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the thread that makes France look good

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Dark Azelf

☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    • Seen yesterday
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2374335

    big theorymon or biggest theorymon ?

    Bulky mence is such a bad joke i cant even describe.

    "Because finding room for stealth rock/ bullet punch/ scarfer/ice shard/latias/outrage/draco resist/Hippowdon/Zong/Swampert etc on my teams is way too much, also i cant predict or revenge kill it when its locked into a terribly set up fodder move i.e Outrage and force it to switch and take more sr damage!"

    Im gonna call this the "lazy policy" where battlers get lazy and cant be bothered to prepare for damn threats anymore and they wonder why they never get top and people like IPL do ? Jesus pokemon isnt pokemon anymore, it should be called wussymon. Where we ban everything and end up with the following metagame : -

    Smogon Ou Ladder in 9 months said:
    Caterpie Used Tackle!
    Weedle Used Posion Sting!
    Caterpie was Poisoned !
    Player 1: God i want that suspect now!
     
    Last edited:
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    But DA, caterpie has shield dust =<

    Lol, I agree with what you're sayin' about how theorymon-y that thread is.
    Salamence's main stab locking it in, and being weak to stealth rock can pretty much keep it in check against good players/teams.
    ...not that I even care about it though, seeing as salamence is in OU ^^;
     

    Skip Shot

    I'm back. I think.
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  • That thread really brought down Smogon's reputation in my eyes lol. Smogon is really become theorymonistic and not as good as they used to be. The thread that D_A psoted is exhibit A. Here is exhibit B:

    Posted by the RestTalk Metagross Set Anaylsis

    To demonstrate the bulk of this set here are some calculations:
    • 24 SpA Naughty Salamence + Life Orb Fire Blast vs 252 HP / 65 SpD = 70.88% - 83.52% (2HKO)
    • 232 Atk Naughty Salamence + 1 Dragon Dance + Life Orb Earthquake vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 83.52% - 98.35%
    • 232 Atk Naughty Salamence + 1 Dragon Dance + Life Orb Outrage vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 37.09% - 43.96% (Clean 3HKO)
    • 252 Atk Adamant Lucario + 1 Swords Dance + Life Orb Close Combat vs 252 / 165 Def = 86.81% - 102.47% (15.38% of OHKO
    • 252 Atk Adamant Tyranitar + Choice Band Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 37.91% - 44.51%
    • 252 Atk Tyranitar + Choice Band Crunch vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 50.55% - 59.62% (80.67% of 2HKO w/ Leftovers)
    • 0 Atk Jolly Gliscor Earthquake vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 37.91% - 45.05%
    • 252 Atk Adamant Gyarados + Life Orb Waterfall vs 252 HP / 165 Def = 47.80% - 56.32% (25.44% chance of 2HKO w/ Leftovers)
    • 252 Atk Adamant Gyarados + Life Orb Earthquake vs 252 Hp / 165 Def = 79.67% - 93.96% (2HKO)
    • 252 SpA Naive Magnezone Thunderbolt vs 252 HP / 65 SpD = 50.27% - 59.34%

    I mean the only ones that matter there are T-Tar and Mence Outrage. Everything else 2HKOes or OHKOes :/
     

    Fire Wolf

    it's as humid as a sauna, boy!
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  • Me and Wolflare were also discussing on our Shoddy Server that PC is looking better than Smogon now lol.
     

    Dark Azelf

    ☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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    Lol, someone on Smogon made a thread about Charizard to become Uber from 1/1/10 :D

    Link lol ?

    BUT UR CHARIZARD LOSES TO MY BULKY MENCE!

    Also RMT

    Anti lead mence
    DD Mence
    Mixmence
    Dual Screen Mence
    Anti Spin Mence
    PHaze Mence
     

    Fire Wolf

    it's as humid as a sauna, boy!
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  • Don't have the link, it was posted like a month ago.
    But, almost every RMT you see is Mence weak - Haunter
    EVERYTHING LOSES TO MENCE!! MENCE > ARCEUS!
    Maybe that was too much lol.
     

    .Aero

    Tell Me I'm A Screwed Up Mess
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  • This world is coming to an end. Accept it. Maybe those Mayans were trying to predict the fall of pokemon, not the actual world itself. :P Say bye bye to pokemon in 2012. (I bet snow hurricanes can happen in the pokemon world. ;D)
     

    Skip Shot

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  • Haha nice Aero

    Looks like Philip and reach heard about my huge rant on Smogon yesterday (that kept the mods quiet). Huge response by them:
    Reachzero
    I feel that people have not really thought through "how is Salamence different from Lucario, Magmortar, etc.?" When we talk about "preparing for Salamence" it is qualitatively different from preparing for "obviously OU" threats like Lucario, Gyarados and Heatran. The reason is twofold.

