Vileplume was only used 36 more times than Magikarp in OUs in December

[Rhys29]

Salamence can't hurt anything if it's dead, just saying >_> SR is on every stall team for obvious reasons and almost every offensive team so that stuff like Flygon and Gyarados can get kills. 60% is waaaaaay too low. 99% might be too high, but it's at least 90%. It's everywhere.

But really, why can't you just get over sims' choice of dragon? You're either severely underestimating Flygon or hyping Salamence too much, because I have used both as CBers, and the extra power is really awesome, but Flygon is no slouch. It's not like Flygon is completely outclassed for the reasons I brought up in my previous post.

o_O

SR is everywhere, that doesn't mean it's going to be out 24/7. I am not underestimating Flygon nor am I hyping up Salamence: they are simply different and I am pointing this out. Mence does attacking much better than Flygon as it has access to Dragon Dance and much higher attacking stats. Flygon is built to use moves like U-Turn as it is actually quite frail but it has useful resistances which allow it to switch in easier. Since Salamence can't switch in and out as easy as Flygon, Flygon is usually more effective as a Choice user as they need to switch often. Flygon, however, lacks the brute force needed to stay in or cause a threat as big as Salamence who can hit from both sides much harder.

The point I am trying to make is that in order to utilize Flygon's effectiveness, you need a speedy first hit to switch out so he can come back in later. However, the point has been made that it could use the power boost. It is simply my preference to outrun threats with a CB user. The CB powers up the attacking stat, so the power comes at a second priority to me. Sorry that this arguement is taking up this thread :\

 

[Anti]

SR is everywhere, that doesn't mean it's going to be out 24/7.

Yeah, but it's out almost always. Yeah, it won't be out sometimes, but it usually is (just look at the top leads and see how many set up SR).

I am not underestimating Flygon nor am I hyping up Salamence: they are simply different and I am pointing this out.

But we already know that.

Mence does attacking much better than Flygon as it has access to Dragon Dance and much higher attacking stats.

Buuuuuut sims is using a Choice Bander so DDmence is largely irrelevant. Yeah, Salamence has higher attack (WAY higher, actually), but Flygon isn't weak to SR, SS, and doesn't have a STAB Earthquake. Salamence's Outrage and its ability to break walls beats the crap out of Flygon's, but Salamence doesn't have a move that it can be conservative with (outside of Dragon Claw if anybody actually uses that) while still doing a lot of damage.

Your point before was exactly right - they are different, and with that I can tell you that CB Flygon is not outclassed by CBmence and CBmence is not outclassed by CB Flygon.

Also, just saying, but Flygon is usually U-turing right away anyways, so its counters are going to be in KO range for Outrage as it is. Just because it doesn't do as much doesn't mean it doesn't do enough.

Flygon is built to use moves like U-Turn as it is actually quite frail but it has useful resistances which allow it to switch in easier. Since Salamence can't switch in and out as easy as Flygon, Flygon is usually more effective as a Choice user as they need to switch often. Flygon, however, lacks the brute force needed to stay in or cause a threat as big as Salamence who can hit from both sides much harder.

Yeah, but that's not what CB Flygon is trying to do. Its lack of brute force doesn't matter when Outrage already crushed everything with SR damage (or if they had taken U-turn previously, which is the scenario this team will be familiar with).

Obviously it's not going to be the thread Salamence is because Flygon's Draco Meteor hits like a paper airplane and as you mentioned, Salamence's attacking stats are much higher. That's still no reason to sideline Flygon though, and it is easier to switch in and out without having to worry about passive damage and all. This team isn't an offensive force where Salamence's lack of longevity won't mean anything or where Flygon's lack of power is going to make or break the game. If this was an offensive team, I would see your point a lot more, but Flygon is a conservative attacker (that hits pretty damn hard for one) that fits well on this conservative team. This argument isn't/shouldn't be Salamence vs. Flygon - it should be Salamence vs. Flygon for this team. Flygon fits this team better...and that's what sims built it around. I don't know why you would want to replace it for Salamence knowing that.

