If creator wanted women to always be subservient to men, He should not have made them walk and talk like men. Instead, have them behave more like wild beasts that have to be locked up in cages when not doing the deed. Therefore it's only natural that women should ALWAYS be equal no matter what. The same wisdom that can be applied to other non-white races as well.
Why women ARE equal to men
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maccrash
foggy notion
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unfortunately it's not that simple, and this presumes that everyone here believes in some creator. it's not a matter of women being born on the same footing -- it's the way society treats them in relation as a direct result of centuries upon centuries of prejudice against; an ingrained, possibly (at this point) subconscious, bias. it's reductive to say otherwise.
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The main reason why women should be looked at as equals to men is simple. They are both human beings and should be treated equally as such.
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This is the best thread I've ever seen.
Somewhere_
i don't know where
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Rights are universal, so they are applicable to everybody regardless of gender, race, or anything.
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We are all equal. It's the prejudices, opinions, and perspectives imposed by others that limits your personal value. Everything that makes you feel inequal is simply defamation of character.
Refuse to acknowledge/dismiss those that impose inequality and you'll live a happier life man.
/lolwisdom
Refuse to acknowledge/dismiss those that impose inequality and you'll live a happier life man.
/lolwisdom
I've been thinking the exact same thing I believe that women were initially animals starting from Eve herself. But because animals' intercourse Is plain and binary ,and since humans are greedy beings, women eventually came to resemble men after million of years of evolution, so sex could feel more satisfying. So, since women were initially animals, they shouldn't have the same rights with men.
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I- Uh? I mean, assuming you take the bible literally that's not true since eve was very blatantly human, and evolution doesn't work to make things more "satisfying" (Nor do i really get what traits seperate "human" from "animal" here that would allow interbreeding with the offspring either being an animal or a human based on their gender, that would be lost somehow to make women "human")
Sorry for raining on whatever parade this is, but I'm failing to see how this is a topic worth discussing. Is there anyone today who says women are somehow sub-human or are of a lower status than men as humans? Is that even a live discussion? Is there any ground whatsoever- scientific, sociological, philosophical, scriptural- on which we could have a valid disagreement here?
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What is a woman?
What is a man?
What is a gay?
What is a straight?
What is a white?
What is a black?
These categories are all social constructs that have developed through political and social institutions tied to power. These identities narrow our ability to perceive others and ourselves in terms of reason. Essentially, it is like a mythology of what is real. That is, our identities affect our thoughts, beliefs, ideologies, and therefore how we participate in politics, the economy, and society and how we perceive other participants.
All men should not be equal. All women should not be equal. Women and men should not be equal. Rather, individuals should all be unique and distinct categories of self not segmented by the construction of identity. In this way we allow for mutual recognition of others as individuals. Only through this mutual recognition can we actually construct our own distinct identity based on reason -- unbounded by identity.
In this way we get at reality -- through an authentic self.
What is a man?
What is a gay?
What is a straight?
What is a white?
What is a black?
These categories are all social constructs that have developed through political and social institutions tied to power. These identities narrow our ability to perceive others and ourselves in terms of reason. Essentially, it is like a mythology of what is real. That is, our identities affect our thoughts, beliefs, ideologies, and therefore how we participate in politics, the economy, and society and how we perceive other participants.
All men should not be equal. All women should not be equal. Women and men should not be equal. Rather, individuals should all be unique and distinct categories of self not segmented by the construction of identity. In this way we allow for mutual recognition of others as individuals. Only through this mutual recognition can we actually construct our own distinct identity based on reason -- unbounded by identity.
In this way we get at reality -- through an authentic self.
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Nice anti-intellectual bigotry.
Lots of assertions and value judgments that is not supported by any sociology literature.
For instance, not all women, but the dreaded "average" of aggregated individual women, perform worse on math related tests than men. However, experimental research has demonstrated time and time again that worse scores are due to the self-stigmatization. This research primes this self-stigmatization by suggesting to test subjects that women tend to perform worse than men on a particular test.
