4th Gen The three starters

[Jim]

yup, that's the myth for the monkey starter line. the penguin line is, without saying, the most easiest to understand.

but anywho, i wanted to discuss the designs of the starters: GROTLE rocks. it sucks that something like Grotle evolves into something as grotesque as Torterra. torterra isn't a bad name tho. the whole fire starter line is just plain ugly... and Piplup and Prinplup look good, but Empeleon is quite ugly.

All we need is a Fire Turtle/Tortoise and we can make a team. Just remembered. Torkoal... There is a chance there will be a Fire tortoise/Turtle/Terrapin starter next gen though
.
To be honest I think the First stage (Middle) evelution of the starters always looks the best, (With the exception of Charmeleon, Combusken, Monferno* and Prniplup)

*I don't like Chimchar, Monferno or Infernape.

 

[Hippo]

Ok. Here is an intresting question. Battle wise. What are the advantages of each of the starter pokemon and their fully evolve forms?

The reason I am asking is because I am having a hard time figuring out which one to pick. I know I am not going to pick Chimchar because it just to me seems like Blaziken but with punches so yeah. More leaning towards the little turtle dude, turtwig.

Yeah... the monkey like it just too muck like blaziken. same type and everything... I also don't like their names.
I think the Turtwig line has the best names, Torterra is great, IMO. I don't like the Final Water guy's name, i think Nepoleon would cry...
I'll prob pick water or grass, and probably water because i like them more... (Blastoise all the way!)

 

[RLan69]

I'm choosing Chimchar as my starter for Pearl (Pearl's first, simply b/c it has Misdreavus :D), Piplup for Diamond, and Turtwig for "Opal" (they're gonna make a third one, it's gonna center around Giratina, who's supposed to be based the gemstone "opal"). I'm choosing Chimchar as my first startr, simply b/c, other than Ponyta, there are LITERALLY NO Fire Pokemon until after you beat the Elite Four! Believe me, I've checked! Fire definitely needs a slew of new Pokemon, and Water needs to slow down, since, if you choose five random Pokemon, chances are at least one of them is a Water type. Emploeon's my favorite since it's Mecha-Godzilla as a Penguin :D

 

[eeVee.]

I'm gonna choose Pochama as my starter in Pearl. I don't like its US name (aka Piplup). It just doesn't match somehow. :/ Chimchar and its evolutions are just another copy of Torchic and its evolutions, which is quite boring.. :( I don't really like Turtwig for some reason... part of it is because of its name. It doesn't sound appealing to me at ALL. :x I do like that it's final evolution is part ground type though.

~eeVee.

 

[Obelisk]

i usually choose the water types but i think im gonna change it up in d/p and pic turtwig

 

[Black Dragonite]

starters

i don't know these new pokemon could've been better, but uh i started with grass starter and he was pretty good but i wanna try the fire monkey just because there seems to be a shortage of fire pokemon in d/p that and blaziken was pretty good in r/s, and the water starter looks cool as the 1st form but uh after that he looks kinda funky

 

[BlackLabel-Atreyu]

umm couple things icha... fire IS effective on ground types, just not SUPER effective. you confused ROCK with GROUND. so yes, dotaitos will be weak to fire attacks nonetheless.

also, steel is NOT resistant to electric. electric is x1 vs steel, but steel is half vs electric.

my opinion on the designs: they are explainable, but unnecessary. the whole idea is that the three of them are mythological creatures in reference to different cultures. for instance, doitaitos is an example of the "earth" turtoise who's shell is the earth's surface and from which plants grow. this goes along with native american myths.

I thank you for making that clear, man, honestly, thank you.

Now, as for the starters. Did anyone ever think about the types that the final forms have?
Okay, Monferno, a fire/fighting, yes, BUT best choice secondary, for the steel add on to the water starter. As fighting is super effective on steel and all.
And steel on the water, good for resisting grass damage.
Plus, the fire fighting was the best they could come up with people, I mean, they'd have to have made the second type on it electric or grass in order to deal with the water thing, ya know?
Mmk and ground, is for damage on the fire type, not resistance. Obvious, yeah?
And also, the ground on Torterra makes for water to do normal damage, instead of not very effective damage.
They're trying to make it so you don't get your behind handed to you against your rival's starter, and for once battle starter to starter.
So stop complaining already, it's a brilliant idea, I think.

Also, I think they are all awesome looking and original.
But I don't like monkeys...... so yeah, most likely not Chimchar.
But I'm getting two games, and Turtwig and Piplup are left, so yay!
I only need two, and I have my two favorites in mind.

