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The Legendaries

  • 145
    Posts
    11
    Years
    • Seen May 30, 2013
    RBY
    -stationary trio
    -stationary endgame uber
    4

    GS
    -roaming trio
    -stationary uber, and a second stationary uber in the postgame
    4+1

    RS
    -stationary trio, puzzles
    -stationary uber, a second stationary uber in postgame
    -an extra roamer postgame
    4+2

    DP
    -stationary/roaming trio
    -stationary uber
    -postgame has a roamer, second stationary uber, 2 stationary extras (one requiring transfer of legends from past games)
    4+3(+1)

    BW
    -stationary trio
    -an extra roamer
    -stationary uber, a second one in postgame (and another if you manage trading the roamer counterpart)
    5+1(+1)

    In a simplification, not much has changed. Current gen you come across ~3 more legends in a casual playthrough than at the sole beginning of the franchise.
    Note also that mascots have had their catch rates increased to 45 or something in the last few gens.

    If the regular main games of the recent generation had you catch a stationary trio, a roaming trio, 6 ubers/mascots, aaaand 7 extra postgame legends, (so like 20 legendaries) I would say you have a point. But its not half as bad and pretty much like its always been.

    The only serious change is the additions of ~3 event legends that are handed out to keep the generation alive for some time. And those you don't even have to actually catch most of the time.


    And about
    "Suicune's side-quest in Crystal was interesting, why not add similar stuff to other games."
    I thought they did... adding puzzles to solve to access golems, have Groudon/Kyogre appear and escape before you later actually encounter them, having to check out the lake guardians for the spear pillar event to take place.. and I don't know whether you got a chance to play BW2 yet, but how you meet the musketeers there reminded me particularly of Suicune.

    True, but when it comes to the legendary ratio, many late gens seemed to put nearly 3 times as many legends/total Pokemon than the first gen,

    What I meant by that would be actually side-quests, like going to X, battling Y, then going to Z. Such as instead of finding Articuno on Seamfoam, the player would have to initiate a quest in a house somewhere, then do a series of events to find it, or at least putting it in the main story somehow. Puzzles like the regis are fun, but do not last long.
    Then again, I wouldn't mind so many legendary Pokemon if their catch rate was increased (Such as Dialga&Palkia with 30 and Zekrom&Reshiram with 45.)
     

    Murkrow

    Nasty Plotting
  • 576
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Nov 13, 2023
    Look at RBY. If you are playing it for the first time back in those days with no internet connection or mag info watsoever, would you know that Zapdos exist? how about mewtwo? Mew?
    Now you go to seafoam island without knowing that articuno exist. After some searching you saw this weird OW sprite in a deep dank undersea cave...Oh wow you found a legendary!
    The intrinsic value of catching legends was much better as they are not revealed at all and requires some searching in order to find them. note these applies to ALL legends in RBY when it only applies to a few (or none at all) in later gens

    RBY has no mascot legends unlike now, where mascot legends are ALL now given to you on a silver platter.
    (Srsly i was disgusted in B2W2 by how they just throw legends like Virizion,cobalion,kyurem into the trainer's face for them to catch like nothing, without the need to search/sidequest)

    There are too many legends now that involves crazy powers (controling weather/space/time/GOD) that even suspension of disbelief would not make you think they can actually exist and yet be so easily caught by trainers. (Arceus? God? lol in the master ball u go).

    This seriously wrecks and cheapens the value of capturing legends. I dont even care about them anymore outside of competitive battling.
     
  • 283
    Posts
    12
    Years
    • Seen Apr 14, 2013
    Look at RBY. If you are playing it for the first time back in those days with no internet connection or mag info watsoever, would you know that Zapdos exist? how about mewtwo? Mew?
    Now you go to seafoam island without knowing that articuno exist. After some searching you saw this weird OW sprite in a deep dank undersea cave...Oh wow you found a legendary!
    The intrinsic value of catching legends was much better as they are not revealed at all and requires some searching in order to find them.

    Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres weren't revealed before you find them because they had no backstory. They were just there, doing nothing, representing nothing, simply waiting to be captured like the 2 Snorlax in RBY were. Personally, I think the Legends that are involved in the main storylines are given a far greater purpose, which makes them feel more special. Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem just seem much more Legendary seeing as how important they are to the Gen 5 games than Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres did in Gen 1.

    note these applies to ALL legends in RBY when it only applies to a few (or none at all) in later gens

    Some like to point out how great the Kanto birds were because they had no backstory, while saying any Legend after Gen 2 with no backstory is terrible. Yet, most Legendary Pokemon (if not all of them) after Gen 1 had some kind of backstory, regardless of how small it was.

    RBY has no mascot legends unlike now, where mascot legends are ALL now given to you on a silver platter.

