Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[ABYAY]

yeah, Bliss is easily beatable by any stat-upper or physical fighting move. Garchomp isn't easily beaten by Ice because hello many different moves to counter those who use it. Also, with its base 106 HP, 95 defense, and 85 sp. defense, those are just really strong.

I can sense Dragonite trying to take over Chomp's job, but there's just one thing...NOT POSSIBLE! Dragonite may have better defenses (I think 95 defense and 100 sp.def), but its HP is much lower, it's much slower, and although it's unharmed by spikes, SR does 1/4 damage to the old-school dragon. Fortunately, it has a trick on its wings with the ability to Dragon Dance AND Outrage, which gives it one advantage over both of the other big dragons in the game. Of course, T-Tar could pull the BS DD Outrage through proper breeding (I think).

One thing that can help you avoid fate is Inner Focus. An example of this is when you're faced against Flinch-hax Togekiss. Also, the starting Fake Out Ambipom is useless when you don't flinch, and o look; free Dragon Dance setup! (This would be if you dared run a DD-Nite as a starter)

Anyway, I think I'm done for now. I hope this cleared up some potential gameplay changes with seeing more of the oldest dragon around.

 

[silver%]

ehh do what you want about garchomp i dont use garchomp anyways i still dont see what is to fear..i probably shoulda picked a better EXAMPLE other than bliss but eh sometimes we all make mistakes. i still hate the fat pink blob and her overly defensive parnter~_~" but if you think about it.. in just 3 or 4 moves you could make blissey pretty much an uber if you thought about it* gets back on subject* well im not gonna defend chomp it is kinda annoying to miss a move that would pretty much kill it but i thought thats what hp ice was for and if ppl would balence and switch pokemon more properly rather than the reckless "i think i can counter with this" theory they wouldnt end up being mence meat but eh wheather we ban it or not something else is just gonna take its place and hopefully we wont end up bored and start banning treccos and rattatta....

 

[airconditioning]

ehh do what you want about garchomp i dont use garchomp anyways i still dont see what is to fear..i probably shoulda picked a better EXAMPLE other than bliss but eh sometimes we all make mistakes. i still hate the fat pink blob and her overly defensive parnter~_~" but if you think about it.. in just 3 or 4 moves you could make blissey pretty much an uber if you thought about it* gets back on subject* well im not gonna defend chomp it is kinda annoying to miss a move that would pretty much kill it but i thought thats what hp ice was for and if ppl would balence and switch pokemon more properly rather than the reckless "i think i can counter with this" theory they wouldnt end up being mence meat but eh wheather we ban it or not something else is just gonna take its place and hopefully we wont end up bored and start banning treccos and rattatta....

This is the reason I was worried the Garchomp ban wouldn't work here- because of people who have no idea why Garchomp is being banned in the first place, and won't understand no matter how much you explain. Because hey, they've beaten Garchomp before! It's not too tough!

 

[silver%]

This is the reason I was worried the Garchomp ban wouldn't work here- because of people who have no idea why Garchomp is being banned in the first place, and won't understand no matter how much you explain. Because hey, they've beaten Garchomp before! It's not too tough!

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party. chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there. its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it. sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp. theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat. Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

 

[Anti]

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party.

That proves nothing. If you would please tell me one safe switch into Garchomp I would most appreciate it...but you can't. Nobody can. Exactly why it's uber. Killing Garchomp is easy, all you do is sacrifice something and revenge kill it. Problem is, that's about as good a method as there is for stopping it.

chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there.

So tell me what happens when those sashers switch into SR or a sandstorm is up? you can't stall Garchomp either, SD Life Orb Outrage 3HKOs the best defenseive steel in the game and that's forgetting that we have the ever-trusty Fire Fang at our side.

Also, Sand Veil means you ice attack could miss. If it does, you're pretty much toast. Also, the only first turn attack that can OHKO Garchomp is Ice Shard, and there isn't one Ice Shard user that can survive the switch-in :/

its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it.

I don't use it either :/ That's irrelevant anyways.

You fail to see the point - The is no wall that is a safe switch into Garchomp. PERIOD. Also, to get off a supereffective attack you have to survive its attacks, and again, there isn't a pokemon in the game that is a safe switch.

sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over

Again, how much YOU use it is irrelevant, lol. That land Shark has a very high-powered STAB move, incredible attack and very good bulky, not to mention access to SD and several threatening sets.

....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp.

I'm sorry to be rude, but this is just ridiculous. If you send out Butterfree to counter Garchomp you fail at competitive battling...either that or your team sucks. Also, thinking ahead of time isn't good enough.

theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat.

Yeah, good luck surviving the switch-in and outspeeding Garchomp to sleep it, lol. Not to mention that if by some miracle you did get off sleep Powder, it could miss.

Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

lol, before making such accusations I would learn something about battling before spurting out such hyperbole.

I support Garchomp's move to the uber tier. Mostly because there isn't a counterargument to keep it in standard play.

 

[Ooka]

I support Garchomp's move to the uber tier. Mostly because there isn't a counterargument to keep it in standard play.

I look up to you for that post, because you just did what I'm too impatient and lazy to do ._.

 

[silver%]

.......do what you want

dosent matter any more because everyone sides with uber chomp and it dosent affect me so i shouldnt even be defending it. and thank you for not being rude as annoying as all of that may have been but i give up w/e everyone else says goes theres no way around it. just because i seem to get around garchomps easily dosent mean everyone else can and i most not be seeing that because i so busy being stuck on a lost cause. uber chomp it is no one can get around it so it may aswell be declared now...(didnt take much to shut me up huh)

 

[FourFourTwo]

I just want to put my 2 cents in. Even when I used to run a hail team, not too long ago, whenever I saw a garchomp, I'd get nervous. This is with me having 3-4 ice pokemon on my team, with hail up, and 2 of them with snow cloak. Now, snow cloak is just as good an ability as sand veil, but like everyone says, there isnt really a safe switch. I used to switch in my mamoswine on a garchomp (it has snow cloak), and PRAY that chomp would miss, and then ice shard it. That being said, it usually didnt miss >.>

Now, it would tear through 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 of my ICE team, before i took it down. It usually took a focus sashed frosslass in the hail to REVENGE kill it.

So I completely support this move to uber

 

[sims796]

Seems I can now lose Dragon Claw on my Sceptile for revenge killing Chomp. Of course, not if it had Scarf, but I'd have some way to try to prepare. Looks like I can use Earthquake.

 

[Ársa]

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party. chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there. its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it. sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp. theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat. Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

~Why Garchomp Should be Banned~

This thread has been used to discuss whether or not Garchomp should be banned from OU play. Our reasoning is that Garchomp has too few counters, and these counters are never a 100% chance. For instance, if Garchomp is in play with Sandstorm, it's evasion is increased by 20%. This means that a Choice Band Weavile using Ice Shard has a 4/5 chance of hitting Garchomp, which isn't bad, but if it misses, that is good game. Here are some calculations run by the people in Strategies and Movesets:

v ~Choice Band Garchomp~ v

Garchomp@Choice Band

Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%​

​

v ~Swords Dance Garchomp~ v​

Garchomp@Life Orb

16 HP / 252 ATT / 240 SPEED
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Blast

People who think switching steels into Outrages is safe, think again =/

As if the swords dance set wasnt scary enough...

The following are calcs of Life Orb Swords Danced Outrage vs Common steel types

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 43.71% - 51.50%

Max HP/Max Def Impish Skarmory




Defender HP: 338
Damage: 166 - 196
Damage: 49.11% - 57.99%

Max Hp/Max def Impish Bronzong



Defender HP: 404
Damage: 185 - 217
Damage: 45.79% - 53.71%

Max Hp/Max Def + Nature Jirachi


Defender HP: 354
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 41.24% - 48.59%

Max HP / Max Def Impish/Relaxed Forretress (With SR this is a 2hko)


Defender HP: 364
Damage: 154 - 181
Damage: 42.31% - 49.73%

Max HP/Max def Impish Metagross


Defender HP: 386
Damage: 177 - 208
Damage: 45.85% - 53.89%

Max HP / Max def Bold Heatran


Non-Steels

Defender HP: 420
Damage: 329 - 387
Damage: 78.33% - 92.14%

Max Hp/max Def Impish hippowdon

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 317 - 372
Damage: 89.55% - 105.08%

Max hp / Max def Impish Gliscor


Defender HP: 334
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 97.60% - 114.67%


Max hp/Max def Bold Weezing


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%


Max hp/Max def Bold Suicune

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 346 - 407
Damage: 87.82% - 103.30%

Max hp/Max def Bold Slowbro


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%

Max HP / Max def Bold Cresselia


Defender HP: 394
Damage: 429 - 504
Damage: 108.88% - 127.92%

Max HP/Max def Impish gyarados (I didnt do bulky gyara, i did this for a laugh)


Defender HP: 384
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 84.90% - 99.74%

Max Hp/Max Def Impish Donphan


Note : These ev spreads are not normal, some of these pokemon run less def evs than this, i used Max/Max to demonstrate how nasty this set is.

The good news is that there is ONE steel that does not get 2/3hkod by a sd Outrage on this set, this is : - Max HP / Max def Steelix (31%-37%) =).


Max hp / max def Bastiodon, probopass, Aggron, even Registeel get 3hko'd with sd outrage (Some of these get 2hko's if SR is up =/)

To prove this

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 139 - 163
Damage: 38.19% - 44.78%

Max HP / max def + DEf nature Registeel.

