Uncompetitive Stuff Discussion (aka Moody, OHKO moves, Mega Rayquaza...) + Is evasion broken in Ubers?

[Khaotic Kebab]

Ugh, a brewing multiquote war. Let's try this instead:



None of us are interested in hearing about how we take the game too seriously, so don't bother.

At least not from someone who is so proudly closed-minded.

We would love to talk about tiering philosophy, as that is the thread's topic, but you are dragging it into the mud by saying that people who adhere to tiers make questionable life choices, among other things. Your rhetoric is moralistic, condescending, and disrespectful. I don't know what you are hoping to accomplish except to assert your own righteousness if you openly state to have an active disinterest in the ruleset that this thread's topical tier adheres to...

OK, whoah, hold it. When the HELL did I even SUGGEST that those who follow tiers make questionable life choices?!
Actually, forget it. I don't know where you pulled that from, and I don't care. This is getting ridiculous.

I like to think that I keep an open mind with most things. Accusing me of being closed-minded is bad enough, but for something as trivial as a game? Words cannot describe.....

For the record, you're getting pretty immature. You're so high in the Pokècommunity hierarchy and you're resorting to petty insults. You're doing your job really well.

 

[Nah]

*sigh* I probably shouldn't even bother, but.....

OK, whoah, hold it. When the HELL did I even SUGGEST that those who follow tiers make questionable life choices?!

Right here, actually:

I respect others' hobbies, of course. You're conveniently missing the term "TOO seriously". It's a kid's game, for Christ's sake. And if over-devoting yourself to such a thing isn't questionable, I don't know what is.

I like to think that I keep an open mind with most things. Accusing me of being closed-minded is bad enough, but for something as trivial as a game? Words cannot describe.....

If this is so trivial, why do you keep engaging in conversation like this? You seem to care more than you say you do.

For the record, you're getting pretty immature. You're so high in the Pokècommunity hierarchy and you're resorting to petty insults. You're doing your job really well.

I'm sorry, but your posts are not any better really. You have, and not just in this thread, routinely hurled insults at people who follow Smogon's tiering system and rulesets, and generally have failed to back up your arguments with logic and reason as well as answering certain questions.

I do not mind if there's people who dislike Smogon's metagame. I actually prefer that we have some people like that around because echo chamber threads are incredibly pointless and annoy me. I am aware that we have some people on here who tend to be dicks about this too, but that doesn't mean one should behave the same way back. Most of the people in this thread are adults, let's all try to act like it please.

Something I have a hard time understanding is why people feel the need to get disrespectful and uncivil when having a discussion about certain topics. It's not just competitive battling either. Discussions about racism, sexism, abortion, religion, etc, etc all tend to go the same way. Is it really that hard for humans to have a calm and civil discussion no matter how strongly they feel about these things?

So can we, just for once, have a calm and civil discussion about this? Or should I give up on that?

 

[wolf]

Moving on from all this poppycock, what is everyone's thoughts on trapping in general? Single battles rely heavily on switching in order to be competitive. Shouldn't abilities and moves, such as Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit, be banned for placing restrictions on switching? Do you think the metagame benefits any from these mechanics? Are they reasonable restrictions, or do they place too much importance on team matchups?

 

[Anti]

Moving on from all this poppycock, what is everyone's thoughts on trapping in general? Single battles rely heavily on switching in order to be competitive. Shouldn't abilities and moves, such as Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit, be banned for placing restrictions on switching? Do you think the metagame benefits any from these mechanics? Are they reasonable restrictions, or do they place too much importance on team matchups?

for me, i am pretty radical about trappers and tend to hate all of them, but for the sake of having a more palatable opinion, i'd say that it depends on how good the trapper is. advance dugtrio is simply far greater a threat (or cancer, arguably) than oras dugtrio is.

i think one of the best things about pokemon is its variety. i think back to oppo's tailwind battle log is a cool reminder of that/how shitty sweden is. i wish they weren't so inherently match-up based though, especially gothitelle.

but i do think that something like mag has been a healthier presence. while i think its ability is borked af, it has added an opportunity cost to using centralizing steel-type walls and revenge killers. of course, "healthy" is subjective, so it's more of a personal preference than anything.

since this is about ubers though, i'm less sure. it seems like mega gengar has been hampered a lot by opportunity cost (mence), but i am unsure how airtight this analysis actually is lol.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Moving on from all this poppycock, what is everyone's thoughts on trapping in general? Single battles rely heavily on switching in order to be competitive. Shouldn't abilities and moves, such as Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit, be banned for placing restrictions on switching? Do you think the metagame benefits any from these mechanics? Are they reasonable restrictions, or do they place too much importance on team matchups?

This looks much more engaging than the above drivel; I'm not a fan of trapping in respects to singles, but primarily because really, I'm just not a fan of singles. As you said, quite accurately, singles relies quite a bit on switching. That being said, when the only thing you can have on the field is prevented from leaving the field, (in singles) you're also barred from putting anything else on the field - and you're pretty damn well stuck in a rut. Yes; this is a thing that should be considered when building your sets. Yes; there are ways around it via shed shell, ghost types new ability (yay escape artist ghosts in 6th gen) and U Turn / Volt Switch; etc. Buuuuut, with my admittedly limited singles experience, even I recognize that you can't always or even commonly make room for on sets, or account for things like trapping on pokemon, let alone everyone on your whole team. And so long as something has the ability to trap any of your pokemon in singles, where you can only have one pokemon out at a time- you're essentially watching them have their way with you while that pokemon is stuck out, should their trapper be able to survive unthreatened by what you have out.