    What? I've always had to capture my Legend, though I use my Master Ball on it. (Something I've always done)

    (Srsly i was disgusted in B2W2 by how they just throw legends like Virizion,cobalion,kyurem into the trainer's face for them to catch like nothing, without the need to search/sidequest)

    You don't have to catch them. Nor are they certainly easy. I've had very few easy captures when it comes to Legendary Pokemon.

    There are too many legends now that involves crazy powers (controling weather/space/time/GOD) that even suspension of disbelief would not make you think they can actually exist and yet be so easily caught by trainers. (Arceus? God? lol in the master ball u go).

    Arceus is not God, nor is it a god of any kind. It is a Pokemon, just like Pikachu (though, a VERY powerful one that has creation powers)

    Also, Legendary Pokemon are said to only appear before trainers that they deem worthy of using their great powers. So, if Arceus appears before you and you catch it, it wouldn't mind.

    Not really sure how any new Pokemon or Legend is any more "believeable" than anything from Gen 1 though...

    This seriously wrecks and cheapens the value of capturing legends.

    If I have a 1st edition Charizard card from the TCG, but also get a 1st edition Venusaur, does that mean my Charizard card is less valuable now? No. Both cards are rare, regardless of whether I have both of them or not. And in the games, there is only 1 of each Legend and thanks to version exclusives, you won't even encounter all of them, making Reshiram rarer for people who buy White and Black 2.

    I dont even care about them anymore outside of competitive battling.

    The games would be a lot less interesting without the Legends. Gen 1 was as basic a story as you could get, but having the Legends be a part of the story made things interesting and made some of them more mysterious.
     

    MiTjA

    Poké-atheist
  • 587
    Posts
    19
    Years
    Look at RBY. If you are playing it for the first time back in those days with no internet connection or mag info watsoever, would you know that Zapdos exist? how about mewtwo? Mew?
    Now you go to seafoam island without knowing that articuno exist. After some searching you saw this weird OW sprite in a deep dank undersea cave...Oh wow you found a legendary!
    The intrinsic value of catching legends was much better as they are not revealed at all and requires some searching in order to find them. note these applies to ALL legends in RBY when it only applies to a few (or none at all) in later gens

    RBY has no mascot legends unlike now, where mascot legends are ALL now given to you on a silver platter.
    (Srsly i was disgusted in B2W2 by how they just throw legends like Virizion,cobalion,kyurem into the trainer's face for them to catch like nothing, without the need to search/sidequest)

    There are too many legends now that involves crazy powers (controling weather/space/time/GOD) that even suspension of disbelief would not make you think they can actually exist and yet be so easily caught by trainers. (Arceus? God? lol in the master ball u go).

    This seriously wrecks and cheapens the value of capturing legends. I dont even care about them anymore outside of competitive battling.

    The first part is really only true for mascots, and otherwise depends very much on how much you spoil yourself through fansites.

    The mascots started with GS which was essentially a second part to RBY, so its not like they desperately forced that gimmick on the games just now.

    Same for trios. With GSC, you meet them in the burned tower halfway through your adventure, not in some hidden secret place.
    And even then, how were the birds any more secret than the musketeers in BW for example?
    You had to go through the Seafoam islands, and through Victory road, any serious player would have researched them well enough to find these fellas in them, while in BW, Cobalion is in Mistaltron Cave which is completely easy to miss, while Terrakion is basically the same idea as Moltres...

    That Arceus is a god is your own interpretation which I dont share. You even made a counterargument yourself "God? lol in the master ball u go". Its no god. It can create a Dialga under special circumstances, but even for that feat it needs the help of hundreds of Unown.

    Causing sunshine and heavy rainfall is not that crazy, is it?
    Thats 3 of them. Then the only ones left to freak you out is the dimension legends of DPt. Alright, being able to manipulate dimensions is quite something, but its not the norm.
     

    Murkrow

    Nasty Plotting
  • 576
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen Nov 13, 2023
    Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres weren't revealed before you find them because they had no backstory. They were just there, doing nothing, representing nothing, simply waiting to be captured like the 2 Snorlax in RBY were. Personally, I think the Legends that are involved in the main storylines are given a far greater purpose, which makes them feel more special. Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem just seem much more Legendary seeing as how important they are to the Gen 5 games than Articuno, Zapdos and Moltres did in Gen 1.

    Eh, mewtwo and especially Mew weren't revealed either, but they have a very interesting backstory (a good one that is much better than some of the other backstories of the later gens IMO) that the player can investigate for themselves (cinnabar house). And like i said its silly if they just throw legends at you without the need to search or find clues (ie.regis in gen 3) to catch. Have you played B2W2? Virizion literally just hopped right into your path begging to be captured. Does Zapdos do that? Mewtwo? MEW? Or the Regis? All three elemntal dogs?

