will 4th gen hacking (d/p/pl/hg/ss) ever replace 3rd gen hacking

[Jerme]

Well, I think the most important thing that makes 3rd Gen hacking popular is AdvanceMap, amirite? So once we have a map editor for D/P/Pt/HG/SS that can do all the functions that AdvanceMap can (the important ones), then 4th Gen hacking will become much more popular.

I think these are the most important features of AdvanceMap that makes 3rd Gen hacking popular:
*Edit map layouts
*Rename locations
*A nice GUI that's very easy to understand, such as when changing OW sprites
*Built-in wild Pokemon editor
*Very easy to create/assign scripts

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PPRE can do everything on that list except for the first two, correct? PPRE can change overworld sprites, but it's annoying since you can't visually see which. PPRE can change the wild Pokemon of any map in any 4th Gen game, and PPRE can also edit scripts and move their X & Y locations, correct? I guess it's "hard" since you don't have a visual reference as to where the scripts activate, etc.

So I guess what's slowing 4th Gen hacking is a map editor with a nice GUI. I think it would be easier if people were willing to "keep track" of all the events. I mean, think about it, in 4th Gen hacking, we already can do most of the things that we do in 3rd Gen. PPRE can basically become the AdvanceMap for 4th Gen games, we just don't have a map editor/viewer to combine it with so that we could have some kind of a reference when placing scripts, etc.

I have no knowledge of 3D or anything, but since there's a map editor for Super Mario 64 DS, then that means a map editor for Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver shouldn't be hard, considering Super Mario 64 DS doesn't have grid-based maps.

what?? i know there's one for the n64 version, but theres one for the DS? link me to this, i googles it not too long ago but never found anything.

 

[Chaos Rush]

what?? i know there's one for the n64 version, but theres one for the DS? link me to this, i googles it not too long ago but never found anything.

I can't find a link... but somewhere in the hacks section, I swear I saw a screenshot showing Peach's castle and everything... And I've read at least 2 people mention it before.

 

[Platinum Lucario]

I have no knowledge of 3D or anything, but since there's a map editor for Super Mario 64 DS, then that means a map editor for Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver shouldn't be hard, considering Super Mario 64 DS doesn't have grid-based maps.

Hm... grid-based maps, eh? Well considering that the Nintendo DS is a much different handheld from the GameBoy Advance... I can already see that generation 4 does use grid-based maps. I think it might also use layers on the maps as well, from when I was using the walk through walls code and looking at the objects and map layout carefully.

So two things; objects (such as doors, buildings, structures ect.) and normal polygons to form the map layout first.

And I can't be sure that 4th Generation hacking will ever replace the 3rd.
Besides... it'll be like 2013 before a real object and layout editor will come out.

So yes... a long time to come. But still, the 5th basically uses the same mapping style anyways. Just that it has layout rotation in some places.

 

[Xenesis]

I can't see it happening for a long time.

The GBA is quite literally smack-bang in the middle of the sweet spot of hacking. The GBA is incredibly powerful for what it does, so you don't have to do a lot of work squeezing things in and around hard limitations (NES/GB/Megadrive/SNES/etc) while it doesn't have to work around the complexities of modern systems, filesystems, encryption and the like (DS, Wii)

GBA Hacking (and thus third gen) is going to stay for a long time simply because it has the lowest entry barrier to hacking, really. The vast majority of people who 'hack' don't actually hack but rely on the tools developed by the few incredibly talented people around - until such tools exist (Map editors, Stat editors, etc) there isn't going to be much migration.

 

[Platinum Lucario]

The vast majority of people who 'hack' don't actually hack but rely on the tools developed by the few incredibly talented people around - until such tools exist (Map editors, Stat editors, etc) there isn't going to be much migration.

If more people are able to hex edit and research more, it could be possible to actually do layout editing. Since the 4th and 5th Generation basically has mostly layout and structure objects.

Since I've been too busy on other things, I haven't even learned how to hex edit.

From what I also heard, before there was tools such as AdvanceMap, people used to hex edit more and research.

