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The Opposite Debate: The Ethics of Euthanasia

Klippy

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  • Welcome to the very first Opposite Debate! We're going to try this out, have a fun time, and hone your skills at debating!

    The premise of the Opposite Debate is simple and it's much more cohesive for a real debate, so we'll use our actual topic for the example!

    The Ethics of Euthanasia

    Euthanasia is defined as the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma. The practice is illegal in most countries.​

    The first person, Debater A, to reply to this thread starts our chain.

    Debater A argues in favor of euthanasia.​

    Whoever replies second, Debater B, will argue the opposite stance.

    Debater B argues against euthanasia.​

    So each reply we get must argue opposite to what the last poster debated.


    Hopefully this will improve your skills at debate, but also get you to recognize opposite points of view as arguable and relevant! You'll be able to debate this for a week (up until February 1). The winning side will receive a new emblem and the best debater of that side will get to choose the next Opposite Debate topic!

    If you are the first debater, feel free to argue for or against euthanasia. You don't need to argue for the point of view you agree with and it's encouraged to try and argue the opposite! Keep in mind D&D's rules and guidelines for proper debating and good luck! If you have further questions, PM/VM Livewire or Klippy. Try to keep all posts in this thread for the actual debate!​
     

    Saki

    The Fire Fox
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  • I guess I will take a quick stab at it to help set things up!

    I am for euthanasia for the following reasons:

    1) I do not see it as murder. We need to ask ourselves "what makes a person"? Is an individual in a vegetative state with little to no ability to recover a person? How is their quality of life? I don't think it's very good and I believe it is selfish to make them continue to live in that way. To me it represents a family member, spouse, etc, being unable to let go and move on.

    2) In terms of assisted suicide I truly believe it is up to the individual. It's another "quality of life" concept. If the person wants to give up, then let them. I believe there needs to be strict regulations on this for people with mental illnesses (just off the top of my head) can experience suicidal ideation (such as individuals with BPD). The process would have to consist of a) wanting to be euthanized for XX period of time without changing their mind, b) fit the criteria for an illness or ailment (for an exaggerated example having a broken arm will not due), and c) need to be of a certain age without parental consent. "C" is the most difficult as I am sure there are children who want to give up that meet other requirements, but I believe their life choices are in their parents hands. This would most likely be for people who are under the age of 16, or 18.

    3) The fear of regret. I understand that a fear of regret may lie in the person making the decision to "pull the plug", or the family of the individual making that choice for themselves. It's a very sad concept, but I think with the right processes (therapy for the family members, and ample information provided to them) this process can be managed. The fear of regret can occur in any death - planned or not.

    Note: my post is entirely opinion based. I think if we want this exercise to be fun we should progress into "perfect" arguments, so I shall leave citation and statistics for later posts. Looking forward to seeing how this goes. :)
     
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  • I guess this makes me the first against then.

    I do not see it as murder.
    That depends, by definition murder is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another" or "the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse."

    If we look at the first definition and use the example you used, a person in a vegetative state, it appears that Euthanasia is quite easy to consider murder. You don't euthanise someone as a spur of the moment thing, you consider it carefully since you're deciding that for some reason a person's life is no longer worth preserving or that they need to be released from their suffering - that's one box ticked.

    If we look at the second definition you might think that it becomes harder to call euthanasia murder since it mentions "justification or excuse". I disagree. Once again looking at your example of a person in a vegetative state, the killer (because that's what they are) believes they are justified because they are either ending the suffering of the person, or because they are a financial drain. Both of these reasons are extremely misguided.

    1. A person in a vegetative state has little to no brain function, they are well and truly alive and are capable of survival, they just have no sense of self or cognitive function. This means that they can't be suffering because they aren't even aware of their own existence. You might argue that this means they aren't aware of us killing them either, but neither is sleeping person and that's not okay either. Besides, science and technology are improving constantly and with that improvement future medical breakthroughs are all but inevitable. Already treatment with zolpidem (and that's basically just Ambien according to my earlier link to Merck Manuals) is seeing huge results.

    2. Since when has it been okay to kill someone because they cost us money? Is it okay for a struggling mother to kill her infant because she works herself to the bone to keep it alive? Hell no. This situation is pretty much the same and just as the baby will eventually grow up and be able to be helpful and self-sufficient a patient in a vegetative state might well be able to recover eventually through treatments like zolpidem, and that's just the beginning of what the future may hold.