Plus, sense people are talking about stats.
Empoleon has the highest sp. attack of any starter to date.
And Torterra has the highest defense of any starter to date.
Monferno, not so lucky, haha, but still, awesome stats.
So they're all good.
But Turtwig's my first choice.

Much, much, too long.

 

[Black Dragonite]

yeah thats why i picked turtwig in the first place because he's a ground type in the end, and that takes can fire and steel out

 

[c_dog]

I didn't say that I've never heard of the story. I'd just never heard that comparison before. ...And, by extension, you were comparing the two.

And don't use Wikipedia to try to back up something when you're talking to me. It's not a reliable source at all.

I wouldn't encourage citing wikipedia when handing in your paper, but some, actually most of the entries are quite good, and even have references. I suppose I could suggest that you read a translated copy of "Journey to the West" if you want.

In some ways I'm quite surprised it's the first time you heard that comparison, because if you've heard of the story at all, you probably know Sun Wu Kong, and if you know Sun Wu Kong, you'd see that Goukazaru is practically identicle in terms of his look to Sun Wu Kong. If you've seen any illustrations of Sun Wu Kong at all, from past to present, you'd see that Goukazaru is a complete imitation. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

I suppose Sun Wu Kong isn't very well known in English culture though, and aside from a thread inside a pokemon forum, whose sole purpose is to discuss the new D/P starters, you probably won't see Goukazaru discussed much anyway. If you hadn't heard of that comparison before, well, now you have.

 

[Samson]

Now, as for the starters. Did anyone ever think about the types that the final forms have?
Okay, Monferno, a fire/fighting, yes, BUT best choice secondary, for the steel add on to the water starter. As fighting is super effective on steel and all.
And steel on the water, good for resisting grass damage.
Plus, the fire fighting was the best they could come up with people, I mean, they'd have to have made the second type on it electric or grass in order to deal with the water thing, ya know?
Mmk and ground, is for damage on the fire type, not resistance. Obvious, yeah?
And also, the ground on Torterra makes for water to do normal damage, instead of not very effective damage.
They're trying to make it so you don't get your behind handed to you against your rival's starter, and for once battle starter to starter.
So stop complaining already, it's a brilliant idea, I think.

yeh, i've thought of the balance of the types, but there's still an unbalance in the variation of *different* attacks between them. Empoleon is at a disadvantage with this:

Infernape: Fighting attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Fire attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Fighting attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Fire attacks vs Torterra = X 2
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+1+2= 6

Torterra: Ground attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Ground attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Inernape = X .5
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+2+.5= 5.5

Empoleon: Water attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Steel attacks vs Infernape = X .5
Water attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Steel attacks vs Torterra = X 1
Total Effectivity Points = 2+.5+1+1= 4.5

we must then also look at the stats, and Infernape has a high Attack, Sp Attack, and Speed, making it great for both physical AND special sweeping. its defense and sp defense are low in comparison, but against past generational pokemon, it can definitely take some hits. base stats come to a total of 534 points.

torterra has a high attack and defense (how obvious) and a somewhat high hp (it might as well just be a ground type ._.). it has a very low speed and a depressingly low special defense for a huge turtle. base stats come to a total of 525 points.

empoleon has a high special attack and special defense, but a surprisingly low speed. the rest of its stats are average. base stats come to a total of 530 points.

so as you can see, torterra is at a disadvantage here, but if you take it's Level Up moves into account, most of them are special, and puts it at even more of a disadvantage.

so to sum it up, infernape is at the greatest advantage here, and it's quite obvious that GameFreak didn't do all it could to ensure the game of the equality between the starters. it's quite unbalanced.

 

[Forci Stikane]

which is why sources are cited... if you look at the article for it, you will find the first link will have all the supporting information.

wikipedia is not just reliable, it's awesome.[S-HIGHLIGHT] i've donated [/S-HIGHLIGHT]XD

Which is part of my point. If you can donate, then what's stopping some completely random j--er, person from coming in and changing an article?