    Some like to point out how great the Kanto birds were because they had no backstory, while saying any Legend after Gen 2 with no backstory is terrible. Yet, most Legendary Pokemon (if not all of them) after Gen 1 had some kind of backstory, regardless of how small it was.

    If you considered the pokemon movie 2000 as canon, the Kanto birds do have some form of backstory (albeit a small one, but like u said, it IS a backstory)

    What? I've always had to capture my Legend, though I use my Master Ball on it. (Something I've always done)

    if you a pokemon that can control time and space, you must be a wimp to submit to some puny trainer's mundane contraptions without some major understanding of any sorts.
    My point is that they have gone overboard with the descriptions they give to legendaries nowadays. Of course gamefreak's audience are kids so its still acceptable to do that to ramp up the hype for the mascot legendaries, boosting sales. Kids would generally believe anything.


    You don't have to catch them. Nor are they certainly easy. I've had very few easy captures when it comes to Legendary Pokemon.

    My point is that they are handing them to you on a silver platter, these legendaries being chucked at you like nobody's buisness. Whatever happened to the adventure spirit? Isnt this game suppose to be about exploring new regions. Whats the point of exploring when some legendary can show up on a common place/route where presumably most other NPCs can roam?


    Arceus is not God, nor is it a god of any kind. It is a Pokemon, just like Pikachu (though, a VERY powerful one that has creation powers)

    Dont ask me, ask gamfreak. they define it to have as such and therefore have creation powers.
    So something that just created an entire world from scratch is not deemed a God in your opinion? Something that creates the fabric of our universe submits itself to a man-made creation in the form of a Master ball? Btw i didnt like the arceus movie cos of this point.

    Also, Legendary Pokemon are said to only appear before trainers that they deem worthy of using their great powers. So, if Arceus appears before you and you catch it, it wouldn't mind.

    LOL? You realize anyone that plays pokemon (your so-called deemed worthy) would get the chance to do that anyway? Which one wouldn't?


    Not really sure how any new Pokemon or Legend is any more "believeable" than anything from Gen 1 though...

    any and every pokemon requires a suspension of disbelief, not just legendaries.


    If I have a 1st edition Charizard card from the TCG, but also get a 1st edition Venusaur, does that mean my Charizard card is less valuable now? No. Both cards are rare, regardless of whether I have both of them or not. And in the games, there is only 1 of each Legend and thanks to version exclusives, you won't even encounter all of them, making Reshiram rarer for people who buy White and Black 2.

    fallacy. you are making a comparison that has nothing to do with my point.

    The games would be a lot less interesting without the Legends. Gen 1 was as basic a story as you could get, but having the Legends be a part of the story made things interesting and made some of them more mysterious.

    Now, you saying gen1 has no legends? Gen1 has legends. Dont make assumptions without even playing it before.

    Causing sunshine and heavy rainfall is not that crazy, is it?
    Thats 3 of them. Then the only ones left to freak you out is the dimension legends of DPt. Alright, being able to manipulate dimensions is quite something, but its not the norm.

    Hmm tell me when mankind have the power to change weathers on the whim like the weather duo. No more natural disasters from typhoons or droughts when we can just reverse it easily, saving countless lives from suffering and death

    Basically the point i was trying to make is that i appreciate having more legendaries in pokemon games, but at least

    1) make unique backstory that does not have to coincide with the main plot
    so far its always have been "evil team try to control me, so protag must save me from evil team and thus earn my trust to capture me"
    have more original concepts (look at final fantasy/dragon quest)

    2)have quests/miniquests that allows you to discover the legendary for yourself through exploring/minigame (ie. regis trio).
    not just waiting for it to pop into a route without you needing to do anything AT ALL or some wifi event.
     
    Last edited:
  • 283
    Posts
    12
    Years
    • Seen Apr 14, 2013
    Eh, mewtwo and especially Mew weren't revealed either, but they have a very interesting backstory (a good one that is much better than some of the other backstories of the later gens IMO) that the player can investigate for themselves (cinnabar house). And like i said its silly if they just throw legends at you without the need to search or find clues (ie.regis in gen 3) to catch. Have you played B2W2? Virizion literally just hopped right into your path begging to be captured. Does Zapdos do that? Mewtwo? MEW? Or the Regis? All three elemntal dogs?

    Mewtwo and Mew did have a backstory (even though Mew was originally just a joke added to the game at the last minute), but the Kanto birds did not.

    To be honest, the puzzle to get the Regis was too much. I doubt anyone managed to figure it out without looking it up on the internet.

    And with Virizion, they're promoting the Kyurem/Keldeo movie events. You need all 3 Swordsmen to get the new Keldeo form, so that's probably why they want you to catch them. Doesn't make them less special though, it should make it more exciting to encounter it because those not expecting it will be surprised.