    If we euthanise anybody, then we are taking somebody else's life into our hands and we are deciding that they deserve to die. We are playing god and elevating ourselves above other people and above human rights and that is unacceptable, especially since there is always a possibility of recovery whether we acknowledge it or not.


    In terms of assisted suicide I truly believe it is up to the individual.
    Firstly I'd like to note that I think there's a difference between euthanasia and assisted suicide. Euthanasia is "the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma" whilst assisted suicide is more like helping kill someone because they want you to.

    If a person kills themselves, then yes they have made that choice and what's done is done, why discuss it? However the moment someone else enters the equation they have a choice too. I think assisted suicide should be given more leniency than euthanasia because of the individuals willingness to die, but I also find it hard to agree with it considering that a person is knowingly and willingly taking the life of someone who poses them no threat despite medical advancement and the possibility of treatment.

    Euthanasia (not assisted suicide) should never even be considered though, because it implies that the decision was not that of the person whose life is actually at stake.

    The fear of regret.
    The promotion of more suffering -often of whole groups as opposed to just the individual who dies- is selfish and wrong. The people who end up deciding to pull the plug can suffer survivors guilt, become depressed and in some cases commit suicide and there's no guarantee that any amount of psychological therapy or comforting friends/family will stop that happening, just look at the amount of people who kill themselves whilst undergoing treatment for depression - hell this guy was so guilty that he killed himself after euthanising his dog. Yes, he was so stricken with grief at euthanising an animal, not a sentient human being even, that he killed himself. If someone was driven to suicide by the killing of a dog, imagine how euthanising your spouse, parent or sibling may affect someone.

    I also think what is talked about here should be considered.
     

    Tek

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  • Before I get into this, I'd like to point out that you don't need to cite any sources to make a logically constructed argument. Okay, moving on.

    I hope I get a chance to argue against since I *generally* support euthanasia. But I'm going to counter gimmepies' first augment against. If a person has no cognitive functioning, you can't really consider them human. At most, their basic biological regulatory functions are online, which puts them somewhere between a carrot and cheetah.

    I'm defining a human here as someone who has developed mental capacities exceeding that of other mammals. In other words, since a newborn has a neocortex but can't yet perceive symbolic thought, a newborn is an animal with the potential to become human.

    So the laws that talk about killing another human are irrelevant when we're discussing a Homo sapiens in a vegetative state. Such a person is functioning at a subhuman state.
     

    Alexander Nicholi

    what do you know about computing?
    5,500
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  • The only question I can ask is whether the patient is still sentient. For all intents and purposes (I've never been able to get a feel of a vegetable in my life so I can't be certain) they are alive and possess hsin, so I say you must not hurt them. Naturally that includes ending their life as well as other things that are damaging, but even then I am against going out of your way to "save" them. Let your thoughts out for them spiritually and hope they have fun in the postgame or whathaveyou.

    Essentially I am against euthanasia, but am also against the want to accommodate for those with conditions warranting it to begin with - this is mostly because of humans exclusivity with their own kind to use those accommodations and also the fact that a lot more can be indirectly damaged (such as once living things turned to resources, labour, etcetera) in the endeavour of "saving them from themselves." The least-hurtful thing you can do is let well enough alone.
     
    458
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  • I think the focus needs to be removed from 'euthanasia' of comatose individuals. You can argue that euthanasia and assisted suicide are not the same, but they are (it's in the definition).

    You have to remember that euthanasia is considered illegal but life support is still turned off on vegetative patients with no criminal implications, which therefore separates it from what is generally regarded as euthanasia.

    If terminally ill patients consciously experiencing pain want to die before their sickness gets worse, why not? It's thier life and therefore should be their choice. If they're going to die anyway how is it wrong or immoral to do it sooner (with less suffering) with their consent? Where does the ethical dilemma in this situation lie?

    Terminal patients don't have the luxury of waiting for a cure because the time scales they have to work with are not enough for the development of new medicines. New medicines take years to develop, not months.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • This reminds me of high school debate class, haha. I always wished we had a debate club. Of course, there's little point to this if you're not arguing the opposite of what you believe, so it's lucky that I'm responding when I am, since I personally believe people should be allowed to choose when to end their life in at least some cases.

    I think the focus needs to be removed from 'euthanasia' of comatose individuals. You can argue that euthanasia and assisted suicide are not the same, but they are (it's in the definition).