However, if the there is no prime, in a control group, women do slightly better than the primed experimental group, but relatively worse than men due to the indirect social stigmatization that women perform worse on math-related tests.
If the prime suggests to the experimental group that women will do just as well as men, if not better, there is NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE between men and women in math-related tests.
The difference is not biological -- its societal.
Nice job in being a primer for self-stigmatization.
Nice job with the oppression and bigotry based on anti-intellectualism.
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Women are not psychologically different at all, unless you mean via the societal assigned gender roles ect that can effect individual's ways of thinking? And men have the capability to be stronger than women, assuming perfect genetics, diet, exercise levels and hormone production? Any two women and men can and do have vastly different fitness levels that can't be quantified into that false dichotomy. (Also? How are women more valuable for their reproduction capabilities than... i guess you mean their physical ability? Women are more vulnerable where reproduction is involved considering they have to actually carry the growing meat sack inside them rather than just 50% of their chromosomes, i guess but the womb/egg cell is not inherently more important than anything else)
Genocide is.... not one group being "superior"? Genocide is not at all any sort of part of evolution? If rights are imaginary... but also have to be taken by force... doesn't that quantify them? A job is imaginary. The concept of ownership is imaginary. The concept of superiority, and difference is imaginary. Names are imaginary. And yet they're still things that very much have value and recognition in human society because that's..... just how things work? We have a shared communicated culture and that's how humanity does things, for better or for worse.
Artificial wombs are probably going to be used for gay or infertile couples more than they're going to replace women? Any and all studies that present the idea women and men think differently are either subject to
A: Overseer bias
B: The Stereotype Effect
C: Lack of time
D: Tiny sample size
C: The unique nature of each human individual being different to one another
So i can't really tell you anything women do better then men, in the same way i can't really tell you anything men do better than women.(Though i suppose "produce sperm" and "have a womb" could count, but there's probably quite a few women who could give your sperm count a run for it's money, and quite a few men who probably have perfectly capable wombs).
Not sure about the strange eugenics twist at the end there but... uh ok? Usually though the inequality in gendered professions is purely societal bias ect rather than legitimate differences in abilities. Women function no better or no worse in male dominated fields, just as men do no better or worse in female dominated fields. There's simply stigma in the workplace and educated system about, say, a woman wanting to be a construction worker or something or a man wanting to be a waiter or nurse vs a woman being a hairdresser or a man being an accountant.
I do enjoy the idea that you're presenting this argument completely free of the concept of human relationships, as the implication is that the innate desire for emotional and sexual companionship people have will be 100% gay in this ideal future you have, which is something i have to assume you hilariously don't intend. I do have to wonder about transgender people in this future too, do they function as the only women in this society? Are female children raised to a point where you can tell if they're transgender or not, and they're only allowed to live if they are? If not are female babies just coveyer belted into a woodchipper off the artificial womb-line? Where are you getting the eggs? Wouldn't it be 10000000% easier to imagine a women only society, considering two women being the donor for genetic material can ONLY female children while two males, or even one male and a stem cell based egg will always evenly produce 50/50?
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This isn't really a good subject, and I don't know what kind of debate this is?
Who in particular doesn't agree or disagree with this? You'll either get people who say yes or people who say no, but what kind of argument is it? It sounds more like a neo-feminist rant, as I don't see anything that says women are un equal to men besides biology and some mental characteristics. Men are naturally stronger, this is a fact, but it doesn't mean that women can't be stronger. Some women are kinder then some men, there is nothing to attack here besides the argument itself.
I agree with Shamol in his analysis. The thread itself is invalid.
Who in particular doesn't agree or disagree with this? You'll either get people who say yes or people who say no, but what kind of argument is it? It sounds more like a neo-feminist rant, as I don't see anything that says women are un equal to men besides biology and some mental characteristics. Men are naturally stronger, this is a fact, but it doesn't mean that women can't be stronger. Some women are kinder then some men, there is nothing to attack here besides the argument itself.
I agree with Shamol in his analysis. The thread itself is invalid.
