be like yet, so it's best not to be extremely negative about it. ( Not to say you aren't allowed to have an opinion, you have every right to one, this is just how I feel--in other words my opinion).

"It's no secret that Pokémon has been stale for a while, but IMO transforming it and its monsters into something they're not, is not the path to take and does not do any good for the series especially in its 20th anniversary, when the old games should've been paid homage to instead of effectively neglected."

Wait...so you are aware that Pokemon is getting stale? I'm confused now. You stated earlier:

"For better or worse, the rigid structure of gyms, evil team and Elite Four succeeded by a Champion was what made Pokémon, "Pokémon".

So, I assumed that you probably thought that the new changes to Pokemon could be bad, but now they aren't? What? I probably stated this too much already but once again, please explain.

How is Pokemon transforming into something it's not? As long as it is under the Pokemon label it is Pokemon. You can believe otherwise and have every right to, but that's how it is. Also, Pokemon Company can do whatever they want for their 20th Anniversary games. There's no set-in stone about what they have to do. If they want to change the formula and add references in honor of the 20th Anniversary, they have every right to do it. The game is still going to sell as long as there isn't any huge bug or something like that. Lastly,Pokemon is not neglecting the older games, that is a lie. Pokemon has always had some sort of reference to older games.

Gen 2 is practically an entire homage to gen 1, with almost everything Kanto put into it.

Gen 3 has Pikachu and the first bug Pokemon found in the same forest. Gen 3 also has post-game Safari zone with Gen 2 Pokemon in it.

Gen 4 has an Eevee given out to you and the early bug pokemon being from Gen 3( Wurmple). In Platinum, they added more Gen 2 Pokemon such as Houndour.

In the recent games, Gen 6, the game with arguably the most references to gen 1, you got:

-The first forest made up of the same layout as Viridian Forest, including the first bug Pokemon in the game, a rare encounter of Pikachu, and being a lush forest.

- You get the choose the KANTO STARTERS SPECIFICALLY.

- The KANTO STARTERS also get Mega Evolutions and Charizard gets 2.

- You get to capture the KANTO LEGENDARIES post-game

- There is a cave in which you get to capture Mewtwo, a Pokemon that you could also capture in the original Red and Green...in Cerulean Cave.

- Mewtwo gets 2 Mega Evolutions

and finally, a majority of non-Kalos Pokemon in Gen 6 are from Kanto.

In Gen 7 we also got Kanto Pokemon getting Alola forms( we don't know if it's exclusive yet, but who knows at this point) and Pokemon Snap 2.0

I'm pretty sure Pokemon wouldn't have put any of these references in if they didn't care about the older games. They don't have to put in something akin to, " Red exists in Kanto and he's really strong" just to prove that they care about the other games. I think the fact they went out of there way to make it clear that they love Kanto/any previous gen is more than enough proof that they haven't forgotten anything on purpose.

 

[Cura]

I love threads like these ones, its just the clear hop onto the bandwagon of hate and salt because someone can't just realize things change can become different overtime.

 

[Keiran]

You can't review a game without first having played it. Look at what happened to No Man's Sky. Hype bandwagons are never a true prediction of a games' quality.

 

[Cerberus87]

I was successful with my post. The goal was just that, to stir up debate!

Although these are truly my opinions.

Quoting everything is too hard, let's split the points:

1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

 

[clbgolden]

l
First of all, the multiple timeline story has been blown way out of proportion. It is NOT CANON Zinnia implied it could be canon. It's just that every person and their mother saw what she said and took it as fact when in reality it's just speculation.

Though I agree with the rest of your post, to this day I don't get why people doubt Zinnia's words on another timeline. Do you really think GF put that dialogue in just for the "lulz" or something?

I was successful with my post. The goal was just that, to stir up debate!

Although these are truly my opinions.

Quoting everything is too hard, let's split the points:

1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

1. It's never been confirmed, but if RBY and FRLG take place under the same timeline it'd make no sense, even on Pokémon standards.

