VCG doubles Trick Room

[WingedDragon]

Im trying out this trick room team and I cant seem to figure out why i cant get them to do anything.

I lead with Cresselia and Liepard to set up trick room using Fake out. Providing Liepard doesnt get KOed on the first or 2nd turn I use it as a disrupter with swagger and encore. taunt is there to prevent counter trick room but it doesnt seem to live long enough to do that. Bronz and Heatran I have them exchange abilites stop their weakness, which I seem to be sucessful in doing but they dont have staying power. Ferrothorn is intended to be the water answer and more less the "heavy" leech in the team. If it cant OHKO or 2HKO. It will preserve itself but doesnt seem to have staying power either. I embedded 2 replay links for people to see what I am doing wrong.

Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 160 SDef / 96 Def / 252 HP
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Protect
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam

Scrafty @ Chople Berry
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Protect

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 HP
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Rock Slide
- Detect

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
- Superpower

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 172 SDef / 252 HP / 84 Def
Sassy Nature
- Rage Powder
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Spore

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 4 Atk / 252 HP
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Protect
- Gyro Ball


https://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-44883203

https://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-44881038

 

[PlatinumDude]

Toxic stalling may not be effective in VGCs. I'd rather have Helping Hand (to boost the power of the partner's moves) or Safeguard (to protect the team from status for 5 turns) in the third slot, with Reflect/Light Screen taking up the last slot, as VGCs tend to be too fast to make the opponent feel the full effects of Toxic poison.

Reunicus is better off with Focus Blast over Shadow Ball because dealing with Steels and Darks is more important than dealing with other Psychics.

I'd rather have Scrafty over Liepard; not only is it too fast for Trick Room, it also doesn't accomplish much, given that it lacks offensive moves besides Fake Out. Its low defenses don't help either. Scrafty, on the other hand, benefits from Trick Room, is a lot bulkier than Liepard is and provides Fake Out support as well:
-Fake Out
-Drain Punch
-Crunch
-Detect/Protect
Nature: Brave
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Item: Chople Berry
Ability: Moxie

For Bronzong, what's the point of a Brave nature if you're not using Gyro Ball? Psychic is a special move and a Psychic coming from an uninvested base 79 Special Attack is weak. Replace Psychic with Gyro Ball. I'd rather not have Bronzong Skill Swap Levitate over to Heatran because while the Earthquake weakness is detrimental to Heatran, Heatran really likes having Flash Fire to take Heat Waves with. If Earthquake is a problem for Heatran, give it Shuca Berry or Air Balloon.

As for Bronzong, replace Skill Swap with Protect or Explosion.

While it's true that Giga Drain provides Ferrothorn with recovery alongside Leech Seed, it's not recommended because Ferrothorn's Special Attack is downright terrible. Use Gyro Ball over it, and change the nature and EV spread to Relaxed with 252 HP/148 Def/108 SDef to give it some physical bulk, since most of its threats are physically based.

 

[Keiran]

You lack anything threatening, and the team is too reliant on Trick Room.

Personally I would replace Ferrothorn with Amoonguss (because Rage Powder/Spore synergizes so much better with TR), Bronzong with Tyranitar (because you're weak to weather and Imprison Chandelure) and Reuniclus with Conkeldurr.

Some other changes I would make are Toxic -> Helping Hand/Ice Beam and Psychic-> Psyshock on Cresselia, and to invest in Heatrans speed or get something faster in its place or even your own Imprison Chandelure. And Liepard needs Foul Play/Dark Gem somewhere; or even go with PDs Scrafty suggestion but with Intimidate probably.

But for now I definitely recommend you get Amoonguss/Tyranitar for Bronzong/Ferro and see how that goes;


Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Regenerator
Sassy/ 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpDef
-Rage Powder
-Protect
-Spore
-Giga Drain

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Sand Stream
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Jolly
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Ice Punch
-Superpower

 

[PlatinumDude]

You lack anything threatening, and the team is too reliant on Trick Room.

Personally I would replace Ferrothorn with Amoonguss (because Rage Powder/Spore synergizes so much better with TR), Bronzong with Tyranitar (because you're weak to weather and Imprison Chandelure) and Reuniclus with Conkeldurr.