The point I am trying to make is that in order to utilize Flygon's effectiveness, you need a speedy first hit to switch out so he can come back in later.

Yeah...it's not like you're bringing Flygon in on Starmie to get massacred. The opponent will probably be switching out once Flygon comes in since you should be bringing Flygon in on something it'll scare away. If the opponent is switching, Speed doesn't matter. Even if they don't, 299 speed isn't exactly bad.

However, the point has been made that it could use the power boost.

Well absolutely, Scarf Flygon hits like a paper airplane made out of Kleenex tissues, lol.

It is simply my preference to outrun threats with a CB user. The CB powers up the attacking stat, so the power comes at a second priority to me.

Yeah, your preference. It's okay to voice your opinion but the whole point of this team was to utilize CB Flygon, so I don't see how that matters. This is sims's team after all, you can't lose sight of that.

Sorry that this arguement is taking up this thread :\

I'm actually not, since PC lacks any real discussion these days anyways. Besides, at least it gives sims some information and two passionately argued sides that is probably more helpful than a lot of what could be posted. Besides, it's not like it's preventing other stuff from being posted, so eh.

Responses in bold...

I just don't see the point of you arguing this on when your original point was in fact this:

"Do note that the reason Flygon is not the best user of Outrage is simply because Salamence completely overshadows it. Even a CB Flygon falls notably short of an Adamant LO Mence. If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence as it outclasses it in every way but STAB EQ and U-Turn. As I said earlier: the main reason to use Flygon over every other Dragon is because it is the only one to carry U-Turn."

...But it's not like sims isn't using U-turn. Just because he's using Flygon for U-turn doesn't mean it's blocking out the other advantages that come with it (that set him apart from Salamence). It's kind of like arguing Hippowdon vs. Gliscor when they go about their jobs differently. In this case, Flygon probably fits better.

 

[Rhys29]

I never actually told him to switch to Salamence. I said,

If you are using Flygon to simply use Outrage then you want to switch to Mence

I agree that Flygon is the better choice for this team as it needs plenty of scouting to pull off.

You were arguing that Flygon has a powerful Outrage and it should be invested in. However, I am arguing it should be more invested in utilizing U-Turn effectively as to serve its role better. If it wants to use U-Turn first turn without being OHKOed, it should be more invested in outrunning threats so it can safely pull off a U-Turn and thus not waste your first turn by switching. For this reason, he can lose some of his attack power for speed.

Flygon should not be so invested for the use of Outrage as it is outclassed by Salamence in this prospect. It is similar to how Espeon and Alakazam are compared (in a way). Alakazam obviously has more power, more speed, and a better opportunity to sweep. This would mean that there would be no point in using Espeon for sweeping purposes in OU. However, Espeon has moves that Alakazam cannot take advantage of such as Wish and Baton Pass. This allows Espeon versatility in its uses where as Alakazam can really only attempt to sweep or use Trick. So to compare, Salamence has more power and a higher ability to sweep so it would be like Alakazam. Flygon has nice resistences and has the move U-Turn so it would have versatility like Espeon. This is the difference I am trying to point out.

So my point is that instead of investing in extra power, it may be wiser to invest in the speed more than the power. As with Espeon, it's versatility is what sets it apart from Alakazam and prevents it from being completely overshadowed by it in that aspect. This would be the same with Flygon: it should be less invested in sweeping when the ability to use the move it is ment to use is put in jeapordy. If it is indeed too slow to pull off U-Turn and is OHKO'd, it is indeed completely outclassed as it cannot perform the move that would set it apart. This is why one would be far more inclined to invest in speed on Espeon than on Sp.A as it would help it's ability to actually pull off the moves that make it useful.

Flygon already hits very hard with the CB and Jolly nature.
CB Jolly Att: 448.5
CB Adamant Att: 492
Yes, there is a difference and I know that. The gap seems pretty large, but the loss of speed is bigger. Without that speed boost, it cannot outrun threats such as Ice Punch Jolly Lucario (now being run as to counter speedy Gliscor and Salamence).