    If you considered the pokemon movie 2000 as canon, the Kanto birds do have some form of backstory (albeit a small one, but like u said, it IS a backstory)

    The movie and the games aren't the same. The Kanto birds have no relation at all with Lugia in the games.

    if you a pokemon that can control time and space, you must be a wimp to submit to some puny trainer's mundane contraptions without some major understanding of any sorts.

    As I said, the Legends are fine with it, otherwise, they'd just disappear after you save them, but they don't. It's been said in-game that the Legends wish to test the hero trainer's power.

    My point is that they have gone overboard with the descriptions they give to legendaries nowadays. Of course gamefreak's audience are kids so its still acceptable to do that to ramp up the hype for the mascot legendaries, boosting sales. Kids would generally believe anything.

    A mouse that shoots electricity from its cheeks isn't overboard already?

    My point is that they are handing them to you on a silver platter, these legendaries being chucked at you like nobody's buisness. Whatever happened to the adventure spirit? Isnt this game suppose to be about exploring new regions. Whats the point of exploring when some legendary can show up on a common place/route where presumably most other NPCs can roam?

    But they aren't being "handed" to you, you still have to battle and capture them. That is the whole focus of the games after all. The adventure spirit is still there, forced encounters don't change that considering most of the Legends aren't forced encounters anyway.

    Dont ask me, ask gamfreak. they define it to have as such and therefore have creation powers. So something that just created an entire world from scratch is not deemed a God in your opinion? Something that creates the fabric of our universe submits itself to a man-made creation in the form of a Master ball? Btw i didnt like the arceus movie cos of this point.

    Game Freak has never called Arceus God or a god. It may have potentially "god-like" abilities, creating the world and the Sinnoh dragons, but it is still a Pokemon.

    Also, the people of the Pokemon universe don't worship it as a god, they respect it for its power, as they do with other Legendary Pokemon.

    And I'm sure if Arceus was captured in a PokeBall, it would just break free IF it wanted to. I think you're assuming it is being held against its will.

    LOL? You realize anyone that plays pokemon (your so-called deemed worthy) would get the chance to do that anyway? Which one wouldn't?

    You realize the player characters in the games aren't us? In RBY, we ALL are Red, not ourselves. That's why character customization in the games probably won't ever happen. Everyone can't be the chosen hero, so we all play as the same character.


    any and every pokemon requires a suspension of disbelief, not just legendaries.

    Exactly, so why is a time-controlling dragon unacceptable, but an electric mouse is?

    fallacy. you are making a comparison that has nothing to do with my point

    Explain then. Having 2 rare items, if they are different, doesn't decrease the value of either of them. If you could catch 2 or 3 Reshiram, or Lugia or Mewtwo, they wouldn't be as rare. But you don't, you only get 1.

    Having 3 Reshiram is one thing.
    Having 1 Reshiram, 1 Zekrom and 1 Kyurem is another. It isn't the same.

    Does Big Foot or the Yeti make the Loch Ness monster or the Chupacabra seem less mythical? No. They're all separate mythical creatures. They are our real versions of Legendary Pokemon.

    Now, you saying gen1 has no legends? Gen1 has legends. Dont make assumptions without even playing it before.

    I still have the original Yellow and Red games for the Game Boy. I've beaten them plenty of times over the years. I said the games don't feel as deep without involving the Legends as part of the storyline.


    Hmm tell me when mankind have the power to change weathers on the whim like the weather duo. No more natural disasters from typhoons or droughts when we can just reverse it easily, saving countless lives from suffering and death

    Well, they're Legendary Pokemon, they're supposed to have powers beyond those of normal Pokemon. Why is that unacceptable? And how is humans controlling the weather anything like Pokemon? Humans would need technology for that. For the Pokemon, they are born with those abilities. Totally different.

    Basically the point i was trying to make is that i appreciate having more legendaries in pokemon games, but at least

    1) make unique backstory that does not have to coincide with the main plot

    The Legends involved in the plot usually have the most backstory, so I don't see your argument here.

    so far its always have been "evil team try to control me, so protag must save me from evil team and thus earn my trust to capture me"
    have more original concepts (look at final fantasy/dragon quest)

    Why should Pokemon be like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest? Pokemon seems to be doing just fine being Pokemon.

    2)have quests/miniquests that allows you to discover the legendary for yourself through exploring/minigame (ie. regis trio).
    not just waiting for it to pop into a route without you needing to do anything AT ALL or some wifi event.

    Again, if you haven't read spoilers, you won't know the Pokemon is going to be there. There really is no true difference in encountering a Pokemon on a route than meeting it in a cave. The only way it would ruin it is if you already knew it was coming.
     
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