What if "super effective" and "it's not very effective..." didn't exist?

[Yellow Silver Nostalgia]

I know this sounds radical but it's just a thought experiment, and I'd like to hear what other people think.

It's never really made sense to me how, for example, a sturdy rock-type like Golem can be four times as vunerable to a water attack than a flimsy normal type like Meowth, and I'm certainly not the only one who's thought this.

I know that the chances of it happening are effectively zero because the type system is a tried and tested concept that Nintendo would be best advised not to risk changing, but if we were releasing a Pokemon game now to an audience that had never played it before, do you think it would be better and more realistic if strengths and weaknesses were based almost entirely on the individual Pokemon's stats?

I've thought of three exceptions:

1. Pokemon should remain resistant to moves of their own type, because they are masters of that element.

2. Pokemon should remain better at moves of their own type, for the same reason.

3. Ghost type Pokemon are a potential problem, because it doesn't make sense for them to be affected by anything other than Psychic types. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense for them to be seen by anything other than the Psychic types. Then again, I think it would be pretty cool if this were the case, because let's face it, in real life, Ghost and Psychic types really would be a level above any other type.

Furthermore, the following types are stupid and would not exist in my hypothetical game: Fighting, Flying, Dragon, Bug, Dark.

As well as making the games more realistic, I think it could make them more fun, because it wouldn't be all about trying to get that "super effective" move and avoid them being used against you, and more emphasis could be put on the attack/defense/speed stats and the moves that affect them.

Thoughts?

 

[Oryx]

I would not play a Pokemon minus Dragon types.

Bumping this to Pokemon Gaming Central.

 

[Arc]

If type advantages/disadvantages didn't exist, most gym leaders would become a lot more stronger than they are now. The Pokemon Metagame would change drastically as well, as I fear most Pokemon with high defensive base stats would be a little bit shunned by Pokemon with high base attack since defensive Pokemon rely on type advantages to take hits well. But with all that said, I'm open to a idea like that.

 

[bobandbill]

Furthermore, the following types are stupid and would not exist in my hypothetical game: Fighting, Flying, Dragon, Bug, Dark.

Why for starters are these following types 'stupid' in your opinion?

3. Ghost type Pokemon are a potential problem, because it doesn't make sense for them to be affected by anything other than Psychic types. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense for them to be seen by anything other than the Psychic types. Then again, I think it would be pretty cool if this were the case, because let's face it, in real life, Ghost and Psychic types really would be a level above any other type.

This'd effectively make only Pokemon of that typing 'worth using' which'd be weird imo, to put only those typings on a pedastal, and basically force the player to have to use those types in battles otherwise they'd lose. Seems too narrow an idea really.

 

[PlatinumDude]

If supereffective/not very effective didn't exist, then some Pokemon (like Volcarona) can simply use their massive offensive stats to lay in the hurt on other Pokemon without worrying about the opponents taking reduced damage.

 

[Yellow Silver Nostalgia]

I fear most Pokemon with high defensive base stats would be a little bit shunned by Pokemon with high base attack since defensive Pokemon rely on type advantages to take hits well.

Well the stats could be tweaked and exaggerated to more accurately represent this. For example, a Steelix's defence would be something in the region of 10 times higher than a Gyarados', but it's special attack would be close to zero because it doesn't magically control any elements like fire or water - it's a purely physical Pokemon. I might be completely wrong with these estimations but if they're way off, they could always be changed. It's the possibility that interests me.

Another idea, while I'm on it - how about Pokemon with higher speed not only get their turn in battle before Pokemon with lower speed, but get more turns overall? So the turn based system would become based upon chance. For example, in a battle between Snorlax and Hitmonlee, for every turn, there would be a 65% chance that the turn would be given to Hitmonlee, and a 35% chance that the turn would be given to Snorlax, but Snorlax would be have higher HP, so it could withstand more of the attacks.

Why for starters are these following types 'stupid' in your opinion?

I don't think they're as well thought out as they could be, for the following reasons:

1. Fighting - I think it's unneccessary to make a distinction between normal type moves such as 'tackle' and fighting type moves such as 'mega kick' - are they not both physical attacks that should depend directly on the physical attack stat of the Pokemon? Then again, I'm glad you've raised the issue, because you could say that fighting types should be better at performing those moves and resisting them, as they are more well practiced at executing them. But maybe that could be reflected with fighting types having higher attack and defense stats than the other normal-type Pokemon, without having to separate them into different types. My point is, if a guy came up to you and headbutted you, would you not say he was fighting you?