Btw: I am not trying to argue about using CB Salamence as it is suckage. In terms of sweeping power, CB Salamence is outclassed by Dragon Dance LO Salamence who also outclasses CB Flygon. CB Flygon is a far better choice than CB Salamence.

 

[Anti]

Yeah, but it's not like using Adamant Flygon means it's overshadowed. I guess you could use the extra speed, but you really lose a lot of power with Outrage and everything else for that matter. I honestly don't see the need to outrun something like Lucario either, since it would never dare switch into Flygon and Flygon gets crushed by a boosted Extremespeed. I would much rather be able to 2HKO common walls after U-turing at them once then to beat Jolly Lucario if the both come in at the same time. Jolly Lucario isn't really common either (it's on ~20% of Lucario which isn't a whole...at least not enough to change the nature).

This team already has enough trouble breaking walls, so power > speed here. This team can take anything faster than Flygon that would threaten it (well, if hew put in Blissey or something to that effect). He can't really afford to keep so many walls around or his team is going to get stalled out (since walls are more often than not on stall or defensive teams these days).

There's a reason nobody uses Jolly Flygon...the metagame might be Speed-driven, but for this team it sure as hell won't make a difference and sims has things like Suicune and Cresselia to worry about, who he has to damage quickly or risk being swept/stalled (swept applies to Suicune only obviously, lol)

 

[sims796]

First, the main thing I must post on is this--I do not need to lose Sandstorm just because Iack a Sand Veiler, or because it hurts some walls. As I said, not every poke needs to resist Sandstorm, and when I battle, I must assume that SS is up before the match begins. Yawn is not only useful for Hazing, but for stopping threats cold, such as Mence, or Sub users switching in. If I find the move hurting me, I will definatly lose it. It was a key move in my last match.

As for Jolly vs Adamant, I may have to lean with Ant-Pop on this one. I do love the debate, it really gives me more reasoning, and gives me a solid direction. I pick Addy because I am not using him to take advantage of U-Turn, but to take advantage of his Outrage & resistances, which is what I mentioned in the first post. If I use anything but, there would be no reason to use Outrage at all.

Speaking of first post, I mentioned no legends. Not to be difficult, but I won't use em. I just don't care for em', so no Cressy, no Celebic, & no Rotom (only from lack of obtainability). Also, & this is for Anti in particular, I ain't really trying to be "original", but I only try to use pokes that brings me the most enjoyment to play with. It just so happens a few (too many :P) OU pokes don't do it for me, such as Mence. That said, I actually like Blissey, but you never see me use her, simply because I have no acess to Seismec Toss (I mean, really, still no D/P/P tutor).

I implore you two to keep debating till you see anything that fixes my team.

Also, Anti, how do you feel about TrickPig over Starmie on this team? I may turn Leaf back into a Wishpasser to back him up.

At this moment, I bet Anti beet me at posting.

EDIT:TOLD YA!!!

EDIT 2: P.S., I freakin' hate you, D_A!

 

[Rhys29]

Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace, it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily. You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power. This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence. There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure. Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

 

[sims796]

I've never, ever had any Mence issues. Before I change her, Starmie stopped any DDMence, & Hippowdown stopped Mence cold. Plus, as I stated, a Sp.Wall is comming in, so Zapdos is a non issue (not that I ever had any problems beating it before, what with Sandstorm/Stealth Rock).

I've also seen quite a few Flygon out there, & based on how they were outrun, I'd say they were Banded. I'm confused by that logic that BandGon isn't used much.

But for the only thing really directed at me, yes, I will use Outragon over OutrageMence, simply because unlike Altaria, he still hits very hard, 2HKO'ing & 3HKO'ing after SR/SS damage, while maintaining resistances.

 

[.]