What happens if we forget about AdvanceMap and move onto researching 4th Generation editing?
It may take some time effort to edit, but prahaps tools and all that may be some good assistance for it. I've also known that Nintendo uses like about 100 people on their team for developing the games on NDS.

And what if I started my own Pokémon HeartGold hack?
Hm... lets see... all the NDS ROMs have 134,217,728 bytes (128 MB).

Which means there are free space things in it which keep the size of the NDS file.

I'm sure a lot of people are able to edit the music in the game. And what about... changing the instruments as well?

I think there are fillings in the NDS files to keep the allocated size.

And we all know the NDS file uses different folders to keep the contents of stuff. All it just needs... is a bit of editing of a single file inside the NDS file.

Lemme UnPack Pokémon Ranger: Hikari no Kiseki (Guardian Signs) using DSBuff...

...

OK, I'm going into the data folder... then the next data folder, and into the map folder.

Wow, look at this! I have managed to find all the map data in here.

A lot of you might know this already, but if we can manage to load all those .acf files... and edit them... then there would be a way of editing the layout of the maps and structure objects to place on the certain map.

The map editor might need a bit of self extraction of the whole NDS file to load the .acf files and compressing the ROM when saving.

Because all the .nds file have to be about 128 MBs.

But when the .nds file is extracted, it shows less space in the extracted folder than what it normally does on the .nds file.

Like the ROM of Pokémon Ranger: Hikari no Kiseki (Guardian Signs) I extracted had about 110 MB (116,190,240 bytes).

And if we don't keep researching more and always keep making GBA hacks all the time... then we'll never get around into map editing on the 4th Generation, not to be mean or anything... but it is true.

I have to stop getting distracted by other things and start researching and start learning to hex edit HeartGold.

 

[Destiny.]

I can't see it happening, almost at all, either. This is for several reasons.

Firstly, as others have said before, emulators for the DS are negligible. The most popular of these are No$ and DeSMuMe, which are pretty much the only ones capable of dealing with commercial, particularly Pokemon, ROMs. I have 3.32 GHZ on my PC in total (Dual Cores) and regularly emulate at 50~65 FPS on DeSMuMe. Even counting the fact that that emulator doesn't work with the cores well, my PC is quite decent. On the GBA emulator VBA Link, I can run FireRed or Emerald easily at 220%, even my iTouch 2G can run them on gpsphone at approximatively full speed.

No$GBA 2.6a, the only DS emulator CAPABLE of running full speed on a decent computer, was last updated in 2008. The creator mysteriously disappeared. And still I tell you, No$ was not enough to fool the HGSS Anti Piracy, without Rudolph's Child Play patch. So before anyone even ATTEMPTS to start hacking 4th Gen, someone better solve this emulator problem. I can almost guarantee we won't even be able to start Pokemon Black and White on an emulator, let alone save or work a way to hack it!

Not too hard! Trust me, I know that it's HARD for people to actually produce a working AP patch at the moment? o.o;

 

[Rawr_I_r_Andii]

The DS and the GBA have many many differences which would make the DS much more difficult to hack or even make tools. for one, even if textures could be made for a DS pokemon hack, how could you be sure it is placed right? also, there are the layers, if not edited right those would screw things up. I believe that sticking with GBA hacking will be our best bet, with the tools for the GBA we have, and with the tools people will make, I am sure a GBA hack can keep up with a couple generations to come for a bit, and by the time they can't, people would already see its demise in hacking and would be working on more advanced tools and such for hacking that the migration would be much easier. I do agree, we will not see migration soon, and I hope for this, Pokemon NEVER should of went Three-Dee, good idea and people rage about it at first, but soon it bores and gets dull.

 

[Platinum Lucario]

I still wish I could be able to just hex edit and research more.

At least I now know about the map files and stuff

But it is nowhere even near getting replaced by the 4th generation hacking.
But we do hope for it to happen sooner or later, 'cause I'm getting tired of just seeing two dimentional games. Not to be mean or anything, I'm sure some people would be the same.