    You have to remember that euthanasia is considered illegal but life support is still turned off on vegetative patients with no criminal implications, which therefore separates it from what is generally regarded as euthanasia.
    The distinction in law comes from the fact that people in persistent vegetative states often (as in, most of the time) never come out of them. Pain, however, is a much more vague concept. It's subjective and often subsides with time, in some cases altogether. Our ideal system always prioritizes long-term health over short-term and the big thing is that we don't want to end someone's life if they still might be able to enjoy their life further down the line. People who will likely never wake up again are likewise highly unlikely to ever have the chance to regret having their life ended, so it's a lot less difficult of a decision.

    If terminally ill patients consciously experiencing pain want to die before their sickness gets worse, why not? It's thier life and therefore should be their choice. If they're going to die anyway how is it wrong or immoral to do it sooner (with less suffering) with their consent? Where does the ethical dilemma in this situation lie?
    The ethical dilemma is that in many of these cases, their situation may only be temporary for whatever reason. Perhaps their condition may improve, either due to medicine or possibly some other reason. Often times, patients in severe pain aren't considering their long-term prospects, they're too caught up in their current suffering. But that suffering is often temporary. Is it ethically tolerable to comply with someone's wishes to end their own life if their ability to make decisions itself is compromised and they have a decent shot at improvement?

    Terminal patients don't have the luxury of waiting for a cure because the time scales they have to work with are not enough for the development of new medicines. New medicines take years to develop, not months.
    In many cases, this is true. But this isn't universally true. In other instances, these new treatments do come out during their life and can sometimes lead to vast improvements in condition.

    Either way, terminal patients are not the only sort in question.
     
    2,138
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  • This reminds me of high school debate class, haha. I always wished we had a debate club. Of course, there's little point to this if you're not arguing the opposite of what you believe, so it's lucky that I'm responding when I am, since I personally believe people should be allowed to choose when to end their life in at least some cases.



    The distinction in law comes from the fact that people in persistent vegetative states often (as in, most of the time) never come out of them. Pain, however, is a much more vague concept. It's subjective and often subsides with time, in some cases altogether. Our ideal system always prioritizes long-term health over short-term and the big thing is that we don't want to end someone's life if they still might be able to enjoy their life further down the line. People who will likely never wake up again are likewise highly unlikely to ever have the chance to regret having their life ended, so it's a lot less difficult of a decision.


    The ethical dilemma is that in many of these cases, their situation may only be temporary for whatever reason. Perhaps their condition may improve, either due to medicine or possibly some other reason. Often times, patients in severe pain aren't considering their long-term prospects, they're too caught up in their current suffering. But that suffering is often temporary. Is it ethically tolerable to comply with someone's wishes to end their own life if their ability to make decisions itself is compromised and they have a decent shot at improvement?


    In many cases, this is true. But this isn't universally true. In other instances, these new treatments do come out during their life and can sometimes lead to vast improvements in condition.

    Either way, terminal patients are not the only sort in question.

    To distinguish my position with yours, I agree with conclusion you have provided, that some people should be able to choose whether to end their lives provided a particular protocol to assess pain, risk, psychology, among other factors as to the patients quality years of life left (if any). However, there is no underlying principle or logic used to support the argument (it is because it is). Since, risk, pain, and prognosis, some criteria that are alluded to in your argument, are never tied to an underlying premise which then allows us to conclude, logically, that risk, pain, and prognosis should even allow for a patient to have agency in their medical care.

    Further, you assert that in an ideal healthcare system, it should ALWAYS favor long-term health rather than short term health? If cumulatively applied, then the patient with a less than favorable, by still decent chance of survival could very well then be required to supply their organs to the lives of other patients that have a better prognosis (in terms of length of quality years of life) with an organ transplant than the donor. If it is true that long term health must be considered over short term health, than the donor must then give up that organ to another person with a greater quality year of life potential. Further, medical insurance should provide a greater investment in younger population than in the elderly population with this principle.

    There are negative consequences to this principle in that it will have negative social and political implications. Negative implications, I define as those that stir volatility. Volatility arises when individuals are forced to do something against their will that causes them or their relatives harm. However, when the patient with a higher prognosis wait for a donor, their is a lesser chance that the patient and relatives will be volatile as there is a lesser degree of entitlement to the organ donation. That is, people are more volatile when something is taken away than they are when they don't receive a benefit they are not guaranteed. The theory of loss aversion.

    Further, you make the point that the patient for the sake of his own choice (implying an inherent entitlement) should be allowed to make medical decisions, however, it is not grounded in any sort of underlying principle aside from the spurious point that long-term should always be considered over short-term health decisions. What else grounds the reason as to why someone is entitled choice and agency of their life?