(no offense)

In some ways I'm quite surprised it's the first time you heard that comparison, because if you've heard of the story at all, you probably know Sun Wu Kong, and if you know Sun Wu Kong, you'd see that Goukazaru is practically identicle in terms of his look to Sun Wu Kong. If you've seen any illustrations of Sun Wu Kong at all, from past to present, you'd see that Goukazaru is a complete imitation. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

Never occurred to me, that's all. My brain's been a bit slow lately (should be obvious from my previous comment about Ground being resistant to Fire X.X)...I guess the excitement is affecting my thinking processes :P . ...Which is why I say this with reservation:

yeh, i've thought of the balance of the types, but there's still an unbalance in the variation of *different* attacks between them. Empoleon is at a disadvantage with this:

Infernape: Fighting attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Fire attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Fighting attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Fire attacks vs Torterra = X 2
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+1+2= 6

Torterra: Ground attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Ground attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Inernape = X .5
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+2+.5= 5.5

Empoleon: Water attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Steel attacks vs Infernape = X .5
Water attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Steel attacks vs Torterra = X 1
Total Effectivity Points = 2+.5+1+1= 4.5

You might be looking at that in reverse. You probably shouldn't be looking at it from the attacker's perspective, but rather from the receiver's perspective, no?

Infernape:
Water-x2
Steel-x.5
Grass-x.5
Ground-x2

Torterra:
Fire-x2
Fighting-x1
Water-x1
Steel-x1

Empoleon:
Fire-x1
Fighting-x2
Grass-x1
Ground-x2

...So,...yeah, okay, Empoleon still has a disadvantage...HOWEVER, Infernape can be SE STAB'd by either of the two starters, as can Empoleon, while Torterra can't get such an attack from Empoleon's types, so one could argue that Torterra is actually on top, not Infernape (type-wise, anyway).

 

[spike6958]

im going to pick chimchar due to the amound of fire pokemon been so limited compaired to grass and water

 

[BlackLabel-Atreyu]

yeh, i've thought of the balance of the types, but there's still an unbalance in the variation of *different* attacks between them. Empoleon is at a disadvantage with this:

Infernape: Fighting attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Fire attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Fighting attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Fire attacks vs Torterra = X 2
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+1+2= 6

Torterra: Ground attacks vs Empoleon = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Empoleon = X 1
Ground attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Grass attacks vs Inernape = X .5
Total Effectivity Points = 2+1+2+.5= 5.5

Empoleon: Water attacks vs Infernape = X 2 while Steel attacks vs Infernape = X .5
Water attacks vs Torterra = X 1 while Steel attacks vs Torterra = X 1
Total Effectivity Points = 2+.5+1+1= 4.5

we must then also look at the stats, and Infernape has a high Attack, Sp Attack, and Speed, making it great for both physical AND special sweeping. its defense and sp defense are low in comparison, but against past generational pokemon, it can definitely take some hits. base stats come to a total of 534 points.

torterra has a high attack and defense (how obvious) and a somewhat high hp (it might as well just be a ground type ._.). it has a very low speed and a depressingly low special defense for a huge turtle. base stats come to a total of 525 points.

empoleon has a high special attack and special defense, but a surprisingly low speed. the rest of its stats are average. base stats come to a total of 530 points.

so as you can see, torterra is at a disadvantage here, but if you take it's Level Up moves into account, most of them are special, and puts it at even more of a disadvantage.

so to sum it up, infernape is at the greatest advantage here, and it's quite obvious that GameFreak didn't do all it could to ensure the game of the equality between the starters. it's quite unbalanced.

I tell ya man, but you've got one heck of a point there.
I mean honestly, I didn't think of it that way. But hey, they can be taught other moves than their original types.

This also goes to Ichapokemr, they can learn moves that aren't the types they are themselves. So to be fair, you should compare their types to ever type there is.
That is truely the only way to know which is best.

So I guess I'll do it, haha

Torterra:
Bug - x2
Dark - x1
Dragon - x1
Electric - x0
Fighting - x1
Fire - x2
Flying - x2
Ghost - x1
Grass - x1
Ground - x.5
Ice - x4
Normal - x1
Poison - x1
Psychic - x1
Rock - x.5
Steel - x1
Water - x1
Over all - 21

Infernape:
Bug - x.25
Dark - x.5
Dragon - x1
Electric - x1
Fighting - x1
Fire - x.5
Flying - x2
Ghost - x1
Grass - x.5
Ground - x2
Ice - x.5
Normal - x1
Poison - x.5
Psychic - x2
Rock - x1
Steel - x.5
Water - x2
Over all - 17.25

Empoleon:
Bug - x.5
Dark - x.5
Dragon - x.5
Electric - x2
Fighting - x2
Fire - x1
Flying - x.5
Ghost - x.5
Grass - x1
Ground - x2
Ice - x1
Normal - x.5
Poison - x0
Psychic - x.5
Rock - x.5
Steel - x.25
Water - x.5
Over all - 12.25

So that is where Empoleon wins.