2. Flying - Well. There's the 'wing attack' kind of flying type, that really should be normal type in my opinion, for the same reasons that I think 'mega kick' should be normal type. And then there's the 'gust' kind of flying type, which makes more sense, as the air is kind of like an element that can be controlled. I just think this difference could be made more apparent, at least. Something to think about. There's certainly no reason why 'pecking' at grass should be twice as effective as 'biting' it.

3. Bug - the lack of bug type moves says it all really. It's a thing to be rather than an element to control. It's like having a cat type or a fish type. And, to be honest, bug types are really hard done by in Pokemon. If you took a spider and made it the size of a bird, it would be a great deal stronger, but in Pokemon, a Pidgey is 'super effective' against a Spinarak.

4. Dragon - as above.

5. Dark - as above above above above. I don't see the need for Pokemon that aren't so friendly to have their own type, it's not like hitting someone angrily is any different to hitting someone happily... or is it? I can kinda see why Psychic types might not like them, given that they can read minds. Their feelings would probably get hurt when hit by a dark type Pokemon. But I don't like the idea that a dark type can't become nice and friendly lol.

This'd effectively make only Pokemon of that typing 'worth using' which'd be weird imo, to put only those typings on a pedastal, and basically force the player to have to use those types in battles otherwise they'd lose. Seems too narrow an idea really.

Yes, I didn't explain that very well.

In my hypothetical world, Psychic types would be the only types that would be able to interact with Ghost types at all. In other words, you could only fight against Ghost types if you had a Psychic type. They just wouldn't appear to any other type, and neither would they be catchable with any kind of Pokeball, because they exist outside of the physical world as we know it.

I love the sense of mystery that comes with 'Ghost' in Lavender Town before you obtain the Silph Scope in the RBY games, and I think that's the way it should be. Ghost types should be left to find their peace and rest, that's what I'm saying.

 

[DannyBoyNz]

So basically you're saying Gengar can go to hell?
& if there was no super/not very effective then the game would be over centralised by pokemon like Arceus or Genesect & pokemon like Chansey are screwed instantly...

 

[Quixote]

While I see your point about bugs, you could also say that they are technically so different that they wouldn't be able to fit anywhere else besides their own subsection of typing correct? Their distinct genetic makeup is what makes the typings work.

Psychic - Bugs are so bizarre and freaky that a Psychic would have trouble concentrating when one is near right?

Grass - I mean bugs like, live in the forest and burrow in trees right?

You can do the other types because I'm too lazy lol.



Furthermore, you would also have to include Dragons, because what exactly is a Dragon? I couldn't tell you. They are different than other types in certain ways so it would be easier to classify them into their own type.





Also, to answer your question, if there were no types, then Whitney would have been trillions of times harder.

 

[Sydian]

1. Fighting - I think it's unneccessary to make a distinction between normal type moves such as 'tackle' and fighting type moves such as 'mega kick' - are they not both physical attacks that should depend directly on the physical attack stat of the Pokemon? Then again, I'm glad you've raised the issue, because you could say that fighting types should be better at performing those moves and resisting them, as they are more well practiced at executing them. But maybe that could be reflected with fighting types having higher attack and defense stats than the other normal-type Pokemon, without having to separate them into different types. My point is, if a guy came up to you and headbutted you, would you not say he was fighting you?

2. Flying - Well. There's the 'wing attack' kind of flying type, that really should be normal type in my opinion, for the same reasons that I think 'mega kick' should be normal type. And then there's the 'gust' kind of flying type, which makes more sense, as the air is kind of like an element that can be controlled. I just think this difference could be made more apparent, at least. Something to think about. There's certainly no reason why 'pecking' at grass should be twice as effective as 'biting' it.

-Mega Kicks you- Mega Kick IS Normal type! -runs out-

Anyway, I think the game would be unbalanced rather than better in this scenario. The uber tier would just run rampant...of course, I'm thinking in-game. And if you were doing certain challenges, life NFE, where you need to rely more on type advantages than stats (cause obviously, you won't have the stats to pull of a lot of things) then it'd be near impossible.

 

[Zelda]

Without having any move being super effective or not, the whole competitive battling system would be different as well as type advantages. First of all, type advantages wouldn't even exist haha (because what advantage do you get if none of your Pokémon signature moves are super effective?). & STAB moves wouldn't exist either, so I'm not sure how fun battling would be anymore.