Before I start my rate, my I say that Anti is correct that Flygon requires Adamant to be an effective Choice Bander. The main reasons you'd use Flygon over something like Salamence include Flygon's Stealth Rock resistance, U-Turn, and of course, the STAB Earthquake. Almost everything else, including Specs, Mixed, Bulky, etc...are done better by Salamence. Salamence has a lot more power, more than 100 points of Attack when factoring in Adamant and a Choice Band. Still, this team needs something to come in and automatically cause a problem without any consequences. Salamence can do the same thing, but the lack of a Rapid Spinner on this team means Stealth Rock eats up 25% of its health. Flygon is superb for opening up sweeps, and softening the oppositions team.

That aside, I hope you're leading with Hippowdon, because if you're not, your lead Flygon will be dying a lot quicker to Azelf and Infernape. Sure he can break their sash, but both outspeed and can either OHKO (Explosion on Azelf, Fake Out + Endeavor + Vacuum Wave on Infernape). Hippowdon breaks their sash, and can Roar them both out, or just set up his own rocks. With an established lead, I must say, Swords Dance is the better option. Sometimes, the Baton Passes don't work. I can name a few scenarios where Leafeon would be successful with something else such as Wishpassing. I'd personally use something like this:

Leafeon @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 114 Def / 144 Spe
-Leaf Blade
-Wish
-Roar
-Protect / Knock Off

Maximum HP and 114 Defense EVs grants 334 HP / 356 Defense. 144 Speed EVs allows you to outrun Adamant Gyarados, Jolly Tyranitar, and anything below. Wish and Protect are standard, and aid with handling Gyarados (whom can deal 70% maximum with Ice Fang, so be careful). If you come in quickly, you can Roar it out, or kill a weakened Gyarados with Leaf Blade. You could also go Maximum HP and Maximum Defense, to better take hits, but you now fail to outrun Adamant Gyarados and Jolly Tyranitar.

Use Aromatherapy on Vileplume. It's the only thing keeping it different from things like Venusaur and Tangrowth. Other than that, nothing else really. DD Tyranitar is troublesome, as is MixMence, as you have no safe switch in, nor a reliable way to kill it outside of Starmie, who could die to a CB Pursuit. Among other things, this team has trouble with hard core Special Attacks. Things like Specs Jolteon is a real ass to this team, as are SubGar (Sub / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Hypnosis or Thunderbolt). You could try a Special Wall, or even a Tank like Snorlax. I don't know, it's your team.


EDIT

Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Salamence is a huge problem, as is Zapdos. However, I disagree with DD Mence destroying this team. Hippowdon is the best check today for it, although sims using Yawn is just idiotic. Ice Fang or Roar are much better alternatives. Ice Fang if he uses my Leafeon (=]).

Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

I don't listen to statistics all the time, since there are many stupid people laddering everywhere. Adamant is the superior nature for this team, which doesn't have a lot of offensive power whatsoever. Thus, the extra power supplied by Adamant is superior in this case.

You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace,

2HKOed by CB Outrage 100% of the time when factoring in SR. 2HKOed by DD LO Outrage 100% of the time, regardless of SR or not. 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor when SR is down. Cresselia is a very shaky answer to Mence.

it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily.

Fair enough. U-Turning still is very annoying, especially with no Leftovers thanks to Sandstorm. Flygon can come out on top with enough prior damage, but yeah, Cresselia forces Flygon out in early game.

You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power.

Vaporeon at times is not 2HKOed by Outrage from a Jolly specimen. That's important, since Vaporeon has the strongest bulky water Ice Beam in OU. Outrage loses a lot of power besides that, for example, Flygon can't 2HKO Porygon2 100% if Jolly. With Adamant, Flygon has a small, yet existing chance to 2HKO Shed Shell Skarmory with Stealth Rock down with Fire Punch. There is no such chance with Jolly. Flygon 2HKOs Suicune 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, but with Jolly, the chance lowers to 35%.

This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

Flygon should not be using Draco Meteor. It sucks coming off its Base 80 Special Attack. Fire Blast is good on the Scarf set, for Skarmory and Forretress. Otherwise, on CBer, Fire Punch is superior. I agree with your last point though.