    1. Salamence is immediately threatening to a degree that most OU sweepers are not. If the immediate response to Salamence is wrong, the opposing player will likely lose a Pokemon immediately. This is especially true in the case of "MixMence" sets, that is, sets that have Draco Meteor. This puts heavy pressure on the opposing player to switch. The fact that Salamence has base 100 speed means that there is a very large pool of Pokemon that it threatens with a very low level of risk--and unlike, say, Jirachi, it is virtually impossible to wall. Switching against Salamence is almost a necessity (especially, though not exclusively, for stall and semi-stall teams), yet switching is never safe. Most importantly, the threat of MixMence gives Dragon Dance Salamence chances to stat up that it would likely not otherwise get--for example, Skarmory will almost always switch out the the first time it sees Salamence, since most players will not risk losing Skarmory to a Fire Blast (of course, the Salamence user can always choose to Fire Blast Skarmory later if he/she needs to anyway).

    2. Salamence is incredibly difficult to revenge kill without specific priority moves.
    Again, base 100 speed is a major factor, but the real back-breaker is Dragon Dance. MixMence is at least moderated in its effectiveness by the fact that it is fairly easy to revenge kill and can even be switched into with the help of a little prediction (though that is risky, of course). Once Salamence gets a Dragon Dance, however, the list of options becomes very short. The most common (and effective) option is to use Scizor or Mamoswine to revenge kill Salamence with their powerful priority moves. Yes, I realize that Weavile can do so as well, but Weavile has difficulties in the present metagame unrelated to Salamence (and did before Scizor obtained Bullet Punch....). While this is admittedly effective, both Pokemon are relatively easy to lure out and easily walled. Scizor in particular can be virtually 100% dealt with using Magnezone. Yes, Scizor does hurt Salamence's effectiveness somewhat, but not as much as, say, Blissey affects Latios' effectiveness. One Pokemon is not sufficient in itself to keep any other in a lower tier, particularly one that is relatively easy to remove. Of course, the second method of revenging Salamence would be to use a Choice Scarfed revenge killer, yet the list of potential OU revenge killers of over base 100 speed is short--Jolteon, Azelf, Starmie, Gengar, Latias, Infernape. Yes, some of these are commonly used with a Choice Scarf (Gengar and Latias, once in a while Azelf or Infernape), yet all have clear weaknesses as revenge killers, such as being easily walled and severely hurt by Pursuit. Choice Scarfed revenge killers tend to be a poor response for Dragon Dance Salamence. The third method is to use a bulky water such as Swampert or Suicune to survive a +1 Outrage and KO back with Ice Beam; the downside is that neither can be switched safely straight into Salamence (because of the possibility of Draco Meteor), yet if the bulky water is coming in to revenge kill, the player is sacrificing most of a second Pokemon's health just to kill Salamence, which seems to me somewhat excessive.

    All of this is not to say that Salamence should necessarily be Uber. Each of the above methods works "enough" to not make Salamence an automatic win for its user. However, I believe that this provides enough evidence that Salamence is unusually difficult to deal with by OU standards that it merits status as a Suspect.
    Philip
    It seems some people think I was making "damage calc based arguments," which was not my intention, so let me clarify. I posted damage calculations to highlight the output potential that Mence has. What sets Mence apart from other threats in OU, is a combination of things, which I thought I mentioned, but it seems I was not clear enough about it in the OP.

    First of all, Pokemon like Magmortar might be able to break walls with perfect prediction, but they cannot also sweep through offensive teams like Salamence can; they lack the speed and bulk that Salamence packs which enables him to do so. The reason I felt those damage calcs were appropriate, was because I already stated that Mence will outspeed every other Pokemon in OU (unless scarfed) after a DD, and if he can do that much damage to the sturdiest walls, then he can obviously sweep through offensive teams as well.

    Of course, you can't just look at each set one-dimensionally. There are a lot of things that come into play when dealing with Salamence. Keep in mind that until you know the exact Mence set, you are in dire threat of being swept clean. The fact that each set is competitively viable and extremely potent is what separates Mence from any other Pokemon. One wrong initial switch, and that can cost you the entire match. To top it all off, every Mence "check" can be beaten by a certain Mence variant. Sure, other Pokemon can create sets that can eliminate normal "counters" to them, but they lose a lot of potential by doing so (See: Agility HP Ice Lucario). Mence, on the other hand, has sets that beat his regular counters, which do not take away from his overall destructive potential.

    I also heard mention of wrong move choices on Salamence's part forcing him to switch out, taking away from his sweeping capability, due to SR + LO + SS damage. Ignoring the fact that I don't like to assume things like SR when discussing a Pokemon's tiering status, this method of dealing with Mence only applies to variants that do not carry Roost. On top of this, let's not forget the Mence user's ability to use Rapid Spin, or trap the only resisting type to Outrage with Magnezone and kill them. I think taking such precautions on a well-thought-out Salamence team requires "little effort" to say the least, and allows Salamence to be "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame."

    Discuss?
     
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