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It's easy to get into thoughts like that, but also very childish. It stems from a sense of perceived superiority and it doesn't apply to that person. One thing that's made me more humble is a sense of place, in that, I am not some kind of god or something, but I do have a great potential. But to shame others or believe they are somehow lesser then you for merely existing is a foolish and week argument that usually stems from hated or a single experience of what they perceive to be a stereotype.
For example, the guy who says he is better then women doesn't know every woman. His arguments are invalid. Instead, I am attacking his foundation itself. He either has a big ego, and finds himself to be superior based on some thin "arguments" or he has dealt with a limited number of women. That is not to say that, if he has been screwed by a few women in a bad way, he can't be distrustful, but to say from a limited number that "every woman is like this" shows a lack of experience.
To you sir, how were you treated by your mother? Even if it wasn't the best, she did raise you. My mother, for example, is a very nice and thoughtful lady, who, while she can talk a bit much, has sacrificed so much for me, that I can never pay off that debt. Therefore, your entire foundation is laid bare. You have nothing to stand on good sir. Thank you.
CoffeeDrink
GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
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*sits and sips coffee*
*Puts mug down.*
*click* Hmm...
*scroll, scroll* Hm?
*picks up coffee mug.*
*sip*
Right-o. Thought someone was being serious for a minute.
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)
"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)
"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)
"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)
"Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)
"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)
"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)
"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)
"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)
"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)
"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)
"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)
*sips caffeine*
So, women are equal according to the 'creator' hm? According to the creator and the good book, they are about worth 50 shillings of silver and a great way to stop drunk people from raping your mystery dinner guest.
*Puts mug down.*
*click* Hmm...
*scroll, scroll* Hm?
*picks up coffee mug.*
*sip*
Right-o. Thought someone was being serious for a minute.
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)
"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)
"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)
"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)
"Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)
"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)
"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)
"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)
"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)
"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)
"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)
"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)
*sips caffeine*
So, women are equal according to the 'creator' hm? According to the creator and the good book, they are about worth 50 shillings of silver and a great way to stop drunk people from raping your mystery dinner guest.
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I don't at all understand what you're trying to say...? That somehow disagreeing with someone's factually incorrect argument is somehow driven by a sense of my own superiority?
I definitely feel like you must've quoted the wrong person with the strange final paragraph and the overall tone seeming to be against the notion presented that women aren't equal to men but replying to a comment claiming the need for debate is driven by people disagreeing with that point and using easily dismantled false information
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Except, the OP never specified Christian "creator", organized-religion, or monotheism.
For instance, Spinoza, a well-known panthiest who believed that the physical universe is equivalent to god, and that there is no division between a Creator and the substance of its creation. (Or a variant of nontheism)
Likewise, deists deny divine interventions and miracles that riddle prominent organized religion. Rather, creation of the natural world and natural laws arise from the inception of the universe. As such, they believe that religious beliefs ought to be founded in human reason based on the observations of the natural world constructed by the Creator(s).
The OP can be a deist and be consistent with the argument as guided by an observation of human nature -- inherent equality in potential as humans. Though, I tend to believe no individual is equal, and thus men and women are mythological categorizations based crude perceptions of nature that formulate distinctions as information shortcuts -- that are actually deceptive.
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Ah, I do apologize. Re reading it, I meant to put a "I agree based on x" post before attacking the guy about three posts above. I was certainly not attacking you, and I will change that later, or when I have time.
Mostly likely you thought the OP was saying in a creator context. They were actually talking about what they feel to be an underlying subconscious in most people, possibly men's, minds: That women are somehow thought to be inferior to men. Infact, the title of this even mentions sub-human. Hence, like Shamol said, this entire argument is invalid.
If you actually believe that muk that you just spewed, then I feel very sorry for you. That sounds like the ramblings of a deranged lunatic who wanted to infest people with his disgusting view, and is typical of what I've found in the bible. Stone your neighbor on a Tuesday if he glances at your wife is probably in there too, but I wouldn't follow that muk. But, that's a topic for another thread, and so I drop it here.
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