This is what i call Broken, its most common switch ins cannot live more than 2 hits from this set. Even the ones that can, you better pray to god that you havent taken ANY damage throughout the whole battle and that SR/Spikes, are not up.


This set may also bit easy to revenge kill, but i hope you realize that if Sandstorm is up, things may be a little more difficult. Even more so that some/most of these Switch ins, DO NOT HAVE A Recovery move, so cannot come in more than once or twice.​

v ~Currently Strong Arguments For Banning~ v​

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S​

​

SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

Now basically silver, you must now contest everything stated there. Please read particularly well the damage calculations and my post(s). Then see if you want to continue...

~T_S




​

 

[Dark Azelf]

Could one of you tell a Mod to put T_S post in the announcement or put it on the first page here, i REALLY feel this needs to be seen.

 

[Loto]

I completely agree with this idea as well. I mean I've won games due to Sand Veil and lost them because of my opponents sand veil. It's just TOO MUCH LUCK based. I hate it so much....Why couldn't it have like intimidate or something? That would solve this whole problem really. =/

 

[XEL]

can someone please explain to me how to read T_S's calculations?

 

[Dark Azelf]

can someone please explain to me how to read T_S's calculations?

Its how much the pokemon takes, say you see 50%-56% , then thats half the defending pokemons hp gone, the percents just tell you how much the defending poke takes in terms of damage.

 

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

WTF is Garchomp doing in uber?

Deoxys-E in OU I can understand, but Garchomp in Uber? Do you really think he does well ther? He is weak enough for OU! Just Ice Beam the damm beast! Or use a wall like Hippowdon, that worked very well for me.

 

[sims796]

Maybe you should try looking at the arguments for him being uber. Why does everyone ignore all evidence for him being uber, to say the same thing, that's already been disproven?

 

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

WTF ?????????????
Banning Garchomp is the most stupid thing that I ever heard! And why Garchomp, and not other hard to counter Pokemon like Blissey? That thing is almost unbeatable! Physical attacks just bounce right back with Counter for an instant kill! And the damage gets Softboiled away afterward! And the Special attacks just bounce of the Sponge like nothing happened! Toxic gets cured right away by
Natural Cure / Aromatherapy! Those are just a few examples of the many things that Blissey can do! Blissey is so strong, she is absolutely NOT weaker than Garchomp! And Blissey actually is usable in Ubers! Many people even use her in the ubertier!

Edit: And I know why you think that he should be uber.
Because of Sandstream making him absolutely unbeatable and because of his unbeatable 102 and because of his double Ice Weakness and so on. But now look at my arguments why Blissey should be uber then. Are you going to make Blissey uber too? Yeah, sure, why not just make every OU Pokemon uber as well! Or shall we just randomly place some strong Pokes in the uber and other Strong Pokes in the OU so that we do not have to counter that much anymore?

 

[sims796]

Oh boy. Another troll.

First off, Counter Bliss sucks.

Second, she is easy to counter. Very easy. Any fighting move brings her down. Most of any STAB physicals brings her down. Porygon ZZ can bring her down. My Raichu brings her down.

As I said LOOK AT ALL OF THE POST SAYING WHY HE SHOULD BE UBER. Everything you said have been countered already, but you aren't taking to time to read on why he should be uber, you're just trolling on with things that have been said.

If you feel Bliss should be uber, make a thread.

 

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

Counter Bliss sucks? Yeah, killing almost all your counters in one move indead sucks. And your Raichu must be hacked then. And Porygon-Z will most likely need to get Paralyzed to counter, or he would need to Recharge after his Hyper Beam, both situations which may make him useless.

Blissey may have one fight Weakness, but that is way better than having a Dragon and a double Ice Weakness. And Blissey is used in ubers, Garchomp is not, why would that be?

Serious, none of what I am saying has been countered.

 

[luke]

Okay listen. I fully support Garchomp being uber. Why? Well, here a few reasons why its counters don't do all that well in OU:

Ice-Types are hindered in OU. Stealth Rock makes it difficult for them to switch in and Garchomp usually carries a powerful Fire-type attack (Swords-Danced Fire Fang, Fire Blast, etc.).

Non Ice-type Pokemon need to reach a certain Special Attack number to OHKO it with Ice Beam / Ice Shard / etc. This takes away EV points from other stats that would otherwise benefit the Pokemon. Thus, having to alter your EV spread to counter one Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame.

Blissey on the otherhand is easily OHKO'd to 2HKO'd by a great deal of Physical Pokemon. Thus, it's easy to counter.

Raichu can OHKO with a Focus Punch. Tada. So it's not hacked. Now come up with some solid facts that actually support that Garchomp belongs in OU that can't be countered what has been said. This a movement being discussed throughout the entire Pokemon community, so don't think it's only a PC thing.