2. Who's to say some of the Trials can't take place in cities? And technically speaking, N wasn't really the "Champion" in BW, as he only became so just as you entered in.

3. No real argument here, but I hope you can earn enough money to get the games to see if they turn out better than you think.

4. Also no argument here.

5. For starters, they aren't abondoning Mega Evolutions any time soon, so Z-Crystals aren't a replacement. And your examples aren't exactly the best, as Ice/Fairy Ninetails and Normal/Dark Raticate aren't as good defensively. And besides, if the old 'Mons aren't good, then why wouldn't you want to be spruced up?

6. ... Explain.

 

[Altairis]

Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

 

[Rivvon]

Why do people think Trial Captains are a big departure for the series? They're just Gym Leader but instead of being inside a Gym they're in the Great Outdoors™. And even then, Pokémon is a series that can literally rest on its own laurels. Just because Trial Captains are a thing in SM doesn't mean we'll never see Gym Leaders again--the next games could just as easily go back to having Gym Leaders.

The only thing I can understand concern over is the lack of new Mega Evolutions because if they keep introducing major new mechanics every gen (Megas in gen 6, regional differences in gen 7, Pokémon games on motorcycles in gen 8) it can become very overwhelming very fast (look at what happened to Yu-Gi-Oh! creating a new summoning method every few years). It would be much better to add to Megas rather than making Z-Moves and Z-Forms and Z-Dances and all that jazz, but at the same time SM are just one set of games. If we get another set of games without new Megas, then I'd start to worry. But for the time being there's no real basis to say that we'll never see new Megas in the future.

Honestly there really isn't any reason to say the changes brought about in SM signal anything about the series changing for good. Alola forms are just form changes, Trial Captains are just Gym Leaders; same things as always, but with a new coat of paint. The only thing really "different" are UB's, but even then they may just turn out to be regular ol' legendary Pokémon but with a new classification.

That being said, if you don't like the way the games are shaping out--then that's fine. There's no way you'll like every single game. And you're certainly not obligated to play a game that doesn't seem to interest you. But I don't think the things SM are doing are inherently going to change the series forever, because nothing is really being changed. At least, not to the extent that people are making it out to be.

 

[NohBuddy2016]

Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

 

[clbgolden]

Pokemon will never die cause we live in a world where ignorance is bliss, and die hard lovers of this series will keep on buying their games just cause it is Pokemon.

Not to mention, most people these days will buy games just so they stay in the loop or so they can keep gaming with their friends... cause let's be honest, when was the last time a friend of yours said "hey, can you bring over your Gameboy Color so we can trade pokemon to evolve them?"

Hell, I haven't heard that in years. Now that gaming is becoming more multiplayer oriented, people will keep buying games they don't even like... just so they can actually play the newest game with their friends.

Out of all my friends, I am the only one that still owns and plays a Gameboy Color, thus... I don't game with them much cause I can't afford spending cash on that which isn't a necessity for survival.

Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

 

[NohBuddy2016]

Uh, first off, I doubt many people buy Pokémon just because it's Pokémon. By that logic, then spin-off games would sell a lot more than they do "because it's Pokémon".

Second... Who actually only plays a game just to appeal to their friends? Of course their may be couple few, but you make it sound like a majority.

Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

 

[RetroPokeman]

I'm convinced that at this stage people will pick apart anything Pokémon does simply because they're refusing to let go of childhood nostalgia and can't accept the series is growing and expanding beyond the basic concept. Such a shame, because I believe if they actually gave it 2 seconds of a chance for real they'd actually enjoy it. Not that it's even out yet, haha. :(

I've been around since the start and I'm THRILLED with how things are going. We're not losing what we had, we're getting more with it. I don't see why people are complaining about trial captains. They're just gym leaders with a new name and a fresh coat of paint.

 

[clbgolden]

Well, this logic doesn't apply to just Pokemon. Most games that seem to never end are owned by those kind of people. Saying that because certain games were not sold as much is irrelevant, since most people probably are not that stupid to throw money away just cause in the first place. Maybe 1 in 100 are like this, but not the masses.

Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

 

[NohBuddy2016]

Well, the way you described it it sounded like you meant the masses.

My apologies for that, not exactly great at wording everything.

 

[Caaethil]

There was once a series with a well-structured formula

So it's true. You really can't please everyone.

Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Wrong. It's alienating you and the core fanbase is embracing it. Frankly, I don't think we'll miss the few players who hate change so much. You've had six generations of the same you can play through again if you'd like.

 

[Dunsparce]

Why is the trend of "Pokemon is ruined" a popular thing to think? Not going to lie I barely read these posts anymore because none of them ever make sense. Why is Pokemon getting ruined because of these changes? Are you guys really that opposed to change?

It's not a trend, it's a part of the fandom. Every time we get a new gen there are always people that say that the series is ruined. Probably the biggest one in memory is the release of Ruby and Sapphire. GB/GBC games were unable to communicate with GBA games in any way, which basically meant that all of your 1st and 2nd gen Pokemon were stuck there. Additionally only 67 of the previous 251 Pokemon were available, and suddenly the Pokedex had a different numbering system, making some people think that 184 Pokemon were retconned out of existence(Luckily cheat devices eventually revealed they were in the coding, but no one could figure out how they would be obtained due to how the series had worked previously since in Pokemon GSC certain iconic kanto Pokemon were only obtainable by trading with 1st gen).

Eventually things settled down and people accepted that the Gameboy Advance games were starting everything anew(Enough so that some thought Diamond and Pearl would be incompatible with the 3rd gen games when they were first announced).

 

[Rai]

The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

 

[janejane6178]

The Pokemon series has used the same formula for literally 20 years... I think it is healthy for the game to get an overhaul. Making changes isn't going to kill Pokemon... it's actually going to help keep it alive.

I think that changes might be good but ONLY if they r for the best.
I dont have problem with the new formula as long as its challenging and intruging enough.

 

[Thunderflare]

Couldn't have said it better, myself. {:3}

Everything about Sun/Moon feels like a ploy on GF's part to reinvent Pokémon into something it isn't and compete with other franchises (like Yo-Kai Watch). I can see why they're doing it--Gens 5 and 6 sold below expectations--but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And, I'm not sure if it will even be successful. Alienating your core fanbase to chase after one that may not even exist usually isn't the best idea.

Judging by the overwhelmingly possitive reaction to any and all Sun and Moon news, it seems like they are not alienating their core fanbase, but appealing to them. Pokemon Go has been a monumental success and Game Freak is using that to remind people that Pokemon is still a thing and has been growing up. But you seem to think all Pokemon fans don't want to grow up because they're ToysRus kids or something.

1) I know that RSE and FRLG happen at the same time, as do DPPt and HGSS, with small variations. However, even though I have friends who swear by the multiverse theory, I don't remember it ever being confirmed that RBY and FRLG are separate timelines. This is, however, a fan theory that fits the overall scheme of things, even though I don't like it much (because it means I have to acknowledge the existence of ORAS).

2) Pokémon sure ain't dying! What I said is that Pokémon as we know it is dying. The games could be enjoyable to play, but they would lack the "feel" that Pokémon games usually have. Most cities in Pokémon exist because of the gyms themselves. An example of highly rated game in the series that spiced things up a little was BW. In BW the Champion is the leader of the evil team, and, on top of that, you're treated to another battle with the "real" leader. This is one of my favorite pairs in the series and it did change A LOT in the formula, but it still felt like a familiar Pokémon game with the characteristics we've grown used to.

3) I think the biggest reason for me not to get Sun/Moon is not really the disenchantment but real world issues (monetary). Recent events made it difficult for me to buy any 3DS games. That being said, I don't think I "hate" it as much as I "dislike" it. BW had it much worse IMO. People were hating the new mons left and right! As well as the inability to play with the old ones until after finishing the game.