Oh; and as such I honestly don't see pursuit as AS significant an annoyance as Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull (magnet pull being the least obnoxious, because only a few pokemon have it, and it only applies to steel types.) and the like. Because you can still get away; accepting a fair bit of damage - to do something else.

 

[Nah]

Trapping as a concept doesn't bother me. Trapping your opponent is something you'd do in a real battle, and I don't see why that tactic can't be available to us in Pokemon battles as well. Arena Trap and Magnet Pull aren't bad imo, since the only fully evolved poke with Arena Trap is Dugtrio (who has its own problems) and Arena Trap only effects grounded pokes, while Magnet Pull only effects one type and is only available to Magnezone in OU and Probopass in NU, and again, those 2 have some flaws as well. Dunno how I feel about Pursuit.

Shadow Tag can fuck off though.

 

[Zeffy]

I'm unsure of my opinion towards trapping. Objectively, it gives a huge advantage to the trapper and it might make it seem the odds are in his or her favor. However, I don't see how this is any different from taking advantage of other battle tactics, such as an obvious switch-out. I mean, yeah Gothitelle is arguably cancer but it is match-up reliant and is basically dead weight vs an offensive team. The same can be said to Magnet Pull and Arena Trap users, although in different circumstances.

So yeah. /2cents

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Woooow, what did I just wake up to...

Regarding Shadow Tag, I don't think it's uncompetitive in Ubers, mainly due to the problems their own users have. Gengar needs to mega evolve to get this ability and even then it's not THAT powerful compared to most Ubers, since it doesn't get 130BP moves or sun-boosted Fire Punches. Then we have Gothitelle, which is completely mediocre outside of its ability, and Wobbuffet, which has one of the worst movepools known to Pokemon.

 

[skyburial]

Wobbuffet, which has one of the worst movepools known to Pokemon.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah I dunno about that. Wobbuffet is niche but not inherently bad. Its massive HP stat practically guarantees it at least 1 Counter/Mirror Coat kill, Encore discourages setting up on it, Safeguard makes stalling it out difficult, and Destiny Bond is a nice final effort to take out the big threat.

It's kinda like Shuckle. It's got a good thing it does, but it's really just the Wobbuffet thing.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I wouldnt say Goth is that match up reliant vs offense. I mean Scarf Goth Shits on stuff like Keldeo and basically eliminates "saving" pokemon. I.e oh shit my opponent has <insert pokemon i want to save" ill just Trick a scarf onto it or take it out. Also pokemon who dont appreciate a scarf are crippled by it. Trick a Scarf onto your Bisharp? Cool, good luck winning 50/50's with Sucker Punch now. Trick a Scarf onto Lati@s? Good luck maintaining the hazard control in that game and being useful/not weak/set up bait. Bascially what im saying is Goth hardly ever doesnt fuck up a component of your team with little or no effort, its a very high reward, low risk.

There are a TONNE of these scenarios. Also simply by being present, it makes components of bulky offense (CM Clef, Manaphy and CroCune anyone?), stall, most walls in the game and even components of offense (Keldeo) borderline obsolete when its present in team preview or i mean unless you're Psychic and get the game won on double switching or staying in each time. Good luck with that.

Also i would very much love to see an offensive team come back from a CM/Rest/STAB move/Reflect or Trick Room or Trick Gothitelle that has fully set up on something like Lati@s and not having a dark type.....yeaaaah. Have fun with that.

Wobbuffet does similar things but its team match up is actually amplified against offense. Want to take out your opponents choice users? NP. Want to grant free turns of set up? NP Want to borderline ALMOST guarantee 2 kills with CustapBond? Np. Want to Tickle walls to -6 and Pursuit them? N_______________P. However unlike Goth by simply just NOT attacking it, its a lot easier to remove from the game. This is for a number of reasons but ill outline them.

1. You have 5 options in the game. Move/Move/Move/Move/Switch. Gothitelle takes this to just /move/ with Trick Scarf. Scarf is permanant, Encore is not.
2. Offensive presence punishes you for not attacking Goth directly. Scarf doesnt wear off and Wobb cannot set up on this or take you out directly unless you attack it. This is HUGE.
3. Goth has Rest (so it can also struggle stall walls locked into a single weak move via Scarf).Wobb doesnt so is vulnerable to status.

Magnet Pull and Arena Trap dont trap everything so i feel these two are far less broken than STag.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Reviving this.

What do you think about EvasionPass?

 

[rob_thijs]

Reviving this.

What do you think about EvasionPass?

As much I appreciate the Evasion ban, there are many ways to work around it. There are moves that never miss: like Magical Leaf, Aura Sphere, Sacred Sword and Seismic Toss.
Also I always bring a pokémon that has Roar or Whirlwind that never misses and screws Batton Pass teams over anyway.

On the other hand you can't expect someone to have a counter to everything in a team. It's unnecessary and not fun so I'm glad it's banned in OU.

I never played Ubers so I don't know what the impact of evasion is there but I think that if there are not much answers for it, it should be banned.