@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence.

Earthquake Salamence is completely outclassed by Flygon.

@ There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure.

False statement. The Stealth Rock weakness and resistance can play a major role in what switches in and what does not switch in. And Altaria can be used over Salamence. It's not a smart idea whatsoever, since Altaria has the same weaknesses, same SR weakness, and only has Natural Cure to offer over Mence and a little bit of special bulk.

@ Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

Outrage is not the only move on the set. Once you realize that, then maybe I can better understand where you're coming from.

 

[sims796]

Ah, vance, a few things I neglected to mention in my first post:

Flygon was NEVER my lead, just the first poke I happend to list. I've tried the Hippo lead, & it worked out thus far.

I may or may not use Aroma. I feel Plume is different from Tangasaur, simply because he can use Stun Spore (Vena) & he has an added resist (Tang). However, I lack a stat absorber, so I may take your advice on that.

I like that Leafeon set.

Last, I am planning on adding in Grumpig w/Light Screen, to better block sp.attackers. Worked wonders before.

Thanks.

 

[Anti]

Notice I said threats like Jolly Lucario. His team has no answers for Salamence, Zapdos, in fact anything with mediocre power over base 100 gives this team intense trouble. Salamence absolutely crushes this team after 1 DD as nothing can switch into it. Zapdos is unresisted, so having it can just OHKO half your members and 2HKO your walls. I would think that you would want atleast a way to attempt to stop them.

Have you noticed why no one uses Jolly Flygon? Because it has basically the same % as CB Flygon, which no one runs. Adamant is for Scarf which is extremely useful, Jolly is for Choice Band, and Naughty is for Life Orb. About 1/5th of the people who run CB run Adamant, so obviously that is saying something about collective opinion and knowledge.

You mentioned Cresselia as the need for power. This I actually lol at because if Cresselia can take Salamence with grace, it can most certainly take Flygon just as easily. You still have yet to show any hard evidence of anything common that can be prevented by increasing the attack power. The only arguement so far is that it will 2HKO the non-threatening Swampert which I found anyways. If you can list things that it will now for sure OHKO or 2HKO (and outrun) with the attack boost you would have a stronger arguement. For now you are simply saying attack > speed because this team itself lacks power. This does not give the lead which can be OHKO'd quite easily by common leads the right to sacrifice its speed for the extra boost if it will not be around to supply the power. Flygon without Fire Blast/Draco Meteor cannot break walls btw as it cannont hit from the special side.

@ OP: Once again, Outrage Flygon is completely outclassed by Salamence. There is no point is using Flygon if you are using it for Outrage. You are basically saying you want to use Altaria instead of Salamence because it looks bulkier, has DD as well, and has Natural Cure. Just because it has better resistances does NOT make it a better user of Outrage. Not using a poke that is clearly outclassed by another just because 'it doesn't work for you' isn't really a reason. You can do it, but seeing as you are using a poke that is completely overshadowed, I don't see your reasoning.

Adamant is for the sake of hitting things harder. You don't net many more KOs at all (as in turning 2HKOs into OHKOs and all that jazz), but you hit harder. I'm not even taking him leading with Flygon into account since he shouldn't even be leading with Flygon (because it's not a good lead). This is Flygon itself. And I know "just hitting harder" might seem like really faulty reasoning, but it's not like these things are going to be at 100% the entire match, and sometimes you need a 2HKO on 85% Suicune. That's the problem with theorymoning the whole thing. The extra power doesn't help with things that are at 100% health, but they rarely are. The extra power isn't for anything specific, but being an avid user of CB Flygon, there have been countless times where the extra power has indeed saved Flygon (and the match). Also, Cresselia doesn't take Salamnence with grace at all considering it's nearly killed by two LO Outrages and running max HP/max Def makes it way more vulnerable to Draco Meteor.