So before anyone even ATTEMPTS to start hacking 4th Gen, someone better solve this emulator problem. I can almost guarantee we won't even be able to start Pokemon Black and White on an emulator, let alone save or work a way to hack it!

You HAVE got a point there. I don't think ANY Emulator will be able to be compatible with DSi games or games with DSi features in it.

Seeing as the console code for Pokémon Black and Pokémon White is "TWL" not "NTR"... that will mean it will be DSi enhanced.

Which means... EVEN the DeSmuME might crash upon attemping to load the game.

So yeah... pretty much... we're gonna be screwed by the time Black and White comes out, maybe.

Which means we might have to buy an R4 or something in order to play it.

 

[Xenesis]

If more people are able to hex edit and research more, it could be possible to actually do layout editing. Since the 4th and 5th Generation basically has mostly layout and structure objects.

Being able to use a hex editor is like...the basics. Unless you've got enough people that have some basic competence with assembly and the like some of the more esoteric parts will probably take a long time to figure out.

Stuff like a lot of the recent stuff in the research forum (Anything JPAN does, either) would likely be impossible without any ASM work.

As a system gets more complicated having an understanding of the inner workings is basically essential :/

 

[Jerme]

I can't see it happening, almost at all, either. This is for several reasons.

Firstly, as others have said before, emulators for the DS are negligible. The most popular of these are No$ and DeSMuMe, which are pretty much the only ones capable of dealing with commercial, particularly Pokemon, ROMs. I have 3.32 GHZ on my PC in total (Dual Cores) and regularly emulate at 50~65 FPS on DeSMuMe. Even counting the fact that that emulator doesn't work with the cores well, my PC is quite decent. On the GBA emulator VBA Link, I can run FireRed or Emerald easily at 220%, even my iTouch 2G can run them on gpsphone at approximatively full speed.

No$GBA 2.6a, the only DS emulator CAPABLE of running full speed on a decent computer, was last updated in 2008. The creator mysteriously disappeared. And still I tell you, No$ was not enough to fool the HGSS Anti Piracy, without Rudolph's Child Play patch. So before anyone even ATTEMPTS to start hacking 4th Gen, someone better solve this emulator problem. I can almost guarantee we won't even be able to start Pokemon Black and White on an emulator, let alone save or work a way to hack it!

Not too hard! Trust me, I know that it's HARD for people to actually produce a working AP patch at the moment? o.o;

that's where flash cards come in.

 

[Chaos Rush]

I can't see it happening, almost at all, either. This is for several reasons.

Firstly, as others have said before, emulators for the DS are negligible. The most popular of these are No$ and DeSMuMe, which are pretty much the only ones capable of dealing with commercial, particularly Pokemon, ROMs. I have 3.32 GHZ on my PC in total (Dual Cores) and regularly emulate at 50~65 FPS on DeSMuMe. Even counting the fact that that emulator doesn't work with the cores well, my PC is quite decent. On the GBA emulator VBA Link, I can run FireRed or Emerald easily at 220%, even my iTouch 2G can run them on gpsphone at approximatively full speed.

No$GBA 2.6a, the only DS emulator CAPABLE of running full speed on a decent computer, was last updated in 2008. The creator mysteriously disappeared. And still I tell you, No$ was not enough to fool the HGSS Anti Piracy, without Rudolph's Child Play patch. So before anyone even ATTEMPTS to start hacking 4th Gen, someone better solve this emulator problem. I can almost guarantee we won't even be able to start Pokemon Black and White on an emulator, let alone save or work a way to hack it!

Not too hard! Trust me, I know that it's HARD for people to actually produce a working AP patch at the moment? o.o;

To be honest, I think playing Pokemon games/hacks on the computer is no fun. I prefer to play it on the system it was meant to be played, not on the computer. That's what flashcards are for. If if was impossible to play hacks on their original system, then I would quit hacking.

 

[Weavile05]

If we can get a decent map editor for 4th gen, we will have alot of what we need to hack 4th gen.