Though if it NEVER existed, I don't know if it would be unbalanced or not. I mean we wouldn't even think about it (unless a couple of us smarties thought GameFreak should implement that) and I'm sure there would have been a few different things to make the whole battle dialogue/system work. I don't know, but that's just how I see it. :J

 

[Limanya]

If it didn't exist, i wouldn't have beaten Black.

 

[The 100 Mega Shock]

As well as making the games more realistic, I think it could make them more fun

This is a great example of "realism doesn't mean fun in video games". When games chase a concept of "realistic" behaviour above all else, the player's freedom of choice and chances to have fun playing the game often fall by the wayside.

The type chart exists as a central part of the battle system which the entire game is designed around. Without the ability to do increased damage against Pokémon of opposing types, battles will end up taking far, far longer in the worst case scenario as you do half as much damage to your opponent and make it far more likely for you to be killed before you can defeat them. It also removes one of the biggest difficulty modifiers in the game, being able to design enemy trainer's parties to have better or worse type coverage against players that prepare themselves.

If weaknesses and resistances did not exist and Pokémon did more damage as standard, you've taken away a massive part of the individuality of each Pokémon, resulting in a mostly homogeneous group of ones to choose that may look different, but don't act much different in battles - pure stats and power become the only important metrics.

Another idea, while I'm on it - how about Pokemon with higher speed not only get their turn in battle before Pokemon with lower speed, but get more turns overall? So the turn based system would become based upon chance. For example, in a battle between Snorlax and Hitmonlee, for every turn, there would be a 65% chance that the turn would be given to Hitmonlee, and a 35% chance that the turn would be given to Snorlax, but Snorlax would be have higher HP, so it could withstand more of the attacks.

This kind of system is extremely hard to balance - a very important difference between Pokémon and a lot of other RPGs is that nearly every Pokémon can use all sorts of stat-increasing moves during their turn. If a fast Pokémon has more chances to make themselves faster and stronger and still attack, how are slower Pokémon meant to compete using only their base stats?

 

[Yoshikko]

Without having any move being super effective or not, the whole competitive battling system would be different as well as type advantages. First of all, type advantages wouldn't even exist haha (because what advantage do you get if none of your Pokémon signature moves are super effective?). & STAB moves wouldn't exist either, so I'm not sure how fun battling would be anymore.

Though if it NEVER existed, I don't know if it would be unbalanced or not. I mean we wouldn't even think about it (unless a couple of us smarties thought GameFreak should implement that) and I'm sure there would have been a few different things to make the whole battle dialogue/system work. I don't know, but that's just how I see it. :J

STAB moves would exist, he mentioned in the OP how Pokémon would still have STAB, just as how they'd be resistant against their own type, both because they are master over that type. At any rate, I think it would change things a lot and I can't really imagine what it would be like. Types would become irrelevent at all actually, they could easily be dismissed of because they don't have as much meaning anymore as they do with the current system. Also, there wouldn't really be any more moveset strategies because there is no such thing as type coverage anymore, because a move will do either neutral or STAB damage, and of course you want to have the latter, so naturally you're giving your Pokémon 4 moves of their own type (or maybe 3, and one support move like protect, but that's as far as strategy would go).

 

[wvoody]

Hmmm...

Not a theory I've heard of before. Well, in some cases I see the OP's point about how types are unrealistic, but imo this is more of a problem with the assigned types of certain pokemon, rather than a problem with types in general.

Like, um.... take flying vs bug type. I think everyone can agree that in real life, a bird (say, pidgey in the game) would most likely be able to manage a caterpillar (let's use caterpie to make life easy). However, we take a pokemon like Scyther, classified as a bug/flying type... it's got blades for wings. I don't think that if there were such a thing in real life, it could be easily captured or killed, let alone swallowed, by a bird.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the OP's point is that types don't make sense, because in the real world types don't apply - everything is based on the individual creature.

To come to some sort of personal opinion, I'd say that the main idea behind Pokemon, the driving force behind the type system and all the wonderful simplicity that comes with it, is the idea that while many pokemon have analogous creatures in the real world, the world of Pokemon is MEANT to be different.

Admittedly, this is probably because it's easier to program types than to have to think through and weigh each pokemon's strengths and weaknesses. But it's hard to weigh reality and realism when you're talking about a fictional game. Plus, people LIKE the type system, because there's something incredibly satisfying about watching a health meter get entirely depleted in one turn and have the game tell you your attack was super-effective. I know it makes me squeal excitedly every time... and I've been playing steadily for more than 10 years now. xD

Yay, spewing a bunch of eeeugh at the screen at 5 am. I hope something I said made sense. Back to homework now I suppose.