Also, you can't just assign natures to certain sets since it totally varies, and given the amount of new players that follow Smogon's analysis pages religiously, you can't say that Flygon is always Jolly when CBed. Most of those Jolly natures are probably on the LO set actually, since that what the site recommends and that's what most people follow (whether or not it's right).

I mean, there is no "right" answer for Adamant vs. Jolly, I think we can agree. It's down to personal preference. I think it would probably be wise to agree to disagree at this point and let sims make the decision so this thread can move forward.

And while I agree that using Flygon just for Outrage when Salamence is usually a better user of it (that's taking into account SR weakness and all of that), sims is still taking advantage of the advantages of Flygon (U-turn, as you mentioned), so I don't see how it's a big deal.

 

[sims796]

Yeah, for the sake of argument, I am using Adamant. Lets move on.

Now, if anyone still cares, I am going to make a few changes to my first, original post.

I will remove Starmie (--:'( --) for Grumpig. I don't wanna go into detail, but lets just say that Seismec Toss pig is available, while ST Bliss is not. I was thinking of making him a dual Scren setter, I dunno, but his set will be (so far)

Grumpig@Lefties
Nature:Calm
Trait-Thick Fat
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Signal Beam/Substitute/Rest/Reflect/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat
EV:???

I'll work on EV's later.

I shall use Vance's (.) set for Leafeon.

Vance, U r a idiot! Yawn iz teh best moove.

I *may* change it to Ice Fang, but Yawn has been going great. But with Star gone, I may use Ice Fang.

 

[Anti]

Yeah, for the sake of argument, I am using Adamant. Lets move on.

Now, if anyone still cares, I am going to make a few changes to my first, original post.

I will remove Starmie (--:'( --) for Grumpig. I don't wanna go into detail, but lets just say that Seismec Toss pig is available, while ST Bliss is not. I was thinking of making him a dual Scren setter, I dunno, but his set will be (so far)

Grumpig@Lefties
Nature:Calm
Trait-Thick Fat
Psychic
Seismec Toss
Light Screen
Signal Beam/Substitute/Rest/Reflect/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat
EV:???

I'll work on EV's later.

I shall use Vance's (.) set for Leafeon.

Vance, U r a idiot! Yawn iz teh best moove.

I *may* change it to Ice Fang, but Yawn has been going great. But with Star gone, I may use Ice Fang.

Reflect and (if you can get it) Thunder Wave in the last two slots. Helps a ton with Pursuiters, though they'll usually still crush you. It's better than nothing. Either way, Use Reflect >>> Light Screen. Rest can also work since Grumpig is a pretty huge part of this team's defenses.

 

[.]

With Starmie gone, Gyarados, namely a Dragon Dance variant, runs over your whole team. I mentioned Leafeon mainly since it can outspeed and Roar those that don't DD early on, but Leafeon gets 2HKOed by Ice Fang, and the rest of your team dies to it outside of that. For this reason alone, I strongly reccomend you replace Leafeon with Tangrowth.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 214 Def / 44 Spe
-Power Whip
-Sleep Power
-Knock Off
-Reflect

Tangrowth's options are unlimited! Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic, and even Earthquake can go in the last slot. Reflect is the best option though, very underrated as well. 44 Speed EVs are for outspeeding 0 Speed Blissey for the Sleep Power, before it can Ice Beam and own you. This may seem foolish, but it can be quite important in situations. 44 Speed EVs also outruns 0 Speed Machamp, Relaxed Swampert, etc...All can be stopped with Power Whip / Sleep Powder. Knock It Off, Mojonbo Rules here!

 

[Rhys29]

Salamence is a huge problem, as is Zapdos. However, I disagree with DD Mence destroying this team. Hippowdon is the best check today for it, although sims using Yawn is just idiotic. Ice Fang or Roar are much better alternatives. Ice Fang if he uses my Leafeon (=]).

Hippowdon is 2HKO'd by LO and Specs Mence. By your same logic as Cresselia it is not a counter though I do agree on the check.

I don't listen to statistics all the time, since there are many stupid people laddering everywhere.

I wonder if there are also smart people out there laddering and know how to use Flygon.