Thus, proving my earlier point, that they did the type thing to make them even.
But, it did take three different points of view to even them out.
But still, they are evened out.

 

[SteelMan]

gona go with the penguin /retarted snow shovel thing

my steel team is as follows

scizor-100
steelix-83
foretress-85
registeel-89
metagross-95
magneton-89

i need a steel that can learn surf, badly


yeah i know, aggron would learn it

but if he gets hit with ground or water, hes screwed

and it would be nice to have a steel type with some kind of restitance to fire

ill proably replace m foretress with the penguin thing

evolve my magneton

evolve my nosepass and replace registeel

and replace my metagross with the legendary dialga

does anybody else here hate having a egendary in your team

there requires no training (which is half the fun) and all you do is pop a masteball on the beast

and boom instant awesomeness (feels like cheating)

so screw it i wont, ill just raise a skarmory in the next month

i just admire my scizor

ive wanted on since gold/silver

and got one

then learned no transfering to gba

when it came out

so then i caught some magnemite during ruby/sapphire era

and they were holding metal coat

and i was like what the hell

theres no onix or scyther in this game

so i held onto them and stuck one of em on my registeel and lairon

hen fire red/leaf came out and my answer was given

ive actually bread scythers and onixs and beldums and skarmory's and pinecos

and traded them onto my saphire so i could start with them

the scyther and onix i traded over had metal coat attached

so i had

scizor-5
steelix-5
beldum-5
pineco-5
skarmry-5
and aron would be caught in dark cave at whatever level

and i kicked ass in the game, even against whatever the hellt he chic fire leader is

and the elite four stood no chance

and steven got tooken down by my steelix's eartquake

so ive proven steel works

and it works ooooooo so god

so yeah thtas why im called the steel man

on a farther note

does anyone have a shiny onix,skarmory, or scyther

id trade for a shiny butterfre and venomth

just puttin thta out there for when w-lan goes on for the ds d/p

 

[SteelMan]

gona go with the penguin /retarted snow shovel thing

my steel team is as follows

scizor-100
steelix-83
foretress-85
registeel-89
metagross-95
magneton-89

i need a steel that can learn surf, badly


yeah i know, aggron would learn it

but if he gets hit with ground or water, hes screwed

and it would be nice to have a steel type with some kind of restitance to fire

ill proably replace m foretress with the penguin thing

evolve my magneton

evolve my nosepass and replace registeel

and replace my metagross with the legendary dialga

does anybody else here hate having a egendary in your team

there requires no training (which is half the fun) and all you do is pop a masteball on the beast

and boom instant awesomeness (feels like cheating)

so screw it i wont, ill just raise a skarmory in the next month

i just admire my scizor

ive wanted on since gold/silver

and got one

then learned no transfering to gba

when it came out

so then i caught some magnemite during ruby/sapphire era

and they were holding metal coat

and i was like what the hell

theres no onix or scyther in this game

so i held onto them and stuck one of em on my registeel and lairon

hen fire red/leaf came out and my answer was given

ive actually bread scythers and onixs and beldums and skarmory's and pinecos

and traded them onto my saphire so i could start with them

the scyther and onix i traded over had metal coat attached

so i had

scizor-5
steelix-5
beldum-5
pineco-5
skarmry-5
and aron would be caught in dark cave at whatever level

and i kicked ass in the game, even against whatever the hellt he chic fire leader is

and the elite four stood no chance

and steven got tooken down by my steelix's eartquake

so ive proven steel works

and it works ooooooo so god

so yeah thtas why im called the steel man

on a farther note

does anyone have a shiny onix,skarmory, or scyther

id trade for a shiny butterfre and venomth

just puttin thta out there for when w-lan goes on for the ds d/p

 

[rokman]

With Piplup's final stage being named Emploleon, I must chose it!

 

[Samson]

I tell ya man, but you've got one heck of a point there.
I mean honestly, I didn't think of it that way. But hey, they can be taught other moves than their original types.

This also goes to Ichapokemr, they can learn moves that aren't the types they are themselves. So to be fair, you should compare their types to ever type there is.
That is truely the only way to know which is best.