Some other changes I would make are Toxic -> Helping Hand/Ice Beam and Psychic-> Psyshock on Cresselia, and to invest in Heatrans speed or get something faster in its place or even your own Imprison Chandelure. And Liepard needs Foul Play/Dark Gem somewhere; or even go with PDs Scrafty suggestion but with Intimidate probably.

But for now I definitely recommend you get Amoonguss/Tyranitar for Bronzong/Ferro and see how that goes;


Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Regenerator
Sassy/ 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpDef
-Rage Powder
-Protect
-Spore
-Giga Drain

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Sand Stream
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Jolly
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Ice Punch
-Superpower

While Intimidate is interesting on Scrafty, Moxie is still the preferred ability to allow Scrafty to rack up enough power to sweep through the opposition.

 

[Mackenzie]

If you're feeling lucky, you could also swap thunder wave + swagger on some of the moves of cresslia to try and par-fusion hax your opponents to death; notably swagger on most set-up users (ninetales, abomasnow, politoed, or chandelure) as they don't use their physical attacks against you if they escape from confusion.
I actually used a similar lead, you can also swap liepard for hitmontop (although i haven't used scrafty, i'm not sure if i would recommend it, as it shares bug typing weakness with cresselia) as they cover each other's weaknesses quite nicely (basically what hitmontop is having intimidate allows it to neutralize those vgc threats when you can't rely on a pokemon's will-o-wisp accuracy; it basically grants you a free turn to decrease foe's potential threatening capability and at the same time, grant cresselia a free turn to do what she wants as you fake out).

Some recommendations:
a priority move user. Like scizor's bullet punch, majority of the time, you may get unlucky and have trick room unable to be summoned, these kinds of moves basically allow you to faint potential threats to your team (dark types and fighting types) to quick ko's if you ever find yourself, being taunted; or missing useful TR's turns.

also:
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SDef / 4 Atk / 252 HP
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Protect
- Giga Drain

as mentioned in the previous post: your ferrothorn set is kind-of-lacking, you don't want to run 2 grass type attack moves in one set, you're better off having gyro ball instead of giga drain, as it's effective against speedy dragons, and it also benefits from STAB.

 

[Griffinbane]

Either Intimidate or Moxie will work for Scrafty, both are extremely common to see. Depends on what the team needs.

I don't see the point of having 3 Trick Room users. Even 2 is overdoing it a bit with a Cresselia on the team since most people think Oh, Cresselia, probably Trick Room. I'd get rid of Reuniclus, it's doing pretty much the exact same thing as Cress but it's more frail, especially defensively. Replacing it with Amoongus or Scrafty would be a good idea. Or, if you want to go for something different, you can try Conkeldurr. It's slower than a slug but as strong as an elephant.

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Brave - Guts
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def
~ Drain Punch
~ Rock Slide
~ Mach Punch
~ Detect

 

[WingedDragon]

Toxic stalling may not be effective in VGCs. I'd rather have Helping Hand (to boost the power of the partner's moves) or Safeguard (to protect the team from status for 5 turns) in the third slot, with Reflect/Light Screen taking up the last slot, as VGCs tend to be too fast to make the opponent feel the full effects of Toxic poison.

Reunicus is better off with Focus Blast over Shadow Ball because dealing with Steels and Darks is more important than dealing with other Psychics.

I'd rather have Scrafty over Liepard; not only is it too fast for Trick Room, it also doesn't accomplish much, given that it lacks offensive moves besides Fake Out. Its low defenses don't help either. Scrafty, on the other hand, benefits from Trick Room, is a lot bulkier than Liepard is and provides Fake Out support as well:
-Fake Out
-Drain Punch
-Crunch
-Detect/Protect
Nature: Brave
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Item: Chople Berry
Ability: Moxie

For Bronzong, what's the point of a Brave nature if you're not using Gyro Ball? Psychic is a special move and a Psychic coming from an uninvested base 79 Special Attack is weak. Replace Psychic with Gyro Ball. I'd rather not have Bronzong Skill Swap Levitate over to Heatran because while the Earthquake weakness is detrimental to Heatran, Heatran really likes having Flash Fire to take Heat Waves with. If Earthquake is a problem for Heatran, give it Shuca Berry or Air Balloon.

As for Bronzong, replace Skill Swap with Protect or Explosion.

While it's true that Giga Drain provides Ferrothorn with recovery alongside Leech Seed, it's not recommended because Ferrothorn's Special Attack is downright terrible. Use Gyro Ball over it, and change the nature and EV spread to Relaxed with 252 HP/148 Def/108 SDef to give it some physical bulk, since most of its threats are physically based.