2HKOed by CB Outrage 100% of the time when factoring in SR. 2HKOed by DD LO Outrage 100% of the time, regardless of SR or not. 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor when SR is down. Cresselia is a very shaky answer to Mence.

Please list something that isn't 2HKO'd by any Salamence variation in OU. Also bolded is 100% false. The new designed Cresselia will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence's Draco Meteor. Cresselia is the only thing in OU that can truely call itself a Salamence counter. Once agian, CB Salamence is non-existant.

Vaporeon at times is not 2HKOed by Outrage from a Jolly specimen. That's important, since Vaporeon has the strongest bulky water Ice Beam in OU. Outrage loses a lot of power besides that, for example, Flygon can't 2HKO Porygon2 100% if Jolly. With Adamant, Flygon has a small, yet existing chance to 2HKO Shed Shell Skarmory with Stealth Rock down with Fire Punch. There is no such chance with Jolly. Flygon 2HKOs Suicune 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, but with Jolly, the chance lowers to 35%.

SR will not be down if Flygon is the lead. Taking SR into account is smart but taking it into account when it is not applicable is different. If you are not leading with something with SR, do not count on it. You also list things that are no where near close to being threats or are not garaunteed, which was my point in the first place.

Flygon should not be using Draco Meteor. It sucks coming off its Base 80 Special Attack. Fire Blast is good on the Scarf set, for Skarmory and Forretress. Otherwise, on CBer, Fire Punch is superior. I agree with your last point though.

LO Naughty Flygon hits much harder than you would think with Draco Meteor. Kingdra is only base 95 and its Draco Meteor is something to be feared.

Earthquake Salamence is completely outclassed by Flygon.

Please state when I said this wasn't true 0.0

False statement. The Stealth Rock weakness and resistance can play a major role in what switches in and what does not switch in. And Altaria can be used over Salamence. It's not a smart idea whatsoever, since Altaria has the same weaknesses, same SR weakness, and only has Natural Cure to offer over Mence and a little bit of special bulk.

Outrage should be used to KO everything remaining the opponents party. This means the said user should not switch out. It should also mean it should switch in on something that would force a switch. This means you would not be switching out if everything is done correctly. Thus resistances and such are not needed. Welcomed, but not necessary.

Outrage is not the only move on the set. Once you realize that, then maybe I can better understand where you're coming from.

My entire arguement is against the power boost for Outrage and for the speed boost for U-Turn. Everyone else seems to be the one obsessed with Outrage.

I mean, there is no "right" answer for Adamant vs. Jolly, I think we can agree.

OP has just now brought up that it is not his lead after all this. As I stated earlier Adamant is for non-leads. Jolly is for leads. If you are not a bulky lead, you need the speed so you don't take hits. If you are bulky, there isn't as much use for speed. However, since it is not a lead, Adamant is the right decision.

I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.

PS-If Gyarados is an issue, Vaporeon handles it easily.

 

[Anti]

I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.

PS-If Gyarados is an issue, Vaporeon handles it easily.

We aren't. We need knowledgeable people around here anyways with the "departure" of Vance and the general lack of activity. all it was was a debate, we don't think anything less of you and I ask that you not think any less of us ;D You seem knowledgeable, a mere disagreement should make anybody think less of anybody else. The issue can die now, lol.

And Vaporeon is always a solid choice in that respect. Also helps pass Wish to keep everything (especially Grumpig) healthy.

 

[luke]

Rhys. No one cares about post count. :|

Also, every person has varying opinions on what's necessary and what's not. Not everyone is going to conform to what you view as correct. You've argued your points soundly and people disagree. Just drop it.

 

[sims796]

Please, I don't wanna hear anymoar of this. Gon is not my lead. I will be using Addy. Take it to VM, and there is a Group for these disscusions. I want no more mention from anyone at all.

Now, I didn't really want to, but Vance may have a good point. So I'll be replacing Leaf with Tangrowth (--:'<).

Quick question, does Substitute block Trick?