So I guess I'll do it, haha

Torterra:
Bug - x2
Dark - x1
Dragon - x1
Electric - x0
Fighting - x1
Fire - x2
Flying - x2
Ghost - x1
Grass - x1
Ground - x.5
Ice - x4
Normal - x1
Poison - x1
Psychic - x1
Rock - x.5
Steel - x1
Water - x1
Over all - 21

Infernape:
Bug - x.25
Dark - x.5
Dragon - x1
Electric - x1
Fighting - x1
Fire - x.5
Flying - x2
Ghost - x1
Grass - x.5
Ground - x2
Ice - x.5
Normal - x1
Poison - x.5
Psychic - x2
Rock - x1
Steel - x.5
Water - x2
Over all - 17.25

Empoleon:
Bug - x.5
Dark - x.5
Dragon - x.5
Electric - x2
Fighting - x2
Fire - x1
Flying - x.5
Ghost - x.5
Grass - x1
Ground - x2
Ice - x1
Normal - x.5
Poison - x0
Psychic - x.5
Rock - x.5
Steel - x.25
Water - x.5
Over all - 12.25

So that is where Empoleon wins.

Thus, proving my earlier point, that they did the type thing to make them even.
But, it did take three different points of view to even them out.
But still, they are evened out.

yeah, that's looking at them defensively against all the types. you'd still have to look at them offensively against all types, and i'm not in the mood XD.

and yeah, they can learn other moves aside from their types, but if you consider that those kind of resources (tms, hms and other items) are limited early on in the game (unless you have action replay), it makes the pokemon rely on their natural level up moves a lot throughout a large chunk of the game.

 

[darkcloud]

I always like the fire pokemon but in this game i guess not because chimchar isnt that great. Also I probably will get turtwig

 

[Kuri-Chan ♪]

Okies. Here we go. [Although, I don't know if anyone cares for my opinion.]

Turtwig. Fun to say, but just ugly. I don't know why, it just is. I hate it's jaw, it makes it look... I dunno. Neanderthal. And it's evolutions are no better. Grotle looks crazy, And don't even get me STARTED on Torterra.
And now, for the stats. Turtwig has awsome attack power, for a starter. Sure it will come in handy, but look at all those weaknesses! Ice will kill it, and even bug is super effective. Now, if you want to battle compeditively, that's fine, because not many people use bug. But Ice Beam is very popular, and, there goes your Torterra. But in-game, bug is popular. With a low-level Turtwig, you'll be running for help.

Chimchar. I suppose it's cute, and besides, It's a monkey! Although, I'm not very fond of it's evolutions. Monferno kinda scares me, and Infernape reminds me of, like, a Tribal Elder or somthing.
But despite this, people with Chimchar will rule the beggining of the game. It's Attack and Sp. Attack are equal, making it both amazing in Special or Physical. And with the new system, that's good to have. Say you want STAB on two attacks (I know my brother will), but one is Physical and one is Special? If we had a Pokemon with high Physical and low Special, that might pose as a small roadblock. But no problem with Infernape! It's speed is, too, even higher than it's attack power, and that's saying somthing. Yes, Chimchar is for the Competitive sweepers out there.

Piplup. I'm not too fond of the name, but just LOOK at it! It's a Penguin! I think this is the most adorable starter. But I don't really enjoy the evo's of this one, either. Prinplup is okay, but Empoleon reminds me of my fourth grade french teacher. Se always talked ablut Napoleon.
Piplup has dominating Sp. Attack. Sp. Defence is not far behind. Unfortunatly, this would have ben a lifesaver in other games, but because of the new Special/Physical split, there will be some electric-type attacks that will get through. Aww. But still, Empoleon is a fair sweeper. It can knock out Infernape with it's stats, and Sp.Att higher than Infernape. Luckily, the effectivenss of Electric is cut by Steel, and the Effectiveness of Fire is cut by Water. Of coarse, it has other weaknesses, but It's still good.

I'm going with Piplup. Ever scince I saw Pochama, I wanted one. But, like I did with Mudkip, I'm not gonna evolve it. Mm-hmmm.​

- Kuri-Chan :7:​

 

[BlackLabel-Atreyu]

yeah, that's looking at them defensively against all the types. you'd still have to look at them offensively against all types, and i'm not in the mood XD.

and yeah, they can learn other moves aside from their types, but if you consider that those kind of resources (tms, hms and other items) are limited early on in the game (unless you have action replay), it makes the pokemon rely on their natural level up moves a lot throughout a large chunk of the game.

Point well taken, but some of them do learn moves that aren't of their natural type anyway, but as far as offensively, I'd say, sense we are talking about the final forms here, that you could just teach them the moves they need to know.

But earlier on, I think I'd say either Grotle or Infernape take it, because they have the option of other moves, and as much as I hate to admit it, Infernape may be the best, because sense it does learn other moves, it has the natural move type on top of that, so its fighting moves would be more powerful.

But I think in the end, either Torterra or Empoleon take it.

Just my opinion still, but I stick to it ^.^