I forgot to change it. Was just playing around with things. Gyro Ball doesnt seem to work well with Broz in my experience

 

[PlatinumDude]

I forgot to change it. Was just playing around with things. Gyro Ball doesnt seem to work well with Broz in my experience

Then what's the point of using Psychic then? Gyro Ball hits a lot harder than Psychic would.

 

[WingedDragon]

Either Intimidate or Moxie will work for Scrafty, both are extremely common to see. Depends on what the team needs.

I don't see the point of having 3 Trick Room users. Even 2 is overdoing it a bit with a Cresselia on the team since most people think Oh, Cresselia, probably Trick Room. I'd get rid of Reuniclus, it's doing pretty much the exact same thing as Cress but it's more frail, especially defensively. Replacing it with Amoongus or Scrafty would be a good idea. Or, if you want to go for something different, you can try Conkeldurr. It's slower than a slug but as strong as an elephant.

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Brave - Guts
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def
~ Drain Punch
~ Rock Slide
~ Mach Punch
~ Detect

Would you suggest him in a Trick Room Environment?

Then what's the point of using Psychic then? Gyro Ball hits a lot harder than Psychic would.

You would think. It would if you looked at the vid it only did like 10-20% damage on neutral targets.

Psychic was to see if it would hit better. Just forgot to change to nature

You lack anything threatening, and the team is too reliant on Trick Room.

Personally I would replace Ferrothorn with Amoonguss (because Rage Powder/Spore synergizes so much better with TR), Bronzong with Tyranitar (because you're weak to weather and Imprison Chandelure) and Reuniclus with Conkeldurr.

Some other changes I would make are Toxic -> Helping Hand/Ice Beam and Psychic-> Psyshock on Cresselia, and to invest in Heatrans speed or get something faster in its place or even your own Imprison Chandelure. And Liepard needs Foul Play/Dark Gem somewhere; or even go with PDs Scrafty suggestion but with Intimidate probably.

But for now I definitely recommend you get Amoonguss/Tyranitar for Bronzong/Ferro and see how that goes;


Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Regenerator
Sassy/ 0 Spe IV
252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpDef
-Rage Powder
-Protect
-Spore
-Giga Drain

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Sand Stream
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Jolly
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Ice Punch
-Superpower

How will a jolly T-Tar work in a TR environment?

 

[PlatinumDude]

Would you suggest him in a Trick Room Environment?



You would think. It would if you looked at the vid it only did like 10-20% damage on neutral targets.

Psychic was to see if it would hit better. Just forgot to change to nature



How will a jolly T-Tar work in a TR environment?

As for the Gyro Ball problem, you used it on naturally slow opponents. Gyro Ball gets stronger the faster the opponent is, so I'd recommend using Gyro Ball on naturally fast opponents only.

Conkeldurr is the perfect Pokémon to use in Trick Room.

I think Tyranitar was suggested because there are time when you won't have have time to get Trick Room up and you need the extra Speed outside it. Having all slow Pokémon in a TR team is asking for trouble since they have a tendency to get revenge killed outside of TR.

 

[WingedDragon]

OK I modified this team using the suggestions offered. So far I am liking what I am seeing. The only problem is I have 4 pokes that I am using most often and the other 2 just seems useless to me. I wonder if there are suitable replacements where they can be just as useful as the other four so I am not using the same pokes over and over.

The top 4 I use most often and not the other two.

Spoiler:

Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 160 SDef / 96 Def / 252 HP
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Protect
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam

Scrafty @ Chople Berry
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Protect

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 HP
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Rock Slide
- Detect

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
- Superpower

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 172 SDef / 252 HP / 84 Def
Sassy Nature
- Rage Powder
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Spore

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 4 Atk / 252 HP
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Would Spiritomb be worth putting into this team somewhere?

 

[Griffinbane]

Huuuuuuh. I've never heard of Spiritomb being on a VGC team. It might work, but you would have to figure it out on your own. Spiritomb's got nice defenses, decent offense, and good support but its HP is lacking. Its moveset is a bit shallow as well. Spiritomb will NEED to have a status move, either Will-O-Wisp or Confuse Ray. Maybe Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak, Will-O-Wisp/Confuse Ray, Protect, Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball? I don't know.