EDIT: AHA ANTI BEAT MEH

 

[.]

Hippowdon is 2HKO'd by LO and Specs Mence. By your same logic as Cresselia it is not a counter though I do agree on the check.

Forgive me, I meant physical Salamence. It's obvious Hippowdon doesn't stop LO/Specs Mence.

I wonder if there are also smart people out there laddering and know how to use Flygon.

The ones using Adamant Flygon.

Please list something that isn't 2HKO'd by any Salamence variation in OU. Also bolded is 100% false. The new designed Cresselia will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence's Draco Meteor. Cresselia is the only thing in OU that can truely call itself a Salamence counter. Once agian, CB Salamence is non-existant.

"New Cresselia" <--- Clarification please. Cresselia also is a decent Salamence check. There are no Salamence counters. You have to split them into groups: MixMence counters, DD Mence counters, CB Mence counters, Specsmence counters, etc...It's tough, but that's because Salamence is so powerful.

SR will not be down if Flygon is the lead. Taking SR into account is smart but taking it into account when it is not applicable is different. If you are not leading with something with SR, do not count on it. You also list things that are no where near close to being threats or are not garaunteed, which was my point in the first place.

Flygon is not the lead.

LO Naughty Flygon hits much harder than you would think with Draco Meteor. Kingdra is only base 95 and its Draco Meteor is something to be feared.

LO Naughty Flygon is outclassed by LO Naive Salamence. Draco Meteor is pretty strong, but what I was referring to was mainly Scarf Draco Meteor, which is terrible.

Please state when I said this wasn't true 0.0

I was trying to make a point, that this entire "___ using ___ move is outclassed by ____ using the same move" is a bad argument. You're not using Flygon primarily because of Outrage. It's a great addition, but Flygon has other selling points, such as SR resistance, STAB EQ, U-Turn, and the underrated Electric immunity.

Outrage should be used to KO everything remaining the opponents party. This means the said user should not switch out. It should also mean it should switch in on something that would force a switch. This means you would not be switching out if everything is done correctly. Thus resistances and such are not needed. Welcomed, but not necessary.

So by this logic, one should ONLY bring in "Outrage User ___" when the opponents team is weak? This shows how you can play Salamence and Flygon differently. Flygon isn't a giant monster that destroys everything like Salamence. It's like a scout of sorts, but it can indeed cause mayhem with Outrage in late game. Of course, the same could be said for Salamence, minus the scouting part and not being a monster.

My entire arguement is against the power boost for Outrage and for the speed boost for U-Turn. Everyone else seems to be the one obsessed with Outrage

I use CB Flygon on my teams since it's not SR weak. Call it crazy, but that's literally THE reason I use it over Salamence or Dragonite. Losing 25% each turn is completely ridiculous. SR resistance eases up on the prediction, which is, by the way, very welcoming.

OP has just now brought up that it is not his lead after all this. As I stated earlier Adamant is for non-leads. Jolly is for leads. If you are not a bulky lead, you need the speed so you don't take hits. If you are bulky, there isn't as much use for speed. However, since it is not a lead, Adamant is the right decision.

Wait, what? Flygon shouldn't be leading, and while I realize you were confused (I was too), tell me what Jolly outspeeds from the common leads and stops that Adamant doesn't. Adamant is overall better.

I wish people would read my post more carefully 0.0 do not judge on post count if you are.

No one does that.

 

[Rhys29]

New Cress is: Calm - 204 Hp, 196 Def, 108 Sp.D Will never be OHKO'd by Adamant LO +1 Outrage or 2HKO'd by SpecsMence Draco Meteor.

I also mentioned in my first post (maybe my second) what it would gain to outrun by running Jolly as a lead. Now that it has been clarified as a non-lead I am 100% with both of you on Adamant.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Im sure there are much more important things to argue/discuss in this topic than about than "which nature is best for flygon" the argument has been presented by both sides and all you are all doing is flogging a dead horse. At the end of the day its up to the op, so just drop it.