    I would make the case that choice of life should be granted to the patient, if medically competent, and assuming the patient has a poor prognosis and suffering pain, and the reason why is to establish agency of citizens to both deciding to live and deciding to die is based on the principle of political volatility. That is, if elderly patients are not allowed choice in the matter of choosing to live, as a young adult, they will feel less invested in their health and outlook on life presuming there is no choice to be allowed to live with certain life conditions. Further, if anyone is forced to live, the person is paying to suffer in medical costs, which may imbue them and their families a sense of volatility. And, political volatility, and forced obligation over something in which has negative impacts on their lives and others, reduces the percentage of satisfied citizens, and increases radical behavior and instigates political dissent.

    Political volatility is negative to the state and the citizens that live in it. Political instability, time, and resources are exhausted on court cases, legal proceedings, legislative deliberation, among other things on an issue in which political volatility can be better avoided. Though the counter to my point is that allowing euthanasia by choice will cause political unrest of the dissenting group, against such a legal measure. And, any wasted investment in long-term controversy and disgruntled citizens and groups lends itself to harm on society, as the wasted resources listed above could bolster quality of life (happiness) in some other form or fashion.

    That is why I will form of synthesis of your principle and my own. The reason why patients should be able to choose their own death is to procure long-term political stability, rather than short term forecasts of political volatility (for instance the race riots of the 60's were politically volatile in short-run, but reduced volatility in the long run.) Further, in establishing long-term reduced volatility, citizens are more satisfied, less divided, and therefore more happy. And happiness is the ultimate goal of collective society. There is no decision or rationale that can be made without accounting for this principle of collective happiness or "the good".
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • To distinguish my position with yours, I agree with conclusion you have provided, that some people should be able to choose whether to end their lives provided a particular protocol to assess pain, risk, psychology, among other factors as to the patients quality years of life left (if any). However, there is no underlying principle or logic used to support the argument (it is because it is). Since, risk, pain, and prognosis, some criteria that are alluded to in your argument, are never tied to an underlying premise which then allows us to conclude, logically, that risk, pain, and prognosis should even allow for a patient to have agency in their medical care.
    The underlying principle is the right to self-governance. We are questioning whether it is acceptable to limit one's personal freedoms in certain circumstances.

    You can, of course, question whether self-governance is itself a fundamental right, though I think you'd find that a difficult argument to make.
     
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  • The underlying principle is the right to self-governance. We are questioning whether it is acceptable to limit one's personal freedoms in certain circumstances.

    You can, of course, question whether self-governance is itself a fundamental right, though I think you'd find that a difficult argument to make.

    True, it's difficult to bring up the argument that self-governance is not a fundamental right, but it's not necessary.

    It's not my burden to do so, as I did not bring forth the argument. And rather, it is difficult to make the argument that self-governance is a fundamental right. And since you are arguing it's necessary that it be fundamental, yet have not provided a reason as to why it is fundamental right and pertinent in this subject, I am pointing out that omission in and of itself is sufficient. Why is it fundamental? Again, it's arguing, something is fundamental or necessary, but not providing a set of criteria or logic to support why it is fundamental and a right exactly.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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  • True, it's difficult to bring up the argument that self-governance is not a fundamental right, but it's not necessary.

    It's not my burden to do so, as I did not bring forth the argument. And rather, it is difficult to make the argument that self-governance is a fundamental right. And since you are arguing it's necessary that it be fundamental, yet have not provided a reason as to why it is fundamental right and pertinent in this subject, I am pointing out that omission in and of itself is sufficient. Why is it fundamental? Again, it's arguing, something is fundamental or necessary, but not providing a set of criteria or logic to support why it is fundamental and a right exactly.
    Well, there were a couple of reasons I said it was difficult. For one, getting into a heavy discussion about the philosophy behind human rights is rather outside the scope of this particular debate. It's also one of the foundational assumptions that our society and culture is based on.

    As for why I believe it is fundamental, that is because I believe that the ability to exert agency on the world in order to pursue our own ends is necessary in many cases to achieve happiness. There are surely exceptions, but without the ability to exercise free will and pursue our own goals, we can't improve our own lives and we're stuck with whatever hand life has dealt us. While it's possible to be happy living a passive and comatose life, I think most people would prefer to have the ability to pursue their own happiness.
     

    Klippy

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  • Okay Live and I have decided...

    the best team was...the PRO side!

    The best debater overall was The Dark Avenger! Not only was your argument extremely well-put, but it gave your team the definite win!

    A close second was gimmepie's argument, which we appreciated as well!

    Look forward to the next Opposite Debate soon!
     
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