4) Arbok (and Vivillon) change pattern depending on region, but this was never shown in the game (relative to Arbok), and it surely has never changed Arbok's type and stats across regions.

5) I believe most of the new things for 7th gen aren't really additions but side steps and/or replacements. If they abandon the concept of Mega Evolution, Z-Crystals will feel like a side step, as they are mechanically effectively the same, only with a different effect. Alolan Forms are a side step because there's a good chance the new forms are better in battling, rendering the old ones useless. You wouldn't argue that a Ice/Fairy Ninetales is vastly superior to a Fire one, right? Even if they replaced only the type and moves, I believe it'd be enough to turn Ninetales into a star overnight. Classic Ninetales is PU now, no one will use it. Same with a bunch of other forgotten Pokémon getting new Alolan Forms. I don't expect Raticate to become OU but Normal/Dark is much better than pure Normal (you get two immunities, for a start). I already had a similar feeling towards Staraptor for rendering all other birds obsolete when it came out. Alolan Forms are the next level of replacement. You replace a Pokémon with itself, except it actually isn't itself because it has different stats and typing.

6) For the record, I did enjoy XY and thought they conveyed an interesting message. :P

1: So you don't even want to admit that ORAS are canon? Well to bad, princess. They're canon whether you like them or not. And does that mean you hate a fan theory just because most of the evidence comes from those games? That sounds really petty and egotistical.

2: In Pokemon Go, there are no gyms. Despite being completely against that formula, it has more than 500 million downloads, surpassing all other free-to-play games. Its quite clear that the Pokemon themselves are what matters most to people. The purpose of the gyms was to teach people how the game works, a role that can easily be taken by a school or a mentor. I understand being concerned with these changes, but don't pre-judge the game. You haven't even played the demo.

3: Well, that's a perfectly rational reason not to get the game. You'll also be able to see how the game does overall before buying it (or not buy it, if it turns out awful).

4: Which made the alternate forms pointless for anyone except for completionists. Tell me what do I get for having all forms of Unown? Certainly not 28 great Pokemon. Makes more sense to differentiate the forms by more than just looks.

5: The reason they took so long to talk about Mega-evolution is because they had a ton of NEW stuff they wanted to show off. There seem to be no new megas and they want to bring in some new mechanics, so why focus on stuff they aren't even going to improve? They wanted to show how Sun and Moon were different first. Now to explain each new feature to you.

How are Z-moves like Mega-evolution? Both do require an item to be held by the Pokemon and you can only activate one per battle, so they are similar that way. But Z-moves don't change the Pokemon, just give it a fifth move slot with 1 PP. Mega-evolution stays the way it is until the Pokemon drops or the battle ends. Very different mechanics, though both are built on how Pokemon battles work.

The purpose of the Alolan forms is to make different ways to use old Pokemon. They want to expand on the game in various different ways. In fact, that's a lot more like Mega-evolution than Z-moves are. The difference is that Alolan Pokemon can be used in Little Cups.

6: That's actually very telling. You seem to dislike the idea of the games getting more complex and express a liking of the most simplified and easy game in the franchise. Not that enjoying X and Y is bad, just that combined with what you say about Sun and Moon.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

 

[Ducolamia]

Why am I getting this feeling the only reason Pokémon fans here are saying they're tired of the same formula is because of how much they praise the GCN games, despite being "meh" for everyone else because of how it lacks key elements that made Pokémon fun in the first place, and wish the mainline games were more like it?

To be fair, the GCN games have their flaws, but they still have some popularity. Personally, while I like the GCN games, they aren't that huge in my experience with Pokemon. I personally don't praise the games on a pedestal( because some parts of those game haven't aged well), but I think what draws people to them is how it was a little different than something like Pokemon Stadium. It might not be much, but I speculate that people were starting to want something more of the franchise after that game came out.

I personally want a change to the franchise because while I have fun with it, I know Gamefreak can do more to make the games even better. I guess the reception people have now is that they know what they don't want, but don't know what they do want. It's probably more of a problem with any fanbase really. Some people want "this" and some people want "that".