 

[Jerme]

To be honest, I think playing Pokemon games/hacks on the computer is no fun. I prefer to play it on the system it was meant to be played, not on the computer. That's what flashcards are for. If if was impossible to play hacks on their original system, then I would quit hacking.

ha ha i play some super mario world hacks on my nintendo ds...but then most arent emulated perfectly but i can live with it

and as for hex editing, i seriously don't think that it's likely i will ever become an expert hex editor then make a map hacking program with my awesome hex editing skills then release the program and become a well known hacker...thats why theres computer geniuses

 

[Platinum Lucario]

To be honest, I think playing Pokemon games/hacks on the computer is no fun. I prefer to play it on the system it was meant to be played, not on the computer. That's what flashcards are for. If if was impossible to play hacks on their original system, then I would quit hacking.

Ah, I forgot about that! Of course... flash cards!

Well I've done some research on the ROMs with DSi features on them... as well as the DSi exclusive ones.
The DSi exclusive games and the DSi enhanced ones have the same file extension as the Nintendo DS games. Wow, I bet you guys didn't know about that.
That's right, the file extension for both DSi enhanced and exclusive ones are ".nds".
But the only problem is... the DSi exclusive games don't work on any DS emulator.

BUT... the DSi enhanced ones work just as good on the DeSmuME emulator. So it'll be no problem working with Pokémon Black and Pokémon White.
Except for some lagging and all that, but meh... shouldn't be so much of a problem.
What we know is that by the looks of the 3D graphics and all that probably will slow it down, but more than what it was on Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver.

Anyways... for 4th Generation hacking to take over will require pretty much of a 3D Map editor for the 4th generation like what Weavile05 explained.
The question is... how to make one.

We know that every map has 3D in it, while the inside of the buildings have it all flattened down by the map offset.

The thing is... how to learn how to edit HeartGold from scratch.
First one would have to be... doing some mucking aroung with the hex editor on certain maps as explained in the threads here on PC. I'm pretty sure they have it in Documents and Tutorials.

But then... I would also have to be sure of also extracting the contents from the .nds file. Looking into the mapdata folder, two things... map layout and the structure objects. Oh and don't forget about the textures either.

As soon as I learn programing... I'm gonna do a lot of attempts to build the first ever 3D map editor for the 4th generation.

First thing I have to do is to stop going onto the chats and stuff to get away from the distraction.

 

[6ryan4]

It's hard to say...I highly doubt it though. Generation 3 is very simple and easy, yet so much can be done with it.

 

[Masterge77]

I'm still waiting for more tools for Gen 2

 

[6ryan4]

Meh, I don't like the idea of hacking Gen 1 or 2...

 

[SonicBlazePlatinum]

Masterge77- Learn to hex edit, it's not that hard, even Coolboyman said that.

I prefer Generation 3 hacking since Generation 4 is very good as in Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver. Generation 1 and 2 hacks are interesting. As for Generation 3, Ruby seemed kinda boring and fun, Fire Red is kind of a simple remake,while Emerald has a ton of new interesting features some include Pokemon Crystal's animation idea, tag battles, Battle Frontier which are things that are in Generation 4. Except Diamond and Pearl only had the Battle Tower and seemed too bland. Platinum improved everything.

So in other words Generation 4 hacking won't replace Generation 3 hacking until a long while. However there is a Generation 4 hex editor on Mewthree9000's website. Honestly I prefer Fire Red hacking/ROM hacks the most.

 

[Xenesis]

Tools only exist to make repetitive tasks easier :|

If you *need* a tool to do your editing for you then you've got some work to do. (I say that as 95% of the tools on the toolbox forum are useless things that you could do just as easily, if not more easily with a hex editor)

Really, the only things you'd actually want an editor for you have for Gen 1-3: A map editor and a nice pokemon/trainer editor (if I recall). Mapping in hex is nightmarish and it's easy to get lost in big lists...but otherwise everything is fluff and you just need to find the data files/offsets they live in.

 

[Elite Trainer Red]

Am i the only one that has thought of making some sort of Google Sketchup Plugin for editing the Models?